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They are the masters of teleportation technology

General_Chaos wrote:

NaZ wrote:It is interesting that this point has not been made here:

the deffrolla does not say when you SUCCESSFULLY tank shock (or ram) a unit.

it says when you tank shock (or ram) a unit.

if a skimmer dodges the ram, that just means neither vehicle is subject to damage under the ram rules.

where does it say anywhere that a skimmer dodge negates the effects of any wargear being carried by the offending vehicle??

I'd love some clarification on this one, but it seems very straightforward from that angle.

NaZ

wow ok so I would declare to tank shock someone 48" away and damn I failed but you still take 1d6 hits... ork technology rocks...

Yes, that would work, were it that you declare tank shocks vs specific units.

You don't, you tank shock x" in y Direction. If you come into contact with an enemy, only THEN are they tank shocked.

Lets start with RAW...
Deff rolla's rules:
'Any any shock made by a battle wagon with a deff rolla causes D6 str 10 hits on the victim..' (C:Ork, p.55)

tank shock -> ram special rules:

"Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armour facing where other vehicle has been impacted, the strength as calculated by the following:..." (BGB, p.69)

Skimmer rules for dodging rams:
"3+ the skimmer avoids the tank, neither vehicle suffers any damage" (BGB, p.71)

Interpretation for me:
Deff rolla replaces the number of hits and the calculation function within the ram special rules
but the ram can be avoided outright as the skimmer by rolling 3+ on 1d6,
this which means the ram has not been made but rather the vehicle has moved the distance to be stopped in front of the vehicle,
the skimmer is therefore no longer the victim of the ram, because the ram has been avoided, therefore no hits are incurred.

Reasoning:
The rolla modifies the normal ram for a battle wagon would be 1 hit at str 5 + speed (distance moved / 3, rounding down), at best you can get 1 str 9 hit, with the deff rolla, regardless of the speed you have traveled you will always hit d6 at str 10 if the ram/tank shock occurs.
The skimmer can always avoid the hit.
The RAW states its an automatic hit EXCEPT when the skimmer has dodged the ram.

Fluff:
The skimmer can move far faster than the tank that is attempting to hit it, the crew are likely to be trained to react to faster conditions and are more alert. It is likely to see the tank coming, or in the case of Orks, hear it, and react quicker than a regular tank, this is it could move up, sideways or do a loop the loop (skimmers dont just hover millimetres above the ground, it could be meters)

Also if a skimmer passes it's save to Ramming, then the ramming vehicle stops at the edge of the vehicle looking mildly confused. And move no further, this would mean that the Deff Rolla wouldn't make contact with the opposing vehicle.

Oshova

Oshova wrote:Also if a skimmer passes it's save to Ramming, then the ramming vehicle stops at the edge of the vehicle looking mildly confused. And move no further, this would mean that the Deff Rolla wouldn't make contact with the opposing vehicle.

Oshova

That's not actually true since the skimmers special dodging rule cannot be used unless the BW/Deff Rolla comes in contact with it.

The Ramming tank is moved into contact with the skimmer as normal... but if the skimmer passes the dodge roll, it 'avoids' the enemy tank. So while physically the two made contact, so far as the rules are concerned after the fact, no contact occurred, because the skimmer moved out of the way. The contact is merely the trigger for the ensuing sequence.

Even so, the player doesn't move the skimmer on a successful dodge, and the ork player doesn't move the BW back. So as far as the positions on the table are concerned they are still in contact. Am I mistaken?

Surely they would end up 1" away from each other, so as not to conflict with that rule. Being more than 1" away from any enemy model at the end of your movement phase, unless you have successfully rammed.

Oshova

Oshova wrote: Being more than 1" away from any enemy model at the end of your movement phase, unless you have successfully rammed.

Sorry, but there is no such rule.

You're not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model, unless another rule specifically allows it. There is no rule preventing you from being within 1" of an enemy model.

