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Snaad wrote:

In_Theory wrote:Not only does JotWW become the most potent anti-MC weapon, it also hoses dreadnoughts/walkers left and right.
Positioned properly, a JotWW will still eat 2/3 Killa Kans in the mob on a 3+.

Not to mention Orks have little in the way of anti-psyker defense as it is.

It doesnt work on vehicles, so killa cans and dreads are safe.

Killa Kans and Dreds aren't vehicles, they're walkers.

Hmmm My C:SM doesn't really agree. it says:
Unit Type:
-Vehicle (Walker)

I'd Say that makes it a Vehicle with the subtype walker. If the power states it doesn't work against Vehicles then this would fall into that category.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Oh really? Well, then, quite a few people have been playing it wrong...as in every SW player I know.

Woohoo!

Jaws of the World Wolf is simply ridiculous. One Psychic power that can pretty much shut down a full codex ( Tyranids ). No ability should be that good, so easy to cast and have a range of 24" ( lol not even random ie: 4d6) and gets past toughness, armor, inv save or cover save, wounds, eternal warrior and can single out ANY model in a unit. Almost wonder if this was balanced by Gav Thorpe.

2+ roll kills: Biovore, Carnifex, Pyrovore, Mycetic Spore, Old One Eye, Tervigon, Tyranofex
3+ roll kills: Hive Guard, Ripper + Sky Swarms
4+ roll kills: Venom and Zoanthropes
5+ roll kills: Doom of Mal, Gargoyal, Mawloc, Termagant, Trygon, Trygon Prime, Tyranid Warrior / Shrike, Tyranid Guard
6+ roll kills: Harpy, Hive Tyrant, Hormagaunt, Harpy, Ravenar, and Tyranid Prime

This is simply, hands down, the best weapon / ability in the game. Only a few armies have a possible realistic defense for it: Psychic Hood and Runes of Witness ( I believe this is the one ). Shadow of the Warp is good but the 12" makes it near useless. Only other option is to go full mech and not all codex's can and in GW infinte wisdom made tyranids have absolutely none.


Many people will jump to defend JotWW I am sure but let me put it in another light. Lets say the new Blood Angels psychic ability blood lance worked differently. Lets say the ability was also 24" ( no 4d6 roll ) but worked like JotWW but only vs vehicles with this twist: instead of rolling vs iniative it works vs armor and the higher you have the easier it is:

2+ roll kills: AR 14 Vehicles
3+ roll kills: AR 13 Vehicles
4+ roll kills: AR 12 Vehicles
5+ roll kills: AR 11 Vehicles
6+ roll kills: AR 10 Vehicles

The Vehicles and if any, all passengers are removed from the game. No Save, No Cover, No invulnerables, No need to roll on penetration / Glance table. Simply if you roll higher then then the AR Value that you are facing ( see the above chart ) remove the vehicle from play ( passengers if embarked as well ) and treat them as casualties for KP purposes.

If such an ability existed, how many of you would scream bloody murder ( except Tyranids )? How many codex's would this one ability cripple? Hell. this ability and JotWW are on par with Rogue Trader days of the Vortex Grenade but even better! No small template that could scatter like the Vortex Grenade, straight line Vortex Beam that goes 24", that can sniper hidden PW Fist. IC's etc. and thats not even the best part! You can use it every turn as long as your RP is alive. There is not one single ability ( that I am aware of ) that is that devastating in any army and a price cost if one were to assign it would be astronomical to keep game balance. Granted while JotWW has no effect on vehicle, it has no point costs and simply free with a 100 pt RP.

Though don't hate the SW players that play it, as its not their fault. The attention should be turned to the poor game design / play testing that this ability inflicts and for that, only GW is to blame.

I don't have the SW dex atm, but I thought MCs got a bonus against JotWW?

skkipper wrote:faced it once at adepticon. I made both my checks then destroyed the rp in h2h

To be read as:

I had a very limited experience against this at an open tournament. The player only managed to fit 2 models underneath a 24" line, I then had moderate luck and managed to pass both of the tests required by the ability. I preceded to assault a combat specialist of sorts and kill it.

