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I haven't been playing for even a year yet but I have played well over 70 to 100 games and am doing very good against the people in my dorm who have all been playing much longer. I was hoping to try out a tournament sometime because I want to try my skills out against other but I can't because I didnt build my army as WYSIWYG I just find that too limiting with how many choices I have for each unit. With all of my friends none of us do that mainly because we all like to try new things all the time (me more then most) and i just know that there is no way i could ever own an army that would be all WYSIWYG. I know that when building them it says what each troop can have, aswell as in the codex but only owning ten termies and being able to have one of 7 different CCW and 7 different guns each makes it a little hard to build them that way. Well you probably see what I;m saying by now. Should WYSIWYG be a rule that keeps players from taking part in tournaments or limiting what they can do?

Yes. Nothing is worse than getting confused about whats what, and it's unfair to your opponent too, whom would be asking everytime he fires what a unit is/isn't. Not only that, but some players, maybe not you, but some, will say it's one thing when it's actually another, in order to increase chances of winning by throwing their opponent off.

Ah, All the players I've played with have all been friends and honest. (minus one but he has to bring a army list to every game now to keep him from doing that) So I may be a little naive since I haven't been to a tournament where the player likes to bend rules and try to slide stuff like that by.

Not every tournament is strict WYISWYG, so if you wanted to play I'd recommend contacting the organisers for their policy. Tournaments I've been around have policies on WYSIWYG ranging from loose (as long as variations are consistant and you tell your opponent it's cool) to reasonably strict (a special weapon guy needs to be carrying the gun the model is carrying... but stopping short of requiring grenades and the like to be modelled).

The occasional weapon switch doesn't bother me in friendly games, and i can't really say too much, as my Noise Champion w/ doom siren carries an electric guitar. He's usually permitted owing to his sheer awesomeness though

haha ya all my guys are built great but aren't built right. Some of the first grey hunters i built (when I first starting the awesome game) have stormbolters cause i needed a gun for there left arm and I didin't know who was who. I guess if i had too I could just make them Wolf guard and I'd be fine.

When I run tournaments, I make the players be consistent. If you want LCs to the TH/SS, then all LC's will be TH/SS. That why when you start the game you can say all X equals Y.

It's not about limiting creativity, it about creating a fair and even playing field for people that alot of times have never meet and are about to play 3 games in one day.

In a friendly game, do whatever you want (or your opponent will tolerate). In a tournament or with strangers, WYSIWYG all the way.

CatPeeler wrote:In a friendly game, do whatever you want (or your opponent will tolerate). In a tournament or with strangers, WYSIWYG all the way.

Sure, but WYSIWYG isn't just yay or nay. Do you require every model in a unit to be modelled with grenades? What about auspex? Are all the orks with two handed weapons deemed to have big choppas?

I can understand not wanting to confuse your opponent, especially complete strangers at a tournament or something. I've only played with friends who are cool with whatever, especially since I'm kinda new. But I still think its GW trying to force you to buy more models. I put the power fist on my first aspiring champion, just because it was cooler, but no, gotta go buy the kit again if you want a power weapon today. I know you can magnetize stuff, but GW not selling magnets kinda proves my point

leoaeris6789 wrote:I can understand not wanting to confuse your opponent, especially complete strangers at a tournament or something. I've only played with friends who are cool with whatever, especially since I'm kinda new. But I still think its GW trying to force you to buy more models. I put the power fist on my first aspiring champion, just because it was cooler, but no, gotta go buy the kit again if you want a power weapon today. I know you can magnetize stuff, but GW not selling magnets kinda proves my point

what, games workshop actually selling something that would make you spend less on the shiny ultrasmurfs and their kin? that'd be the day.
but yeah, agreeing with leoaeris here, magnetising is a fantastically easy (and not that costly) way of evading WYSIWYG.

that been said though, i played my first tournament today (School/college league; warhammer world nottingham regional) and they were reasonably lax on WYSIWYG. i suppose in more serious tournaments, and non-GW ones especially, it's more heavily enforced?

