Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lightning and Jaws x4 is awesome to use in Rhinos =] such a great way of utilising the top hatch =p

Oshova

nosferatu1001 wrote:there's a KFF mek anywhere that *isnt* in a Battlewagon?

Dreadbash/Kanwall lists...

One RP with Jaws can single handedly destroy the fabric of such a list...talk about OP

I play nids... I hate RPs with jaws... Pretty much the bane of my army. Alot of SW players around here. Makes me not even want to play my Nids anymore.

You would think after the experiences with double Fury librarians GW writers would avoid psychic powers of this nature.

Jaws is awesome anti-infantry. Tempest & hurricane do a good job of thinning down skimmers and jump/jet bikes.

But what can you use to counter-point the lack of real anti-tank the RP bring?

Relic_OMO wrote:You would think after the experiences with double Fury librarians GW writers would avoid psychic powers of this nature.

Nooo ..... that was so much fun!

Something to remember about the Jaws of the World Wolf is that everything on the line is affected, so there's opportunities for friendly-fire. Try to get Space Wolves in between the Rune Priest and your monstrous creatures. Alternately, invest heavily in assassin-bugs like Lictors and Pyrovores in Mycetic Spores.

Nurglitch wrote:Something to remember about the Jaws of the World Wolf is that everything on the line is affected, so there's opportunities for friendly-fire. Try to get Space Wolves in between the Rune Priest and your monstrous creatures. Alternately, invest heavily in assassin-bugs like Lictors and Pyrovores in Mycetic Spores.

Or/and winged beasties?

Razerous wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Something to remember about the Jaws of the World Wolf is that everything on the line is affected, so there's opportunities for friendly-fire. Try to get Space Wolves in between the Rune Priest and your monstrous creatures. Alternately, invest heavily in assassin-bugs like Lictors and Pyrovores in Mycetic Spores.

Or/and winged beasties?

Tyranid wings do not help, though things like Gargoyles are Jump infantry.

jmurph wrote:Never seen it played that the RP has to test. That logic would dictate that flamers don't work!

not quite - the rule for flamers is that anything underneath or partially underneath is hit by the flamer template. The model firing the flamer is ADJACENT to the template, not underneath it. as for JotWW, the rule states that TOUCHING the line forces the test, so unless your RP is going to be camping in a rhino all game or taking a Jump Pack, he has to test also each time he takes the test.

jmurph wrote:Never seen it played that the RP has to test. That logic would dictate that flamers don't work!

Jaws is also very useful for getting rid of Plague Marines, one of the more resilient troops in tha game. Ironically, it's also pretty decent at I4 3+ AS removal as a 1/3 chance to kill is like doing an autowound to them. On a T4 model, that's almost as good as 4 S4 or 2 S6+ shots. If you can hit 3+ models, that is the equivalent of 6 S4 hits or 3-4 S6+ hits. It flounders against vehicles, though, and not really worth trying to pop I5+ (unless you can also hit some schlubs). Which is where the Lightning + Beastslayer is fun.

I think Jaws's problem is its ability to outright remove expensive I4 or less Lords/Characters/MCs completely bypassing armor AND invuln AND cover AND number of wounds AND eternal warrior etc, even though it only costs 100 itself and doesn't really compete for any spots since SW players get 4 HQ choices for some reason. Fluff aside, there's literally almost no reason not to take at least one along, because it punishes several common lists that revolve around, say, Tt6 9 wounds not dying easily (carnifexes), low initiative expensive models like Necron Destroyers or Nob Bikers, or a low-initiative independent character not being able to be singled out because he's attached to a squad, like a KFF mek, res orb necron lord, Painboy, IG generals, sanguinary priests, etc.

Although my group house rules that you can Deep Strike, there is somewhat of a precedent for Wings specifically saying that you gain the ability to deep strike, a la CSM.

Why not a deepstrikng MC can really bring the pain?

Ostrakon wrote:
I think Jaws's problem is its ability to outright remove expensive I4 or less Lords/Characters/MCs completely bypassing armor AND invuln AND cover AND number of wounds AND eternal warrior etc, even though it only costs 100 itself and doesn't really compete for any spots since SW players get 4 HQ choices for some reason. Fluff aside, there's literally almost no reason not to take at least one along, because it punishes several common lists that revolve around, say, Tt6 9 wounds not dying easily (carnifexes), low initiative expensive models like Necron Destroyers or Nob Bikers, or a low-initiative independent character not being able to be singled out because he's attached to a squad, like a KFF mek, res orb necron lord, Painboy, IG generals, sanguinary priests, etc.

