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I really like Hulk's new BA list a lot. Are you guys playing on Vassal?

G

Yes, we play on Vassal.

Although next month I'm flying to California and we'll be playing in person.

Dashofpepper wrote:Although next month I'm flying to California and we'll be playing in person.

You playing in the GT there? The one at the Santa Clara Marriott?

No, the one at the Ontario Convention Center. The SoCal Slaughter in Space

olympia wrote:How DE stack up against the new nids?

A proper DE list will smash the New Nids every single game. Usually with a board wiped clean turn 4 or 5.



As per the Hive guard comment, they have terrible range, its really easy just to stay at 36" kill all the bugs but the guard and then move flat out next to the guard and clean them up.

Clthomps wrote:A proper DE list will smash the New Nids every single game. Usually with a board wiped clean turn 4 or 5.

I have to agree with this. I've been playing DE since about 2001-2002, and I can only recall one game against Tyranids that gave my DE difficulty.

There is so much S8 AP2 weaponry in the DE force, that the current codex MC's can't last very long. Most 'Nid armies currently work off the synergy provided by MC's like the Tyrant and Tervigon. Once they're gone, it isn't terribly hard to pick apart the rest of the army one unit at a time.

For an old and outdated codex the DE are pretty OP.
I so hope they will be nerfed back to balance with their upcoming codex.

Pyriel- wrote:For an old and outdated codex the DE are pretty OP.
I so hope they will be nerfed back to balance with their upcoming codex.

Nerfed back to balance.....*laughing*

The codex has exactly one viable build. One usable troop choice. One usable elite choice. One usable heavy support choice.

If by nerfed back to balance you mean that dark lances get 10 points more expensive, but are now mounted on an AV12 front raider, nightshields drop in price, troop choices are expanded to include things like "Oh hay!! Mandrakes assaulting you out of thin air," Grotesques turned into something useful on the field, and key items reworded (like a Nightmare Doll) so that there is no argument about them in 5th edition....then sure.

I wouldn't mind a balanced codex that could take multiple different builds like every other codex out there. As of right now, there are quite a few lists that DE pretty much auto-lose against. Worse, there simply *is* no way to tune the DE list to defeat those builds, because you're already using what the codex has to offer.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:For an old and outdated codex the DE are pretty OP.
I so hope they will be nerfed back to balance with their upcoming codex.

Nerfed back to balance.....*laughing*

The codex has exactly one viable build. One usable troop choice. One usable elite choice. One usable heavy support choice.

If by nerfed back to balance you mean that dark lances get 10 points more expensive, but are now mounted on an AV12 front raider, nightshields drop in price, troop choices are expanded to include things like "Oh hay!! Mandrakes assaulting you out of thin air," Grotesques turned into something useful on the field, and key items reworded (like a Nightmare Doll) so that there is no argument about them in 5th edition....then sure.

I wouldn't mind a balanced codex that could take multiple different builds like every other codex out there. As of right now, there are quite a few lists that DE pretty much auto-lose against. Worse, there simply *is* no way to tune the DE list to defeat those builds, because you're already using what the codex has to offer.

Now, be fair, DE have TWO viable Builds. Raider Squad Spam and Wyche Cult Spam

Gwar! wrote:

Now, be fair, DE have TWO viable Builds. Raider Squad Spam and Wyche Cult Spam

I don't think Wych cults are viable right now. 5th edition is all about meching up and in a wych cult army, you simply don't have enough dark lances. Unless you make your ravagers have dark lances, which severely compromises your anti-troop / anti-horde abilities.

Nerfed back to balance.....*laughing*

The codex has exactly one viable build. One usable troop choice. One usable elite choice. One usable heavy support choice.

Yes and that one (two actually) build is OP as hell!

Its like saying grey knights dont need balance since they have one single build and that is 3 landraiders in as few points as possible.
That build is OP and wins pretty much against most things but outside that they are utter crap.

If by nerfed back to balance you mean that dark lances get 10 points more expensive, but are now mounted on an AV12 front raider, nightshields drop in price, troop choices are expanded to include things like "Oh hay!! Mandrakes assaulting you out of thin air," Grotesques turned into something useful on the field, and key items reworded (like a Nightmare Doll) so that there is no argument about them in 5th edition....then sure.