Here's another example of the mentality of that post:

I have vs'd Lash Prince Oblits before. The Lash Prince failed his test and lost a wound to perils of the warp. The obilterators rolled mostly ones and also lost several wounds. I then assaulted the Prince and Oblits and killed them in combat.

ANYWAY

As listed by

Borris the Blade wrote:
Many people will jump to defend JotWW I am sure but let me put it in another light. Lets say the new Blood Angels psychic ability blood lance worked differently. Lets say the ability was also 24" ( no 4d6 roll ) but worked like JotWW but only vs vehicles with this twist: instead of rolling vs iniative it works vs armor and the higher you have the easier it is:

2+ roll kills: AR 14 Vehicles
3+ roll kills: AR 13 Vehicles
4+ roll kills: AR 12 Vehicles
5+ roll kills: AR 11 Vehicles
6+ roll kills: AR 10 Vehicles

The Vehicles and if any, all passengers are removed from the game. No Save, No Cover, No invulnerables, No need to roll on penetration / Glance table. Simply if you roll higher then then the AR Value that you are facing ( see the above chart ) remove the vehicle from play ( passengers if embarked as well ) and treat them as casualties for KP purposes.

If such an ability existed, how many of you would scream bloody murder ( except Tyranids )? How many codex's would this one ability cripple? Hell. this ability and JotWW are on par with Rogue Trader days of the Vortex Grenade but even better! No small template that could scatter like the Vortex Grenade, straight line Vortex Beam that goes 24", that can sniper hidden PW Fist. IC's etc. and thats not even the best part! You can use it every turn as long as your RP is alive. There is not one single ability ( that I am aware of ) that is that devastating in any army and a price cost if one were to assign it would be astronomical to keep game balance. Granted while JotWW has no effect on vehicle, it has no point costs and simply free with a 100 pt RP.

Though don't hate the SW players that play it, as its not their fault. The attention should be turned to the poor game design / play testing that this ability inflicts and for that, only GW is to blame.

That's a little over the top, simply stating something like, on a 4+ destroy the vehicle under the 24" line, would easily prove the point. The problem is of course that MC are MUCH less mobile then mech, so it is important to note that the ability is for BA that, for the purposes of this thread, are a viable jump pack or drop pod army.

People WOULD scream blue murder, all those freaking mech armies would FINALLY have a hard counter that isn't 9+ melta's per army.

The worst part, is this would never happen because:

a) Mech armies cost more to build then zilla or horde armies.
b) Zilla and horde armies are second to Mech armies in power, and nothing hurts game balance/design crews than rocking the meta game.
c) It's GW.

Although I hate all forms of whiners about rules and such, this thread is IMHO VERY justified as JotWW is a stupid counter to a sub-par army in a top tier list. It GREATLY reduces the possible strength of a potential army and thus reduces the variance of army lists in competitive play.

I'm looking forward to when the new DE codex is released and they have a new transport without open top, has str 9 lance weapon(s) and is only slightly more expensive in points. Why? Because that way GW can sell another few million tanks at inflated prices

ihatehumans wrote:

skkipper wrote:faced it once at adepticon. I made both my checks then destroyed the rp in h2h

To be read as:

I had a very limited experience against this at an open tournament. The player only managed to fit 2 models underneath a 24" line, I then had moderate luck and managed to pass both of the tests required by the ability. I preceded to assault a combat specialist of sorts and kill it.

Here's another example of the mentality of that post:

I have vs'd Lash Prince Oblits before. The Lash Prince failed his test and lost a wound to perils of the warp. The obilterators rolled mostly ones and also lost several wounds. I then assaulted the Prince and Oblits and killed them in combat.

ANYWAY

Well to be detailed I play demons and was in his face turn 1. I was very careful to keep my guys out of a straight line from the RP. when he did fire it turn two. he hit the thirster and a crusher. sure could i have lined up my crushers so he hit all six followed by the thirster yes. but I didn't I was smart. it kills carnifex's on a 3+. is it powerful against some armys sure. but is next to useless against other armies. if I include skull taker vs nids. he instant deaths carnis even quicker.

yes jaws is a tough power but like lash. it can be combatted.

Furthermore, what happens when JotWW spam armies start becoming popular?