I am going to look into magnetizing them cause I was thinking for little guys that small it would be alot more work then its worth. But i think the rule kinda goes with the sportsmanship score thing, to try to force people to be honest cause no one trusts each other..... which you probably shouldn't for the most part sadly.

Ashtaroth wrote:what, games workshop actually selling something that would make you spend less on the shiny ultrasmurfs and their kin? that'd be the day.

No, it'd just lead to people complaining about GW enforcing WYSIWYG in order to sell overpriced magnets. And you know that if GW did sell magnets they wouldn't be price competitive anyway, so I don't think the complaint is justified.

that been said though, i played my first tournament today (School/college league; warhammer world nottingham regional) and they were reasonably lax on WYSIWYG. i suppose in more serious tournaments, and non-GW ones especially, it's more heavily enforced?

It just depends on the opinion of the guy on the rules committee who cares most about the issue. If that guy is passionate about WYSIWYG then it'll be a strict WYSIWGY tournament.

sebster wrote:Sure, but WYSIWYG isn't just yay or nay. Do you require every model in a unit to be modelled with grenades? What about auspex? Are all the orks with two handed weapons deemed to have big choppas?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not necessary to model all the default equipment (i.e., grenades, bolt pistols on tac marines, etc), as there typically isn't a way for the model to *not* have them. Special weapons, however, need to be WYSIWYG. If I'm moving one of my tanks, and the only enemy unit nearby is a tactical squad with a flamer, heavy bolter, and power weapon, the LAST thing I want to hear on my opponent's turn is, "Oh, that flamer is actually a melta, the heavy bolter is actually a multimelta, and the sergeant has a powerfist. Oh, that Pedro model is actually Vulkan." Even if you explain everything at the beginning of the game, your opponent may not remember that the plasma guns are meltaguns after two hours and several turns of play. As point levels go up, it's an even bigger deal. In 10+ years of tournament play, I can't recall a single tournament that *didn't* require WYSIWYG.

Again, in a casual game it's not all that big a deal, but in a tournament it's another animal entirely.

hey a good solution to your problem although would make it a lot more complicated, Magnetize your models. You basically get small magnets and add them to the arms or weapons of your models then you can freely switch between different options.

I play Tau and my only non WYSIWYG is my battle suit weapons. But because they all have missiles / plamsa & Multi-Trackers no one seems to care.

WYSIWYG is important for tourneys/competitive games, no doubt, particularly for special/heavy weapons that sometimes have a mysterious way of floating around or being "remembered" at the opportune moment. I agree that basic, default equipment can be taken for granted, even altered for the sake of modeling (i.e., your slugga boyz are modeled with two sluggas or two choppas, it can be assumed they have both since you can't have one without the other, and so on), but anything optional needs to be shown, PERIOD. In a casual game, I'm fine with proxies if it's explained beforehand AND if we agree that if someone "forgets" what's what that'll we'll dice off for it.

In a tourney, I'd expect (and prefer) that it be strict WYSIWYG for options/upgrades because I'll be damned if I'm going to be keeping track of your army for you. If you don't show it on the model, you don't use it. If it's on the model, you should have to pay for it or not use it.

Skarboy wrote:If it's on the model, you should have to pay for it or not use it.

Not use the model altogether, or just what ever piece of equipment is on the model itself would not be 'counted as existing for purposes of the game'?

AKGator wrote: Should WYSIWYG be a rule that keeps players from taking part in tournaments or limiting what they can do?

Absolutely, it should.

Back in the day, you'd face all kinds of random stuff with no idea what was what.

WYSIWYG was a godsend, because you could know clearly what was across the table from you, and which model was which.

Today, I'd expect to see "correct" weapons on the "correct" basic model, with some obvious way to distinguish Characters from basic squaddies.

Kinda off topic but I play Tau & built my army years ago & used what I thought looked cool. I lost a lot of parts but always run all my suits (beside commander) missile / plasma / multi tracker & the leader has a drone controller.
They may have different weapons modeled (I think I had put fusion / flamer on them because I was young & dumb) but I always distinguish the squad leader with a yellow helmet would anyone have a particular problem with this?