Yes with proper point adjustments so we dont get the tiresome DE cheese circus of naked chicks that massacre everything in melee, 2+ inv save melee monster HQs and dirt cheap assault boats that get cover saves or the lance spam from hell that puts IG mech to ruins on turn one.

Then yes I agree.

there are quite a few lists that DE pretty much auto-lose against.

Such as?
Besides the same problem all other codexes have. Well except the eldar flying circus but that is another point.

Pyriel- wrote:

there are quite a few lists that DE pretty much auto-lose against.
Such as?
Besides the same problem all other codexes have. Well except the eldar flying circus but that is another point.

You play Salamanders. A DE raider spam list is specifically designed to kill YOUR list. YOUR army. And regular MEQ armies. Not sure why you'd be surprised that a list designed to kill yours is beating you. =p

Horde orks, mechanized IG, and spacewolf razorback / longfang spam have ready answers to DE.

You play Salamanders. A DE raider spam list is specifically designed to kill YOUR list. YOUR army. And regular MEQ armies. Not sure why you'd be surprised that a list designed to kill yours is beating you. =p

Lol thanks for painting yourself into a corner

LEt me explain.
Most armies are MEQ.
DE build is OP against MEQ, it is as you just said it, designed to beat them (space marines).

If my army was by default designed to beat the crap out of the vast majority of 40k armies people would scream OP cheese right away but as it is DE is that army.

Ergo: I want DE to be nerfed back to balance. I don´t want any army to be based on killing the majority of other 40k armies out there, that is biased crap and an epic fail on the part of the design team, not proper balance!

There might be the occasional specialist army coming out like grey knights that might be made into a vs deamons thing but I highly doubt it as people want to use their armies in an against all environment and want them to be balanced at that too.

Pyriel- wrote:

You play Salamanders. A DE raider spam list is specifically designed to kill YOUR list. YOUR army. And regular MEQ armies. Not sure why you'd be surprised that a list designed to kill yours is beating you. =p

Lol thanks for painting yourself into a corner

LEt me explain.
Most armies are MEQ.
DE build is OP against MEQ, it is as you just said it, designed to beat them (space marines).

If my army was by default designed to beat the crap out of the vast majority of 40k armies people would scream OP cheese right away but as it is DE is that army.

Ergo: I want DE to be nerfed back to balance. I don´t want any army to be based on killing the majority of other 40k armies out there, that is biased crap and an epic fail on the part of the design team, not proper balance!

I disagree with the bolded assertion, in the absence of any quantifiable data. (Also, you're misrepresenting Dash's statement: "regular MEQ armies" and "all MEQ armies" aren't necessarily equivalent - there are MEQ armies that do well enough against DE.)

More to the point, most armies can tailor a list to target a specific opponent (I assure you, my tyranids don't appreciate Vulcan's twin-linked flamers & meltas!), but often at the cost of being "balanced" to handle all comers. It's just the DE misfortune that their ONLY useful builds are tilted in this manner; they don't have a good option for a "balanced" list. That has less to do with "biased crap and an epic fail" than the simple truth that their codex is over 10 years old, and was written for a version of the game that we haven't played since 2004. In the days of rhino-rushes, consolidating from combat to combat, and models blocking up to twice their height, DE were able to field a wider variety of options.

A SW razorback & Long-fang spam list (or the somewhat gentler SM equivalent) can handle DE just fine.

I play mech guard, and I frequently play against DE. If I get first turn I will usually table my opponent by turn 2, and if I don't get first turn then its more of a fair fight but I almost always win. Its the fact that dark lances will kill a vehicle only 7% of the time. Couple that with AV12 spam so that the lance effect is worthless "You are reducing my AV12 to 12...oh dear!" and the fact that the multi-laser is the perfect anti-raider weapon and you have a recipe for victory

Indeed. I just find it funny that someone who is likely running a dual redeemer landraider list with Vulkan and...probably a couple support units is crying foul that he can't beat an army designed to beat him, when most other folks handle it just fine.