So taking the Ram action allows the enemy tank to break the 1" rule for movement. If the skimmer dodges, both tanks remain where they are, but no Ram has occurred. Nothing says that either vehicle has to be moved... they simply remain where they are until one or the other moves away.

At the point when the enemy tank was moving, it was following a rule that allowed it to break the 1" rule. After the tank has finished its movement, the 1" rule no longer applies, as it only applies to movement, not final placement.

it remains in base to base...
Ramming places the vehicle in base to base contact.

Tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal. On a roll of 3+, however, nothing further happens.

It is an explicit exception to the can not move within 1" rule.

Note:

If you declare a tank shock, you can not ram. But if you ram you can tank shock intermediate units.

Rules for tank shock state if it moves within 1" of an enemy vehicle, or contact with friendly units, it stops immediately.

So a tank shock can not lead to a ram.

I think some of the posters here have to step back and look at the ridiculousness of what they are posting.

1) GW brought Ramming and Tank shock together to be one rule in order to sell their new Deffrolla upgrade sprue. The complications are that it was never supposed to work this way, but Orks are a bad codex and players felt they had to cheat. You no longer have to declare what kind of rolling tank attack you are using - you just move it the direction you want and then see the results of every contact along the way.

2) The whole point of a 'dodge' is that you avoided contact with something meant to hurt you. This is not a 3+ power armour save we are talking about here. No ram occured, so no damage occurs. What is it dodging if the spiky steamroller hits it and guaranteed kills it? Furthermore, contact does not activate the deffrolla, or no one would ever dream of ramming a battlewagon.

Fearspect wrote:I think some of the posters here have to step back and look at the ridiculousness of what they are posting.

1) GW brought Ramming and Tank shock together to be one rule in order to sell their new Deffrolla upgrade sprue. The complications are that it was never supposed to work this way, but Orks are a bad codex and players felt they had to cheat. You no longer have to declare what kind of rolling tank attack you are using - you just move it the direction you want and then see the results of every contact along the way.

2) The whole point of a 'dodge' is that you avoided contact with something meant to hurt you. This is not a 3+ power armour save we are talking about here. No ram occured, so no damage occurs. What is it dodging if the spiky steamroller hits it and guaranteed kills it? Furthermore, contact does not activate the deffrolla, or no one would ever dream of ramming a battlewagon.

1) Umm you still need to declare a ram as opposed to tankshock or you stop before contact with vehicle (Page 68 right hand column paragraph two). So yes feel free to let people make this mistake then punish them for it.


2) Damn right what part of dodge and 'neither vehilce suffers any damage' is so hard to understand?

1) Pardon?
2) You seem to be right. (See you are right for all visible values of right. (Denyability for the win))

What about the whole psychic ork thing that if they believe it works it does, isn't that how the red paint job works?

orkcommander wrote:What about the whole psychic ork thing that if they believe it works it does, isn't that how the red paint job works?

That's how everything Ork works, and that's why the Blood Angels were able to kick so much ork ass on Armegeddon.

Seriphis wrote:If you declare a tank shock, you can not ram. But if you ram you can tank shock intermediate units.

Rules for tank shock state if it moves within 1" of an enemy vehicle, or contact with friendly units, it stops immediately.

So a tank shock can not lead to a ram.

Unfortunately this is only true for all armies other than Orks, thanks to the wording on the last item in the Ork FAQ stating that a ram is just a type of tank shock.

I see the point, hopefully the next faq or update from here will have a ruling on this.

I stand by my logic, but see where you are coming from too.

I'm not aware of any other wargear that affects a unit upon tank shock/ram. can anyone site examples?

Fearspect wrote:

Seriphis wrote:If you declare a tank shock, you can not ram. But if you ram you can tank shock intermediate units.

Rules for tank shock state if it moves within 1" of an enemy vehicle, or contact with friendly units, it stops immediately.

So a tank shock can not lead to a ram.

Unfortunately this is only true for all armies other than Orks, thanks to the wording on the last item in the Ork FAQ stating that a ram is just a type of tank shock.