I don't have the SW book, so I may be overestimating the possibilities. But as I understand it, Wolves can for some reason take 4 HQs. Other than a couple of gimmicks like Logan giving Long Fangs Relentless, is there any reason not to take 4 Rune Priests with JotWW and a different second power? With bonus attacks, the ability to add in Wolf Guard, and all the special weapon options, every single SW squad can become in effect a small powerhouse squad - beatable by a specialist assault squad perhaps, but still able to inflict some serious damage, and still able to beat virtually anything non-specialised in melee. At range, they're no easier to kill than normal marines, which is to say not easy at all. I would imagine it's fairly simple to fit 4 JotWW Priests with small to medium Troops squads armed with melta and powerfists, and slap them in pods or transports. Army Builder tells me I can do that and still have points left over to add a few more vehicles and more pods. Again, I don't have the SW book though, so I'm hoping I'm wrong.

As I see it, JotWW spam armies are no less effective than any other mech or podding army. Every squad has the same elements and functionality - melta, hidden powerfist, and delivery to target. However, with no real disadvantages, JotWW spam has the added bonus of acting basically as the old double Fury librarian lists, except, of course, with quadruple JotWW. In other words, any non-elf army with any significant infantry elements, or any horde army, is toast. So all the Guardsmen and Commissars and so on save on 4+, so Marines save on 3+ - doesn't matter. They may save one JotWW easily, but when 2 or 3 come ripping through you from different angles on Turn 1? Plus the regular pod shooting?

Hopefully I am just overestimating the army possibilities, but I don't see any downside to JotWW spam compared with any regular mech or pod army. I just hope nobody tries the laughable argument of 'well, nobody uses infantry any more, so its balanced'.

I have thought long and hard about this whole subject and I believe that, though I don't collect Tyranids, it is one of the greatest codices ever made.

It combines a real nice balance with some very powerful models and a whole lot of variety.

unfortunately, due to one gimpy psychic power, the book is effectively barred from hyper-competetive play.

Bad, bad GW.

Relic_OMO wrote:Furthermore, what happens when JotWW spam armies start becoming popular?

I don't have the SW book, so I may be overestimating the possibilities. But as I understand it, Wolves can for some reason take 4 HQs. Other than a couple of gimmicks like Logan giving Long Fangs Relentless, is there any reason not to take 4 Rune Priests with JotWW and a different second power? With bonus attacks, the ability to add in Wolf Guard, and all the special weapon options, every single SW squad can become in effect a small powerhouse squad - beatable by a specialist assault squad perhaps, but still able to inflict some serious damage, and still able to beat virtually anything non-specialised in melee. At range, they're no easier to kill than normal marines, which is to say not easy at all. I would imagine it's fairly simple to fit 4 JotWW Priests with small to medium Troops squads armed with melta and powerfists, and slap them in pods or transports. Army Builder tells me I can do that and still have points left over to add a few more vehicles and more pods. Again, I don't have the SW book though, so I'm hoping I'm wrong.

As I see it, JotWW spam armies are no less effective than any other mech or podding army. Every squad has the same elements and functionality - melta, hidden powerfist, and delivery to target. However, with no real disadvantages, JotWW spam has the added bonus of acting basically as the old double Fury librarian lists, except, of course, with quadruple JotWW. In other words, any non-elf army with any significant infantry elements, or any horde army, is toast. So all the Guardsmen and Commissars and so on save on 4+, so Marines save on 3+ - doesn't matter. They may save one JotWW easily, but when 2 or 3 come ripping through you from different angles on Turn 1? Plus the regular pod shooting?

Hopefully I am just overestimating the army possibilities, but I don't see any downside to JotWW spam compared with any regular mech or pod army. I just hope nobody tries the laughable argument of 'well, nobody uses infantry any more, so its balanced'.

Please borrow a codex and make a good list with 4 Rune Priests. (Here's a hint: it's not going to happen).

Borris the Blade wrote:Jaws of the World Wolf is simply ridiculous. One Psychic power that can pretty much shut down a full codex ( Tyranids ). No ability should be that good, so easy to cast and have a range of 24" ( lol not even random ie: 4d6) and gets past toughness, armor, inv save or cover save, wounds, eternal warrior and can single out ANY model in a unit. Almost wonder if this was balanced by Gav Thorpe.