Also my Shas'El was purchased before the new model & as such doesn't have a cyclic Ion blaster so I use a burst cannon to represent it (none of my other suits use the burst cannon). Any Issue with that either?

In tournaments I always provided a list & no one complained as I clearly marked team leaders & my Shas'El is a brighter color than the rest, just want to know if people just didn't mention anything but thought it.

edit: spacing

CatPeeler wrote:

sebster wrote:Sure, but WYSIWYG isn't just yay or nay. Do you require every model in a unit to be modelled with grenades? What about auspex? Are all the orks with two handed weapons deemed to have big choppas?

As far as I'm concerned, it's not necessary to model all the default equipment (i.e., grenades, bolt pistols on tac marines, etc), as there typically isn't a way for the model to *not* have them. Special weapons, however, need to be WYSIWYG. If I'm moving one of my tanks, and the only enemy unit nearby is a tactical squad with a flamer, heavy bolter, and power weapon, the LAST thing I want to hear on my opponent's turn is, "Oh, that flamer is actually a melta, the heavy bolter is actually a multimelta, and the sergeant has a powerfist. Oh, that Pedro model is actually Vulkan." Even if you explain everything at the beginning of the game, your opponent may not remember that the plasma guns are meltaguns after two hours and several turns of play. As point levels go up, it's an even bigger deal. In 10+ years of tournament play, I can't recall a single tournament that *didn't* require WYSIWYG.

Again, in a casual game it's not all that big a deal, but in a tournament it's another animal entirely.

This.

And honestly, even in a casual game I prefer to be WYSIWYG and fully painted. If I’m just testing something out prior to building & painting it, I’ll be sure to be as clear as possible about it and making sure my opponent is aware. But for a random pickup game I‘d much rather be exactly WYSIWYG. It’s much nicer for my opponent to not have any question.

AKGator wrote:But i think the rule kinda goes with the sportsmanship score thing, to try to force people to be honest cause no one trusts each other..... which you probably shouldn't for the most part sadly.

It’s NOT about no one trusting each other. It’s courtesy. I consider the onus to be on me to make sure I don’t give my opponent any reason to be suspicious of me. Just like when you play poker with friends, you still cut the deck after shuffling. Not because you mistrust your friends; just because that’s standard practice, and helps keep there from being any question.

AKGator wrote:I am going to look into magnetizing them cause I was thinking for little guys that small it would be alot more work then its worth.

It’s easier than you think. Get those tiny little rare earth magnets & you’ll be surprised how easy it is. And it’s really cool being able to easily swap the arms. Be careful about keeping your polarities consistent, though! It sucks to have one of the options repulsing from the joint because you accidentally flipped the magnet before gluing it onto your combi-melta arm!

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Skarboy wrote:If it's on the model, you should have to pay for it or not use it.

Not use the model altogether, or just what ever piece of equipment is on the model itself would not be 'counted as existing for purposes of the game'?

Preferably not even the model, for reasons explained in other posts. It's too easy to forget which is which and special weapons/upgrades are often the whole threat of the entire unit and really, individual models or bits so that you can have the right stuff is a small fraction of your army cost, so just do it. If you're the mix 'n' match type, then either magnetize or buy a couple extra special weapon models. No big deal.

Again, in a friendly game, I'd be forgiving, especially with a friend, but even there, if the guy had a laundry list of "this red bolt pistol is a plasma, this guy doesn't actually have a powerfist, and this guy with no arm has a multimelta, etc." started going down, I'd probably not want to play the game. Doesn't make the guy a bad person or anything, but it's not considerate to your opponent to be so unready to play, and opens the door to some types to be tempted into cheating.

I'm not one to do things the GW way, but I think WYSIWYG is the cats pajamas! Even when I use non-GW models or pieces, I try to make it as obvious as possible what the armnaments are.

I adhere to the same exceptions as most folks....
-secondary default weapons need not be shown.
-As long as it is clearly stated to your opponent. grenades need not be represented. Alternatively, if represented, need not be taken.
-Certain optional equipment can be disregarded if it's announced before hand.
...and in a friendly game, I'm not going to turn down an opponent if he isn't strictly WYSIWYG, but I'd really like to be able to look at my army (and my opponents) and know whats out there.

