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Well the main question is are you using a monstrous base or a calvery base? cause canis is on a monstrous but the units are calvary so there base is one or the other.

With a Suit on its face? No base. That being said, I only ever use them in casual games against friends or myself, so I just measure the distance to the model itself (Give or take about an inch or so, which would be present had there been a base there).

WYSIWYG can be taken too far.

The original idea of WYSIWYG was partly aesthetic -- to ensure that figures looked like the troop types they represented. For example, Roman Legionaries should look like Legionaries, not like Auxiliaries or Athenian Peltasts.

No-one insisted that Roman Legionary figures should all be armed with a pilum because all Roman Legionaries were armed with a pilum. This allows flexibility in representation so you can have figures mixed in carrying only their swords.

I don't like WYSIWYG,and I am lucky for me, the players I played with, let it go. They like to have their models WYSIWYG, but didn't hold me or others to it.

For me, I am not buying a bunch of genestealer boxes just to get the tentical heads to make a brood of 20 or so ymgarl stealers. You only get 4 to a box, so no, I am not doing it. I have 20 'stealers, but only 8 or so heads, no thank you for WYSIWYG. I am not a cheater, I don't lie, so I don't see what the big deal about being honest with your opponent is.

But from what I read on the forums, people do lie and cheat. Man they are pathetic. You have to lie and cheat to win at a toy soldier game? Just shamefull, and pretty pathetic.

Davor wrote:But from what I read on the forums, people do lie and cheat. Man they are pathetic. You have to lie and cheat to win at a toy soldier game? Just shamefull, and pretty pathetic.

Ya I've played a guy how had to cheat in so many ways to win..... me and my friends don't play with him anymore.

Davor wrote:For me, I am not buying a bunch of genestealer boxes just to get the tentical heads to make a brood of 20 or so ymgarl stealers. You only get 4 to a box, so no, I am not doing it. I have 20 'stealers, but only 8 or so heads, no thank you for WYSIWYG. I am not a cheater, I don't lie, so I don't see what the big deal about being honest with your opponent is.

So you don't lie, but you don't see any reason not to?

Also, I'd just like to point out that your example is somewhat of a trivial example. You can't really mix Ymgarls with regular Stealers, so the only real distinction to be made is at the beginning of the game, when you say "Oh, these are Ymgarl genestealers, not regulars." The main issue is when people run marine armies and the like, then put guns on models that are entirely different from what the list uses. I believe one of the examples was a plasma gun being used to indicate a meltagun. The tournaments at my FLGS would either not allow the model, or have the player use a more appropriate one (Borrow someone else's that is holding a proper weapon).

Head choices don't make a lick of difference unless you're a real WYSIWYG Nazi - and especially not when you can't combine regular 'stealers and Ymgarl ones in the first place.

Well since lists are suppose to be open for all to see, when you place your units down, or when putting them in reserve, what is so bad saying to your opponent, these are ymgarl 'stealers and not regular 'stealers.

When I play friendlies I mostly go WYSIWYG, but if I want to try something new out that I havnt bought yet I don´t. My friends do the same, but in tournaments I think it should be WYSIWYG because you would like to see what your oponent brings to the table and he will have the same chance to see what you bring to the table. Then you have the apocalypsegames, lots of points on the table, and it takes verry long time to play. You can´t keep all different units and their special weapons in the head all the time and it would be verry frustrating to loose a battle, that you´ve invested several hours in, because you or your opponent didn´t remember what was special with a certain unit. So, WYSIWYG is most wanted in apocalypsgames.

@Davor: It's nice not needing to constantly check the opponent's list to know which units are which, and what models have which capabilities.

Davor wrote:Well since lists are suppose to be open for all to see, when you place your units down, or when putting them in reserve, what is so bad saying to your opponent, these are ymgarl 'stealers and not regular 'stealers.

Read my above post again. Genestealers (Ymgarl vs. regular) are a very aesthetic change, and there's really very little confusion whether it's a Ymgarl squad or not. When you run Space Wolves it becomes very important to instantly see what model has what - it's possible to have four different weapons in a single Troops slot, plus the MOTW and Standard bearer, meaning six models that have something special in each Troops slot of 10 marine. When it comes to wound allocation, it's very helpful to your opponent if they can tell which models have which equipment with a single glance, rather than needing to constantly check your list.

Locclo wrote:Also, I'd just like to point out that your example is somewhat of a trivial example. You can't really mix Ymgarls with regular Stealers, so the only real distinction to be made is at the beginning of the game, when you say "Oh, these are Ymgarl genestealers, not regulars." The main issue is when people run marine armies and the like, then put guns on models that are entirely different from what the list uses. I believe one of the examples was a plasma gun being used to indicate a meltagun. The tournaments at my FLGS would either not allow the model, or have the player use a more appropriate one (Borrow someone else's that is holding a proper weapon).

Head choices don't make a lick of difference unless you're a real WYSIWYG Nazi - and especially not when you can't combine regular 'stealers and Ymgarl ones in the first place.

Ah, but that's the issue, you see. It isn't WYSIWYG or not, it's what level of WYSIWYG you accept. The most common point of distinction is for special weapons troops to carry what they say they carry, but there's countless other points as well.

If you're okay with that flamer being a meltagun is it alright if that other flamer is a plasma gun? If so, what about those scouts being assault marines?

If you require that special weapons are what the model carries, does every troop in a unit have to have the right mutation? Does every ork boy need to have stikk bomb?


There's no single line with WYSIWYG. It's up to the players, the gaming club and the tournament to build a standard that everyone (well, as many people as possible) can live with.

sebster wrote:
If you're okay with that flamer being a meltagun is it alright if that other flamer is a plasma gun?

No

sebster wrote:If so, what about those scouts being assault marines?