I disagree with the bolded assertion, in the absence of any quantifiable data. (Also, you're misrepresenting Dash's statement: "regular MEQ armies" and "all MEQ armies" aren't necessarily equivalent - there are MEQ armies that do well enough against DE.)

Then you are wrong. GW sales say otherwise, SM are the foremost army that sells and MEQ are most numerous in tournament play.

Indeed. I just find it funny that someone who is likely running a dual redeemer landraider list with Vulkan and...probably a couple support units is crying foul that he can't beat an army designed to beat him, when most other folks handle it just fine.

What is funny is the totally flawed assumption that I run whatever it now is that I am supposedly running.

What is even more funny is the assumption that I speak of my own accord and thus effort is made by dash to make me look like I´m biased (failed but nice try). I dont have problems beating DE but I know a lot of other players that do.

Next time you try and assume things dont, just ask me instead, it look better that way.

Besides, I dont even own a redeemer.


My point stand:
Majority of armies are MEQ.
DE default build is designed to beat MEQ.
DE need a nerf to be balanced with all armies and not to specifically beat the most prevailing one.

So far no one can disprove this and all I hear is "I dont think MEQ are numerous" and "you probably play double redeemers".
Solid argumentation I´d say, lol
*sigh*

Dash hasn't won against any of my MEQ's yet. He's tied one (this army) when he should have won but he hasn't actually beaten it officially yet

The DE player at the last Indy GT only finished around 9th or 10th I believe overall and lost against 2 MEQ armies in the course of that.

So I assert that the default build isn't designed to beat MEQ's. Just as solid of an arguement as yours since yours is also based off personal views.

Pyriel- wrote:

I disagree with the bolded assertion, in the absence of any quantifiable data. (Also, you're misrepresenting Dash's statement: "regular MEQ armies" and "all MEQ armies" aren't necessarily equivalent - there are MEQ armies that do well enough against DE.)

Then you are wrong. GW sales say otherwise, SM are the foremost army that sells and MEQ are most numerous in tournament play.

"Show me the money." You've now gone from "Most armies are MEQ" to "SM are the foremost army that sells" and "MEQ are most numerous in tournament play." First, MEQ covers all SM variants, CSM, and Necrons. Second, "most numerous" is NOT the same as "a majority." Third, that's a lovely sweeping generalization based on (I assume) anecdotal data; at the tournaments I've been attending, MEQs are certainly NOT a majority.

My point stand:
Majority of armies are MEQ.
DE default build is designed to beat MEQ.
DE need a nerf to be balanced with all armies and not to specifically beat the most prevailing one.

So far no one can disprove this and all I hear is "I dont think MEQ are numerous" and "you probably play double redeemers".
Solid argumentation I´d say, lol

Strawman. There was adequate discussion of your "point" above, which you chose to ignore in order to fasten on two minor points.

In my experience, as I also play as dark eldar, you NEED the first turn. If you don't get it, you have the choice of setting up and hoping not to get slaughtered, or putting everything in reserve which is also less than ideal. Dawn of War is the only deployment that allows you to go second and have a shot. Tyranids although I have not played against them with DE, I imagine they would get stomped by DE most of the time

The DE player at the last Indy GT only finished around 9th or 10th I believe overall and lost against 2 MEQ armies in the course of that.

Out of how many?

So I assert that the default build isn't designed to beat MEQ's. Just as solid of an arguement as yours since yours is also based off personal views.

With the difference in that I do not talk about Dash in 3rd person to others while making assumptions about how he plays in order to make him look biased and thus invalidate his claims.
That seems fair?

"Show me the money." You've now gone from "Most armies are MEQ" to "SM are the foremost army that sells" and "MEQ are most numerous in tournament play." First, MEQ covers all SM variants, CSM, and Necrons. Second, "most numerous" is NOT the same as "a majority." Third, that's a lovely sweeping generalization based on (I assume) anecdotal data; at the tournaments I've been attending, MEQs are certainly NOT a majority.