One thing that makes this easy for me is that I'm not a very competative player, so having units with fairly fixed options doesn't bother me. Also, I've no problems with doing a bit of converting, or re-converting of a model to change it's equipment.

In answer to the OP, the answer for a Tournament is to work up a good "all comers" list with the units you have, and them modify them to be armed them accordingly. Obvously your friends don't require WYSIWYG, so you can practice with various options to find the combination you like, and then after the Tourney they're again free to play your units with whatever weapons you want.

Well fellow alaskan, I believe that WYSIWYG is a great way to keep things easily recognizable, and the only way to do tournaments, but casual play is something quite different. For the purposes of your question, however, I think tournaments are perfectly ok having limits on WYSIWYG. Yes, it limits the kind of people that can play there, but I believe firmly in soft scores (such as having your whole army painted) and WYSIWYG kinda falls into that. It just shows the amount of dedication you have to that army, and helps you be a more well-rounded hobbyist instead of a powergamer. If there was no WYSIWYG, what's to stop a person from throwing down a unit of tactical marines and claim that they actually have jump packs and are assault marines? That's obviously a bit extreme but you see where I'm going with it.

Some of the minor options and wargear, like meltabombs, generally are not nearly as restricted. but yes, I would like to see the marine with the meltagun actually have something resembling a meltagun, so I know which one it is. It keeps it simple, which is essential in a tournament setting. It is too easy to forget which one is which.

Well I try my best now to do WYSIWYG but like with my SW troops box it doesnt come with flamers or meltaguns, so I have been using the plasma gun and just saying that is the guy with the special weapon. And with painting with college taking up most my time i can ususally only get in about one game a week if im lucky, let alone paint it all. I thnk the fact that I've spent well over 1500 dollars shows my dedication on its own. I still try to paint them if I have free time but I don't have enough time to commit to painting that many things. I would love to though

AKGator wrote:Well I try my best now to do WYSIWYG but like with my SW troops box it doesnt come with flamers or meltaguns,

I believe GW sells a bitz pack of Meltaguns at a *very* reasonable price. Buy them!

AKGator wrote:Well I try my best now to do WYSIWYG but like with my SW troops box it doesnt come with flamers or meltaguns

Kit-bashing is the way to go. I have six Grey Hunters with Meltaguns, and all of them are toting something that at least resembles a Meltagun. One is using an actual meltagun which I got off a Tactical Marine box, one is using a Combi-melta from the Space Marine Commander box, one's using a Flamer with the little tube thing from the Missile Launcher glued on and some bits clipped off, another is using a trimmed Multi-Melta from the Devastator box, and two are using converted Tau Flamers with a tube glued on from the Space Wolf kit.

I hate that the kit doesn't come with any meltaguns (Despite having all the parts to make any one of three different units...) but I really think that the modeling aspect is the best part of the hobby, and a sign of a truly dedicated player is one who has a bunch of really cool and creative conversions/kit-bashes. While I'm willing to use counts-as in rare cases (Especially when I try to test a list using TWC, for which there is no model other than Canis Wolfborn) I much prefer a model whose weaponry has been converted from something else.

As for the OP, I just want to throw out that I think of WYSIWYG as a way to avoid confusion among everyone involved - including yourself, at times. It's much safer to just model what you're using, and magnetize what you're not (But may use in the future). Magnets are pretty cheap to buy on the internet, and they make army customization much, much easier.

On the TWC thing what have you been using for a proxie? I have been using a bike squad but I'm not sure if they should be on a monsteruos like Canis?

Magnets are your friend. Magnetizing models to change out wargear....tasty.

AKGator wrote:On the TWC thing what have you been using for a proxie? I have been using a bike squad but I'm not sure if they should be on a monsteruos like Canis?

Just a Tau Crisis suit on its face. I don't actually have any bikes to use (Since Space Wolf ones kinda suck) so I've just been using my seven Crisis Suits. I'm still looking for a decent model to use for them - heard the D&D minis could be used as a pretty good wolf.