Yes that's right Ram is just a type of tank shock - But your wrong, it must be declared, a tankshock (Rectangle) doesn't magically turn into a ram (square) when convient, it must be a ram (Square) from... Square One~! Ta-daaah!!!

Fearspect wrote:Unfortunately this is only true for all armies other than Orks, thanks to the wording on the last item in the Ork FAQ stating that a ram is just a type of tank shock.

That doesn't just apply to Orks... it's also what it says in the Ram rules in the rulebook.

That doesn't change the fact that it has slightly different rules.

Good to know, I thought it changed things for them. I'll remember to call people on it at 'Ard Boyz.

Fearspect wrote:
1) GW brought Ramming and Tank shock together to be one rule in order to sell their new Deffrolla upgrade sprue. The complications are that it was never supposed to work this way, but Orks are a bad codex and players felt they had to cheat. You no longer have to declare what kind of rolling tank attack you are using - you just move it the direction you want and then see the results of every contact along the way.

This is getting ridiculous. Absolutely zonkered ridiculous. At least half of the world of 40k players were clearly able to read the rules, where it has always defined ramming as a tank shock. And another portion of the 40k world felt that was too overpowered and whined about it until people like me just stopped playing with Deffrollas to avoid the argument. Score one for the whiners.

And GW is required to actually make a FAQ ruling that says, "Yes...ramming is a kind of tank shock, just like it says on page 68, so the deffrolla works against vehicles, just like it says in the Codex."

And because GW had to clarify that the rule says what it says....its actually GW doing it just to sell a sprue and to make all us ork players stop cheating?

You're neither the voice of GW nor remotely sensible but you are incredibly inflammatory. You'd be well served not to post any more garbage like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:

2) Damn right what part of dodge and 'neither vehilce suffers any damage' is so hard to understand?

What is neither vehicle not suffering damage from? The only damage the skimmer and battlewagon are avoiding is the ramming hit damage. Deffrolla damage is not the ramming hit damage. You can't bubble a skimmer's "no damage protection" beyond the ramming hit.

Gitsnak and I had the same issue since he added 2 on his wagons this weekend. There is no rule clarification so he and I had to make a call... it seems completely bonkers to both of us that a skimmer dodging a tank shock would in any way be damaged by something on a tank it dodged.

No one in this argument has any rules that say clearly the deff rolla damages the tank before the ram damage. That clearly means they either happen at the same time (as Yak pointed out could happen in another thread) or the deff rolla happens after the ram (which makes little sense)

If I avoid a ram, I don't avoid 'wargear', but I do avoid tank shock/ram associated gear in my opinion. Continuing the argument is only causing more inflammatory reactions. If there is no clear ruling (which seems to be indicated by everyone's split interpretation) then why not inject some common sense?

Common sense? Never! =p

But yeah it does make perfect sense that dodging the tank means that you dodge the massive roller on the front lol

Oshova

Because some people want to win with their toy soldiers so badly they don't care about common sense, naturally

ChrisCP wrote:
2) Damn right what part of dodge and 'neither vehilce suffers any damage' is so hard to understand?

Since we are being purposefully obtuse, surely this means neither the skimmer or the battlewagon will ever suffer any damage again! Depending on the skimmer, this might be a very difficult choice to make, though if you had your vehicles loaded with troops, your newly invulnerable tanks would be in good shape to take objectives!

Or, we can recognize that there is a good possibility that the bit in the ramming rules stating that the dodging skimmer and the tank do not take any damage relates to the damage mentioned in the same section, ie. damage from being rammed (AV-10+Speed/3+1 for being a tank etc.) It is entirely possible that the deffrolla still works because it is an additional effect, not the effect of the ram itself. It is just not clear, and thus is open to "common sense", which as DoP has pointed out has little bearing on 40k rules.

But, as has also been pointed out, having the deffrolla trigger simply because the BW "tank shocked," regardless of whether or not the ram was successfully carried out against the skimmer in the path of the ram, opens up some absurdities in the rules that I would rather play without.