LOL! Gav certainly has that rep.

For me Jaws is simple to explain. Only two possibilities:
1. GW never playtests anything throughly enough and this power was a mistake.
2. GW wants to sell a lot of Space Pups and this power was intentionally broken.

Either way, GW is a pretty poor company when it comes to supporting the game. Oh that's right, for GW this is a hobby and gamers are an annoying evil.

Im perpetually amazed at the QQ over this psychic power.

I play both nids and wolves, and at adepticon this year my nids in the Team Tourney got toasted by an unlucky pairing and good casting of jaws.

my wolves lost a game in the sunday championship because my rune priest had jaws and living lighting insted of living lighting and murderous hurricane.

its all about give and take, and I'm sorry that one type of unit in one codex has one power that is marginally more effective at killing a few of your guys than the lascannons and plascannons they could be taking.

but THAT is NOT what makes the new nid codex bad.

the stacking of all the anti tank in the elite slot with venomthropes and deathleaper is partially what makes them bad

the complete lack of invul saves helps to make them bad

no frag grenades on genestealers definately makes them bad.

think about it, is the power really so bad?

the Run Priest has to be in a position to hit your guys, (within 24", hint, if you screened with gants/stealers, you would probably be in assault range on your turn)
the Rune Priest has to pass a psychic test (remember Shadows of the Warp, if you screened with gants/zoanthropes he is likely within the 12" of them)
then you have to fail an I test, (remember the +1 you get on your MCs)

Learn to adapt tactics, its not the end of the world. I've played with Jaws on my runepriests for more than a handful of tournaments now, and the best thing its done for me is kill a lone grey hunter stuck in combat (allowing me to shoot the unit he was stuck with) and snipe a powerklaw before it crushed my Wolf Lord.

QuietOrkmi wrote:May I remind some people that there existed a character that by being within 18" of results in your IC turning into a squig about as often as a TMC gets removed off the board...

Personally If I knew my opponent was using jaws I would just position my TMC in a way that he could only hit one a turn, or just keep them away from the RP (the offending target must be within 24" to be the target of this psychic shooting attack or be directly behind someone that is).

As other people said, use warriors to destroy the RP...

Was it a 4 in 6 chance? Initiative 1 is the pits.

Jaws will gib a 'fex or tervie 1/3 of the time (I1 plus 1, so 3+ and he's toast). Trygons, on the other hand, only fail the I test on a 6 (I4 +1). Hive tyrants are the same. Tervigons are support units, which are typically in the back field or avoiding the rune priest anyway (as best it can), while spawning gaunts and bestowing onslaught/catalyst where it's needed most. So, this 'broken' power vs 'nids is really only a nuke to carnifexes, which typically rush forward trying to slice 'n dice whatever they can. Not many people use carnifexes anymore, either, because of the price increase.

All in all, while the power is good in certain situations, I don't feel it's broken. I might feel differently if i routinely failed initiative tests vs. space wolves, but that is not my experience so far.

Take Jaws vs a mech eldar list and tell me again how broken the power is?

I'd much rather have murderous hurricane and/or tempests wrath and/or living lightning.

Wildstorm wrote:

Borris the Blade wrote:Jaws of the World Wolf is simply ridiculous. One Psychic power that can pretty much shut down a full codex ( Tyranids ). No ability should be that good, so easy to cast and have a range of 24" ( lol not even random ie: 4d6) and gets past toughness, armor, inv save or cover save, wounds, eternal warrior and can single out ANY model in a unit. Almost wonder if this was balanced by Gav Thorpe.

LOL! Gav certainly has that rep.

For me Jaws is simple to explain. Only two possibilities:
1. GW never playtests anything throughly enough and this power was a mistake.
2. GW wants to sell a lot of Space Pups and this power was intentionally broken.

Either way, GW is a pretty poor company when it comes to supporting the game. Oh that's right, for GW this is a hobby and gamers are an annoying evil.

I agree 100% with both posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Borris the Blade wrote:Jaws of the World Wolf is simply ridiculous. One Psychic power that can pretty much shut down a full codex ( Tyranids ). No ability should be that good, so easy to cast and have a range of 24" ( lol not even random ie: 4d6) and gets past toughness, armor, inv save or cover save, wounds, eternal warrior and can single out ANY model in a unit. Almost wonder if this was balanced by Gav Thorpe.