This is basically the problem. GW mechanics are based around the concept of multiple chances on defence to avoid removal. First a roll to hit, then wound, then save. This is the basic combat mechanic. Many abilities and mechanics bypass one of these defences, whether removing a save, or autowounding, or whatever. Other mechanics add extra layers of defence, such as extra wounds, rerolled saves, and so forth. The system more or less works, until you start introducing things that bypass too much of the concept. This is why Rending in previous editions was so unbalancing - it bypassed too many defences. There was no reason to take much of anything other than Rending if you could get it. JotWW is the same - it bypasses basically every single defence, including the defences of extra wounds or being inside a unit. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

Relic_OMO wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:
I think Jaws's problem is its ability to outright remove expensive I4 or less Lords/Characters/MCs completely bypassing armor AND invuln AND cover AND number of wounds AND eternal warrior etc, even though it only costs 100 itself and doesn't really compete for any spots since SW players get 4 HQ choices for some reason. Fluff aside, there's literally almost no reason not to take at least one along, because it punishes several common lists that revolve around, say, Tt6 9 wounds not dying easily (carnifexes), low initiative expensive models like Necron Destroyers or Nob Bikers, or a low-initiative independent character not being able to be singled out because he's attached to a squad, like a KFF mek, res orb necron lord, Painboy, IG generals, sanguinary priests, etc.

This is basically the problem. GW mechanics are based around the concept of multiple chances on defence to avoid removal. First a roll to hit, then wound, then save. This is the basic combat mechanic. Many abilities and mechanics bypass one of these defences, whether removing a save, or autowounding, or whatever. Other mechanics add extra layers of defence, such as extra wounds, rerolled saves, and so forth. The system more or less works, until you start introducing things that bypass too much of the concept. This is why Rending in previous editions was so unbalancing - it bypassed too many defences. There was no reason to take much of anything other than Rending if you could get it. JotWW is the same - it bypasses basically every single defence, including the defences of extra wounds or being inside a unit. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

Tanks.

Razerous wrote:

Relic_OMO wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:
I think Jaws's problem is its ability to outright remove expensive I4 or less Lords/Characters/MCs completely bypassing armor AND invuln AND cover AND number of wounds AND eternal warrior etc, even though it only costs 100 itself and doesn't really compete for any spots since SW players get 4 HQ choices for some reason. Fluff aside, there's literally almost no reason not to take at least one along, because it punishes several common lists that revolve around, say, Tt6 9 wounds not dying easily (carnifexes), low initiative expensive models like Necron Destroyers or Nob Bikers, or a low-initiative independent character not being able to be singled out because he's attached to a squad, like a KFF mek, res orb necron lord, Painboy, IG generals, sanguinary priests, etc.

This is basically the problem. GW mechanics are based around the concept of multiple chances on defence to avoid removal. First a roll to hit, then wound, then save. This is the basic combat mechanic. Many abilities and mechanics bypass one of these defences, whether removing a save, or autowounding, or whatever. Other mechanics add extra layers of defence, such as extra wounds, rerolled saves, and so forth. The system more or less works, until you start introducing things that bypass too much of the concept. This is why Rending in previous editions was so unbalancing - it bypassed too many defences. There was no reason to take much of anything other than Rending if you could get it. JotWW is the same - it bypasses basically every single defence, including the defences of extra wounds or being inside a unit. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

Tanks.

Show me a single model that has a 33-50% chance of killing any tank regardless of armor value ans special rules and then we have an equivalent problem. Hell, a twin-linked railgun only has a 37% chance of going through AV10, but at least it scales with other armor values.

It's like if there was a 24 inch psychic power that read "draw a line, any vehicles must roll on the vehicle damage chart as though it received a penetrating hit" kind of thing.

Ostrakon wrote:
Show me a single model that has a 33-50% chance of killing any tank regardless of armor value ans special rules and then we have an equivalent problem. Hell, a twin-linked railgun only has a 37% chance of going through AV10, but at least it scales with other armor values.

It's like if there was a 24 inch psychic power that read "draw a line, any vehicles must roll on the vehicle damage chart as though it received a penetrating hit" kind of thing.

Deffrollas, though admittedly the line is only 13"

And it's D6 penetrating hits at AP1 . . . lol

Oshova

I think he meant vehicles kinda negate Jaws. IE a unit in a transport ignores it completely.

But, yes, it is a very useful ability and poorly thought out. As a SW player, I am happy to use it, especially against people who argue that Storm Caller doesn't benefit vehicles- fine more Jaws it is :-) Otherwise Living Lightning and Storm Caller work for me.

Yeah Njal and 3 Rune Priests cruising round in Rhinos is one of my favourite Space Wolf Tactics. =]

Oshova

Oshova wrote:And it's D6 penetrating hits at AP1 . . . lol

Oshova

Wait, those are AP1 penetrates? I thought they were simply S10 hits, not auto-penetrates.