Despite the rules for the two mechanics being significantly different, GW has ruled from on-high that one is a subset for the other. That means that we have to play that a negated ram is a negated tank shock as well.

You cannot tankshock/ram further than you move.

You declare you are attempting the tank shock or ram. You pivot and move at full speed in a single direction.
(At this point there is no target)
The tank comes into contact with a unit or vehicle.
(Unit or vehicle that is BtB becomes the target)
DeffRolla triggers because the unit or vehicle has now been targeted.
Skimmer attempts to dodge.
If successful, ram attack does not resolve.

DeffRolla still triggered and would apply the hits.

Here's where I'm not sure on- the dodge says it avoids the damage. I'm not sure if this will include the DeffRolla hits or not.


Otherwise, the DeffRolla does indeed apply the hits. Just no exact word if the hits are discarded by the dodge.

Dashofpepper wrote:

And GW is required to actually make a FAQ ruling that says, "Yes...ramming is a kind of tank shock, just like it says on page 68, so the deffrolla works against vehicles, just like it says in the Codex."

And because GW had to clarify that the rule says what it says....its actually GW doing it just to sell a sprue and to make all us ork players stop cheating?

Actually every rule in every codex is an attempt by GW to sell models. That's what they are in business to do. Why do you think the Blood Angel's codex sounds so OP, so GW can sell more models.
And anyway just in an effort to be on topic, I don't think there is any reason to believe that skimmers can't dodge a deffrolla attack which is caused by ramming/tank shock. Especially since it says "neither vehicle suffers any damage" under "Ramming a Skimmer"

*edited to fix the quote thingy

DeffRolla triggers because the unit or vehicle has now been targeted.
Skimmer attempts to dodge.
If successful, ram attack does not resolve.

DeffRolla still triggered and would apply the hits

Deffrolla applies the hits to the victim of the ram, as there is no victim because the skimmer has avoided it, there are no hits.

Victim implies something has been hit, or otherwise negatively affected, the victim of the ram was the vehicle that got rammed, the intended victim of the ram was the skimmer who dodged it. as the skimmer after passing the dodge roll has had no negative impact on it, then it can hardly be considered a victim.

When I tank shock a unit, the hits are applied. They passed their leadership test and avoided the tank running them over, but they still take the DeffRolla hits.

Why does a skimmer moving out of the way behave differently than infantry moving out of the way?


What happens when I tank shock a unit is separate from the DeffRolla hit resolution. I declare a tank shock, pivot, move, contact enemy unit. Enemy unit becomes the target, DeffRolla activates and applies d6 hits.
Unit takes test;
> if passes they move and may declare DoG. If DoG is declared, DeffRolla applies additional d6 hits. Resolve DoG. Remove DoG model. Resolve DeffRolla hits.
> if failed, resolve tank shock. Resolve DeffRolla hits.

While there is no explicit statement of this procedure, it is implied in the text as it is worded. The Deffrolla and tank shock rules flow in a specific manner and infer a sort of order to steps.


For ramming;
Declare ram, pivot, move. Contact vehicle- vehicle becomes target- DeffRolla activates and applies d6 hits.
Skimmers get dodge;
> if successful; end ram, end movement. Resolve DeffRolla hits.
> if failed; ram hits, applies hit. Resolve ram. Resolve DeffRolla hits. Continue movement. Repeat process for additional contacts.


Think of it like this;
Normal ram against a skimmer - The skimmer is able to barely edge out of the way of the rushing tank- possibly clipping edges.
DeffRolla Ram against skimmer - The skimmer gets tagged by the DeffRolla attachment as it tries to lift above the oncoming tank.



Again, nothing is explicit in the BRB or Codex regarding skimmers, but I still firmly believe that the DeffRolla still applies hits.

My uncertainty is whether the wording of the dodge for skimmers will negate the DeffRolla damage.
The DeffRolla still applies its hits, but whether the skimmer dodging the ram will negate "all" damage or "just the ram" damage is up in the air.

[EDIT:] I must also state that I am looking purely at the game rules, not some inferred "realism" for floating vehicles being rammed.