2+ roll kills: Biovore, Carnifex, Pyrovore, Mycetic Spore, Old One Eye, Tervigon, Tyranofex
3+ roll kills: Hive Guard, Ripper + Sky Swarms
4+ roll kills: Venom and Zoanthropes
5+ roll kills: Doom of Mal, Gargoyal, Mawloc, Termagant, Trygon, Trygon Prime, Tyranid Warrior / Shrike, Tyranid Guard
6+ roll kills: Harpy, Hive Tyrant, Hormagaunt, Harpy, Ravenar, and Tyranid Prime

This is simply, hands down, the best weapon / ability in the game. Only a few armies have a possible realistic defense for it: Psychic Hood and Runes of Witness ( I believe this is the one ). Shadow of the Warp is good but the 12" makes it near useless. Only other option is to go full mech and not all codex's can and in GW infinte wisdom made tyranids have absolutely none.


Many people will jump to defend JotWW I am sure but let me put it in another light. Lets say the new Blood Angels psychic ability blood lance worked differently. Lets say the ability was also 24" ( no 4d6 roll ) but worked like JotWW but only vs vehicles with this twist: instead of rolling vs iniative it works vs armor and the higher you have the easier it is:

2+ roll kills: AR 14 Vehicles
3+ roll kills: AR 13 Vehicles
4+ roll kills: AR 12 Vehicles
5+ roll kills: AR 11 Vehicles
6+ roll kills: AR 10 Vehicles

The Vehicles and if any, all passengers are removed from the game. No Save, No Cover, No invulnerables, No need to roll on penetration / Glance table. Simply if you roll higher then then the AR Value that you are facing ( see the above chart ) remove the vehicle from play ( passengers if embarked as well ) and treat them as casualties for KP purposes.

If such an ability existed, how many of you would scream bloody murder ( except Tyranids )? How many codex's would this one ability cripple? Hell. this ability and JotWW are on par with Rogue Trader days of the Vortex Grenade but even better! No small template that could scatter like the Vortex Grenade, straight line Vortex Beam that goes 24", that can sniper hidden PW Fist. IC's etc. and thats not even the best part! You can use it every turn as long as your RP is alive. There is not one single ability ( that I am aware of ) that is that devastating in any army and a price cost if one were to assign it would be astronomical to keep game balance. Granted while JotWW has no effect on vehicle, it has no point costs and simply free with a 100 pt RP.

Though don't hate the SW players that play it, as its not their fault. The attention should be turned to the poor game design / play testing that this ability inflicts and for that, only GW is to blame.

I love this post!

Gavo wrote:Killa Kans and Dreds aren't vehicles, they're walkers.

Utterly irrelevent. Jaws doesn't have a list of things that are not affected, it lists the things that are affected. Whether or not walkers are vehicles, they certainly are not monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, or infantry. They are not affected by this power.

Raxmei wrote:

Gavo wrote:Killa Kans and Dreds aren't vehicles, they're walkers.

Utterly irrelevent. Jaws doesn't have a list of things that are not affected, it lists the things that are affected. Whether or not walkers are vehicles, they certainly are not monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, or infantry. They are not affected by this power.

Ding ding ding! Finally, someone can read

Raxmei wrote:

Gavo wrote:Killa Kans and Dreds aren't vehicles, they're walkers.

Utterly irrelevent. Jaws doesn't have a list of things that are not affected, it lists the things that are affected. Whether or not walkers are vehicles, they certainly are not monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, or infantry. They are not affected by this power.

Okay thanks for that. I need to get my hands on a SW codex instead of listening to my friends.