Likewise, show me your money!
you claim otherwise and I take it a simple research into what armies GW sell the most will put an end to it. Last time I checked SM/MEQ sold the most followed by a close Tau but things could have change. Where is your proof now again, all I hear are your personal opinions as well so dont try to sound like you are any more correct.

Strawman. There was adequate discussion of your "point" above, which you chose to ignore in order to fasten on two minor points.

Strawman?
LOL Dont throw stones in glass houses dude. Till then I dont take you seriously.

In my experience, as I also play as dark eldar, you NEED the first turn. If you don't get it, you have the choice of setting up and hoping not to get slaughtered, or putting everything in reserve which is also less than ideal. Dawn of War is the only deployment that allows you to go second and have a shot. Tyranids although I have not played against them with DE, I imagine they would get stomped by DE most of the time

Yeah, nids would probably walk over them with ease if they had a balanced build that is.
Otherwise I hate armies that need a certain turn to win but when they get it they steamroll most opposition.
Lets hope GW will make a really really good and balanced and fun codex for them.

I disagree with the bolded assertion, in the absence of any quantifiable data. (Also, you're misrepresenting Dash's statement: "regular MEQ armies" and "all MEQ armies" aren't necessarily equivalent - there are MEQ armies that do well enough against DE.)

Then you are wrong. GW sales say otherwise, SM are the foremost army that sells and MEQ are most numerous in tournament play.

There-in is the problem. DE are not OP, MEQ is to common. Instead of "nerfing" a codex GW should just update more non-MEQ codex. The reason sales and tourney data is skewed towards meq can be easily attributed to codex releases.

Space Marines (MEQ)
IG (non-MEQ)
Space wolves (MEQ)
Tyranids (non-MEQ)
Blood Angels (MEQ)
Deamonhunters / Witchhunters (MEQ)

Then the rumors are after that is Necrons another MEQ army...



Now lets look at the list of playable armies:

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Daemonhunters
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Witch Hunters

8 MEQ (including SM flavors) This will soon be 7 as they are combining WH and DH.
7 Non-MEQ

There-in is the problem. DE are not OP, MEQ is to common. Instead of "nerfing" a codex GW should just update more non-MEQ codex. The reason sales and tourney data is skewed towards meq can be easily attributed to codex releases.

Space Marines (MEQ)
IG (non-MEQ)
Space wolves (MEQ)
Tyranids (non-MEQ)
Blood Angels (MEQ)
Deamonhunters / Witchhunters (MEQ)

Then the rumors are after that is Necrons another MEQ army...

Yep.
And of all these MEQs SM sell the most last time I asked which was before christmas I admit.
Thus your point being?

8 MEQ (including SM flavors) This will soon be 7 as they are combining WH and DH.
7 Non-MEQ

Moot point since the amount of users in each army are skewed towards SM.
Thus the 8 vs 7 are no true as all variables (armies) have different values.

I just think its hilarious to find someone believing DE are overpowered.

If you beat someone bad enough with any list they always end up screaming foul. You should know that by now.

Clthomps wrote:If you beat someone bad enough with any list they always end up screaming foul. You should know that by now.

Freakin' Necrons are OP too. Nerf them!!!

Clthomps wrote:If you beat someone bad enough with any list they always end up screaming foul. You should know that by now.

QFT.

Hell, I had a mech IG player be upset about my Tau army.

My Tau army.

I just think its hilarious to find someone believing DE are overpowered.

Nah, its pretty hilarious trying to discredit the other guy to make his opinions seem biased.
Please dont do that again, I took offense from it and thus my rather harsh reply...of which I apologize since it was probably a ta to harsh.

Pyriel- wrote:

I just think its hilarious to find someone believing DE are overpowered.

Nah, its pretty hilarious trying to discredit the other guy to make his opinions seem biased.
Please dont do that again, I took offense from it and thus my rather harsh reply...of which I apologize since it was probably a ta to harsh.

Are you still here griping?

I'm just sitting on the sidelines having a laugh along with everyone else at an absurd idea. Don't feel like I am trying to single you out or anything; you came here, to my thread. You're welcome to not post here. But if you post an absurd idea, expect people to laugh at it, which they are.