Jesus...

Deff Rollas aren't AP1.

Nurglitch wrote:Deff Rollas aren't AP1.

That's what I thought.

So that's not even close to Jaws' power range. It's got a solid 32% chance of taking out an LR, but only if it's within 12 (or 13) inches and only if all intervening units fail their LD. And this chance correctly scales up as armor values decrease.

Ostrakon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Deff Rollas aren't AP1.

That's what I thought.

So that's not even close to Jaws' power range. It's got a solid 32% chance of taking out an LR, but only if it's within 12 (or 13) inches and only if all intervening units fail their LD. And this chance correctly scales up as armor values decrease.

Intervening units don't have to fail their LD...

Gorkamorka wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Deff Rollas aren't AP1.

That's what I thought.

So that's not even close to Jaws' power range. It's got a solid 32% chance of taking out an LR, but only if it's within 12 (or 13) inches and only if all intervening units fail their LD. And this chance correctly scales up as armor values decrease.

Intervening units don't have to fail their LD...

Well it depends on the kind of unit, so you're right, that's not really a fair comparison. But if it's a unit with something like melta bombs there's not an insignificant chance that the BW will get wrecked or immobilized. The point is that it's another check on the deffrolla. It doesn't have the ability to simply point at a model and say "you die on a 3+".

Ostrakon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Deff Rollas aren't AP1.

That's what I thought.

So that's not even close to Jaws' power range. It's got a solid 32% chance of taking out an LR, but only if it's within 12 (or 13) inches and only if all intervening units fail their LD. And this chance correctly scales up as armor values decrease.

Intervening units don't have to fail their LD. If they pass, they move out of the way and let the Rolla keep going, unless they perform a succesful DoG after passing LD.


Anyway, yes, Jaws is stupidly good. It is leterally the best way to take out the toughest units in the games, barring the high initiative Eldar/DE.
C'tan? 1/3 chance its gone.
3++ Termies? Same.
Greater Deamons/Deamon Princes? Hasta luego.
Ork ICs/Nobs? Kiss them goodbye.
IG leaders imbeded in a CCS, and completely surrounded by Guardsmen so that they are untouchable? Buh-bye.
The list goes on....

Heck, at least the Eldar's Mind War, Orks' Squig Power, and DA's Mind Worm require some kind of dice rolloff before your uber model goes "poof"!. Then, Mind War even allows cover/invul saves. Whoever approved Jaws to make the final cut of the codex must have been taking some really strong meds at the time.

Jaws literally forces you to mech up everything or lose your best stuff; the problem is that certain lists can't/won't mech up. Also, continually playing a pure mech list can get pretty boring, if you never mix it up

Going Mech = Making Money.
JoTWW = Forcing Mech.
Hmm.... JoTWW = Making Money.

Profit for GW! Yaaa...wut?

Sanctjud wrote:Going Mech = Making Money.
JoTWW = Forcing Mech.
Hmm.... JoTWW = Making Money.

Profit for GW! Yaaa...wut?

Never attribute to malice that which can be described as incompetence. I think JotWW is more of a BALANCE FAIL than some genius marketing scheme.

It's kind of hard for Necron, Daemon, and Tyranid players to mech up.

You spend, minimum, 215pts for a mobile runepriest. Wherever that be in a rhino, bikes or a jump pack, So it aint cheap. It has a 30" effective range but that is only technically true.. at 30" it is pretty rubbish, effecting only one model (and easy to counter with placement).

So it comes into play when you get close (12-18" lets say) and thats charge/melta range for most worthy units. And that 215pt has minimal effectiveness vs tanks.

But JotWW is pretty potent, it just requires players to up their game a bit. I'm curious.. if you field rune priests in either rhino rush or coming down in 1st-turn drop-pods.. what is a good anti-mech option to work in tandem?

Razerous wrote:You spend, minimum, 215pts for a mobile runepriest. Wherever that be in a rhino, bikes or a jump pack, So it aint cheap. It has a 30" effective range but that is only technically true.. at 30" it is pretty rubbish, effecting only one model (and easy to counter with placement).

So it comes into play when you get close (12-18" lets say) and thats charge/melta range for most worthy units. And that 215pt has minimal effectiveness vs tanks.

But JotWW is pretty potent, it just requires players to up their game a bit. I'm curious.. if you field rune priests in either rhino rush or coming down in 1st-turn drop-pods.. what is a good anti-mech option to work in tandem?

You've got a pretty good point. Tyranid players should just make sure their Carnifices always stay 30 inches away from the SW razorback. Presumably Necron players should do the same. And all ork players need to do is make sure their open-topped vehicles don't get destroyed.