Although I agree with the sentiments about Jaws being counter to the game, I think it important that the numbers be correct. MC's do get a -1 to the die roll so Carnifex die on a 3+ not 2+. The problem is that Tervigon, Tyranofex and Carnifex are suppose to be standard Tyranid options and they now cost a tremendous amount of points. If you have a RP in a Rhino, he can travel quite a distance to pop off his Jaws. Even if he only gets one MC and a few others before he goes, which is not normally the case, that is still a good exchange of points. A number of good players have tackled the problem and have not come up with a useful solution. My own is to simply not allow it in games in which I play. It is the opponents choice as to whether to agree or not. In tournaments there is no choice!

horsa wrote:Although I agree with the sentiments about Jaws being counter to the game, I think it important that the numbers be correct. MC's do get a -1 to the die roll so Carnifex die on a 3+ not 2+. The problem is that Tervigon, Tyranofex and Carnifex are suppose to be standard Tyranid options and they now cost a tremendous amount of points. If you have a RP in a Rhino, he can travel quite a distance to pop off his Jaws. Even if he only gets one MC and a few others before he goes, which is not normally the case, that is still a good exchange of points. A number of good players have tackled the problem and have not come up with a useful solution. My own is to simply not allow it in games in which I play. It is the opponents choice as to whether to agree or not. In tournaments there is no choice!

Pretty sure the point on fexes dying on 3+ was established and understood due to MCs getting a plus 1 to int.

To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

(deathleaper) is the way to fix jaws, N/A SW hoods aka lots of stuf. the -LD is so good vs a lot of stuf and never killing DL is a +. his good for othere stuf to long fangs droping a tank ive been testing him a lot and i like him i do run like 10 psyker in my 2500 list for nids. losing a elites slot is a kick in the balls tho. in large point games ive been testing leaper. his is good in lots of games drop him in the back of your army or us it 2 slow people down going in cover the -d6 mtc is sick and going to ground for a 2+ is nice. test him out some see what you think.

Something that people don't seem to point out about Jaws of the World Wolf is that everything along that 24" has to test. You don't have to string your bugs out along that line, and you can position your buys so that trying to cast Jaws of the World Wolf results in more dead Space Wolves.

you can always look at the bright side that the brought a rune priest instead of another unit of 5 missle launcher long fangs.

skkipper:

What, Rune Priests are Heavy Support now? Both units are surprisingly easy to roll in close combat.

Something to mention is that while the Deathleaper is cool and all, a brood of Lictors will have a better chance of assassinating a Rune Priest, and can also be used to sexually molest Long Fangs.

Agreed, I'll be using the deathleaper or brood of lictors soon.

've found an easy counter to RP. Star your big baddies off the table. Onslaught your Hive guard/Zoans. 6"+d6 +18/24" will get you a shot at the RP rhino.

Take Yarg.Stealers. set you Big baddies Behind the cover they are in, If the RP want to get within 24" of the baddies, he's in range of the stealers.

I say psychic hood to your JotWW that being said I hate this particular ability I agree that it really can break the game.

People seem to misunderstand the "QQ" attached to this ability.

It's not that it's so absurdly OP that taking a RP with JotWW instantly wins you the game.

It's more that the ability is generally too good, not instant win, but easily counters some lists just by it's very existence.

It's stupid to take a SW list without AT LEAST one JotWW RP, just like it's stupid to take a SM/Imperial army without a psychic hood. You can win without it, but it's easier to win with one.

It's just sad to see such a strong ability, in arguably the strongest codex, that counters a weak codex's best stuff. DL is a good counter-counter but realistically isn't always perfect.

I REALLY hope that in the next few codexes GW decides to add in some super anti-mech ability so that the incredibly broken vehicle damage chart feels the wrath of the GW fail design team

sexiest_hero wrote:'ve found an easy counter to RP. Star your big baddies off the table. Onslaught your Hive guard/Zoans. 6"+d6 +18/24" will get you a shot at the RP rhino.

Take Yarg.Stealers. set you Big baddies Behind the cover they are in, If the RP want to get within 24" of the baddies, he's in range of the stealers.

Do you have way of keeping the TFex off the table that I missed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:I say psychic hood to your JotWW that being said I hate this particular ability I agree that it really can break the game.

Hive Tyrant with PHood... that would be funny. Anyways, Shadow in the Warp keeps getting referred to as a counter. Its not an effective counter. It never works for me. One time out of like 20. Additionally, the Rune weapon nullifies my powers on a 4+(the character 3+ I think) with no d6 plus LD thing. Not only does the RP eat my MCs, I usually can't use my powers around him.