NO!

sebster wrote:If you require that special weapons are what the model carries, does every troop in a unit have to have the right mutation? Does every ork boy need to have stikk bomb?

Mine do, it's not difficult.

sebster wrote:There's no single line with WYSIWYG. It's up to the players, the gaming club and the tournament to build a standard that everyone (well, as many people as possible) can live with.

The only standard that I find acceptable is that all non-compulsory equipment is modelled.

And all models are modelled with their correct models.

I don't mind non-standard models as long as they look the part. (e.g. using a bunch of normal boys with rokkits as tankbutas - they couldn't be anything else) Using models that are clearly something else is a no-no. (e.g. tacticals as assault marines, etc)

Well tankbusters are essentially boys with rokkits.

Scott-S6 wrote:The only standard that I find acceptable is that all non-compulsory equipment is modelled.

That's cool, but the point is that that is your standard isn't everyone's standard. I take stikkbombs rarely, and have no interest in modelling and painting a whole other set of orks for the odd time I take stikkbombs. It isn't hard for my opponent if I tell him 'all my boyz have stikkbombs even though they're not on the model'. Most everyone is cool with that, if it was a problem I'd try to come to an agreement.

The point is to avoid 'this is how WYSIWYG must be' and instead say 'this is how I like WYSIWYG'.

sebster wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:The only standard that I find acceptable is that all non-compulsory equipment is modelled.

The point is to avoid 'this is how WYSIWYG must be' and instead say 'this is how I like WYSIWYG'.

Which is exactly what I did.

Just so every one knows, I've been tearing off the arms of my guys and fitting them with the proper stuff..... and working on trying to make meltas and flamers.

Depends on what it is and the context.

For friendly games Im completely cool with it and do it all the time, just let me opponent know what is what and vice versa. I also try to make subbing stuff in consistent. Right now my tyranids have the forge world terminator commander as a tyranid prime. 6 hammer terminators as hive guard, and 3 shooty terminators as zoanthropes. I also use a carnifex and a war walker as tervigons, and eldar guardians as extra gaunts if I need them. Its not really confusing. It only becomes a problem if the same models represent different things. IE these 3 hammer terminators are zoanthropes, but these 6 are hive guard.

Or, for very few dollars:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1400031


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1400024


If you think you're going to spend any significant effort, just buy them...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Or, for very few dollars:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1400031


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1400024


If you think you're going to spend any significant effort, just buy them...

That would be good, but i dont have money.... due to this hobby. So I can't afford it with shipping, and my local comic shop can't get them cause the GW policy of being annoying.... so won't give it to them.

Just a thought, how much is shipping that you can't afford to buy a 7 dollar kit of meltas? Especially since everything in the hobby is already 5 times more expensive than the base cost of that.

Personally, the only problem I have with those is that I love converting and kitbashing. It's much more preferable to me to have a hodgepodge of things that resemble melta guns (And be able to say that I made them) than have official meltas. To me, the best part of the hobby is the modeling and conversion.

AKGator wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you think you're going to spend any significant effort, just buy them...

That would be good, but i dont have money.... due to this hobby.

Then defer buying a box set or split shipping in a group order?

I proxy to hell and back because I refuse to drop any money beyond what I did for my CSM from 2nd edition years ago. I don't play in Tournaments though and don't take 40k seriously as a game or ruleset. No point automatically playing into the GW mentality of "Just buy more" even though it's so prevalent in most circles.

AKGator wrote:I know that when building them it says what each troop can have, aswell as in the codex but only owning ten termies and being able to have one of 7 different CCW and 7 different guns each makes it a little hard to build them that way. Well you probably see what I;m saying by now. Should WYSIWYG be a rule that keeps players from taking part in tournaments or limiting what they can do?

I like WYSIWYG in general, and am OK with bending it with some proxying as long as the bending is clear. The big thing for me is to be clear and *consistent* and you should have few issues. All the flamers are really meltaguns? Consistent and fine. This flamer is a meltagun, that one is a flamer, and the other one is a powerfist? Inconsistent and confusing. The TH/SS termies are really regular termies and the lightning claw one has an assault cannon and the TH/SS without a helmet is the Sgt? OK. Those assault termies are regular termies but those other assault termies are assault termies? Inconsistent and confusing.

Being consistent with your proxying is the cheapest and easiest way. How tournaments and events would look upon proxying varies from event to event / organizer to organizer.

Other ways:

*Magnetize / model to allow for swaps. Things like Dread arms are easy to just put in place without gluing. Don't glue down those Razorback weapons to allow for swaps or to allow for it to be an instant Rhino (or with addition of a possibly scratch built missile system, a Whirlwind). Magnetic backpacks on things like vanguard vets to allow for jump packs and regular packs to be switched out, etc.

*Make a few extra guys. When you're mainly looking at swapping special weapons, modeling up a few extra flamer/melta/plasma guys for the army as a whole can make swapping in easier.

*Make your specials/heavies non-standard. If you give all your specialists custom "zap blasters" or whatnot you can call them whatever you want (just be consistent).

My other general thoughts on WYSIWYG vs. counts as vs. proxies: http://sonsoftaurus.blogspot.com/2009/10/wysiwyg-vs-counts-as-vs-proxies.html

Locclo wrote:Just a thought, how much is shipping that you can't afford to buy a 7 dollar kit of meltas? Especially since everything in the hobby is already 5 times more expensive than the base cost of that.

Well I'm in Alaska so any and all shipping is horrible, but my local comic shop knows about this and helps us out by making every thing thats from GW 20% off its origanal price (ie. termis $50 are now $40) they have something worked out with GW and its awesome. Only thing with that is GW won't give them that much of things, like I can not get Wolf Guard Terminator Box here I HAVE to order it if i want it and pay full price plus shipping.