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Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

streamdragon wrote:

Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

Please explain...

Byte wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

Please explain...

Because it's a shooting attack...he can't shoot twice...

Hmmm. Guess I need to watch my opponents closer.

People seem to misunderstand the "QQ" attached to this ability.

Exactly...

I'm tired of people saying "it's not that overpowered, the chances of it working are xyz, and you can always do abc..."

It's not that it's too powerful. It's a little over the top, but it's not an issue of it being game breakingly powerful. Stop responding to a point that's not being made.

The issue is that it's stupid and unfun in two key ways:

1) Against certain lists (admittedly very few) it's close to an auto win.
2) In certain relatively common situations, it can totally change a game.

If they had a power that makes you automatically beat Tyranids, would that really be fun? No. This rule is a lot more like that than it's not.

If they had a power that let you roll a D6 at the start of the game, and if you rolled a 6, you automaticaly won, would that be fun? Again, NO.

The problem with this power is that there's no bell curve to it. It tends to either comepletely ruin the other guy, or do nothing. There's also virtually no defense against it for most lists, save hoping for some luck.

It just KILLS models, no matter who, no matter how many wounds, no matter whatver, about one time in 6.

That's not necessarily overpowered, it's just stupid. It's too much of either NOTHING or HUGE WIN. It needs to be more moderated. Or, if it must be those extremes, it needs to be them less of the time. Say, for example, it auto kills 1 in 36, but does 2 wounds 1 in 3. Or whatever

Phryxis wrote:

People seem to misunderstand the "QQ" attached to this ability.

Exactly...

I'm tired of people saying "it's not that overpowered, the chances of it working are xyz, and you can always do abc..."

It's not that it's too powerful. It's a little over the top, but it's not an issue of it being game breakingly powerful. Stop responding to a point that's not being made.

The issue is that it's stupid and unfun in two key ways:

1) Against certain lists (admittedly very few) it's close to an auto win.
2) In certain relatively common situations, it can totally change a game.

If they had a power that makes you automatically beat Tyranids, would that really be fun? No. This rule is a lot more like that than it's not.

If they had a power that let you roll a D6 at the start of the game, and if you rolled a 6, you automaticaly won, would that be fun? Again, NO.

The problem with this power is that there's no bell curve to it. It tends to either comepletely ruin the other guy, or do nothing. There's also virtually no defense against it for most lists, save hoping for some luck.

It just KILLS models, no matter who, no matter how many wounds, no matter whatver, about one time in 6.

That's not necessarily overpowered, it's just stupid. It's too much of either NOTHING or HUGE WIN. It needs to be more moderated. Or, if it must be those extremes, it needs to be them less of the time. Say, for example, it auto kills 1 in 36, but does 2 wounds 1 in 3. Or whatever

I agree wholeheartedly. I play 'nids and it is NO FUN. I play regularly against pups and its pretty much like shooting fish it a sink. I packed them up today.

If you're unwilling to adapt and overcome, you can always ask your opponent to choose some other psychic power in the interest of playing a close game rather than a foregone conclusion.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Byte wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

Please explain...

Because it's a shooting attack...he can't shoot twice...

To elaborate a bit, not only can he not shoot twice, but the BRB specifically states that unless otherwise stated, no psyker can use the same power twice in a turn. I believe only Eldrad has that ability thusfar.

It's also worth pointing out that if your opponent uses JotWW, there's only a couple powers that he can use if he bothered to upgrade to a Master of the Runes: Storm Caller and I think it's Murderous Hurricane. EVERY other power is a psychic shooting attack.

For what it's worth, I play both Space Wolves (my first army) and Tyranids (my second army). When I saw JotWW I was basically just glad I was the only SW player in my group. My regular opponents are mostly other Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar or Eldar.

needless to say, JotWW doesn't see much use on my table as the average I for my enemies is above 4. I do take it against Chaos Space Marines, mostly because I frelling HATE Plague Marines. It's also a decent way to avoid dealing with 1K Sons' invulnerable saves, as long as my RP is in Terminator armor.

steamdragon:

All Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch can cast Warptime and Gift of Chaos multiple times, while Ahriman has special dispensation to fire off all three of this psychic shooting powers. Well, according to the FAQ, but we all know that the FAQ occasionally re-writes the rules.

Nurglitch wrote:If you're unwilling to adapt and overcome, you can always ask your opponent to choose some other psychic power in the interest of playing a close game rather than a foregone conclusion.

You sound like you are either space wolf player hating the hate in which case I feel you.

The other explanation is you're a Tyranid player who has "adapted and overcame" in which case I would like to hear how as I feel it would add to the discussion quite a bit.

After rereading this ended up sound a little more jerkish than intended so please take no offense none was meant.

TheBlackVanguard:

No worries, everyone sounds like a jerk on the Internet. I'm not sure if I mentioned it on this thread, but the threat of the Jaws of the World Wolf has me in problem-solving mode. It seems to me that there are three ways that a Tyranid player can go about handling the Jaws of the World Wolf:

1. Mitigate its effectives by making sure that when I1 Monstrous Creatures like Tervigons and Carnifexes line up, they line up parallel to any Rune-Priests in the area. Also, make sure that any viable targets also carry a risk of friendly fire.

2. Mitigate the ability to cast it, via the Shadow in the Warp and effects such as Deathleaper's Leadership modifier, and the Aura of Despair psychic power. Engaging the Rune Priest in combat to interdict the power is also an option because it is a psychic shooting power.

3. Kill the Rune Priest.

Each of these tactics comes at a cost. There's a strategic cost to not taking vulnerable models, and to taking Jump Infantry and other unaffected models, and making sure that a Rune Priest can't pot more than one I1 Monstrous Creature a turn can leave you out of position to do other stuff. The Death Leaper is expensive and vulnerable despite a host of special rules, Genestealers are likewise, and so are units like Shrikes and the Parasite. Killing a Rune Priest is harder than it looks because you usually need to chew through an army of Space Wolves first.

The best thing to do would be to combine these options, but in the absence of all three, the combination of one or two might be good. Strategically I'd say take a brood of Lictors, since you can get two for the price of the Death Leaper, They can turn up just about anywhere, and if they can't then the Rune Priest faces a friendly-fire issue or is essentially backed into a corner. They have assault grenades and I6, rending in both shooting and combat with Scything Talons in combat, WS6 S6, A3+1, stealth to survive that initial round of firing all Tyranids have to survive, move through cover and fleet to get them to their target, hit and run to take them somewhere less hostile if they survive the assassination, and Ld10 to keep them useful outside of Synapse. They can even shoot with S6 Rending when they pop up.

Pyrovores in a Mycetic Spore also crossed my mind. The Spore can land close to the Rune Priest, dismounting the Pyrovores and giving them a shot with their Flamespurt. They have Instinctive Behaviour: Feed, so if you place them right they'll head straight for the Rune Priest. A few Heavy Flamer shots should thin his bodyguard squad. The important thing about them, besides the Acid Maw, is their Acid Blood and Volatile. Volatile is nice, but it's the Acid Blood that means you can use the Space Wolves' Counter-Attack and myriad armament against them. Volatile, well, they probably won't shoot the Pyrovore with a Melta Gun after that, but it'll be funny the first time.

Obviously there are many ways to try to minimize the pain JOTWOWW brings to TMC heavy lists... However, let's not try to put lipstick on a Carnifex, it's bad, bad news no matter what you do.

Two models that a lot of the popular Nid lists feature are the T-Fex and the Tervigon. Both are extremely vulnerable to JOTWOWW, and both cost (typically) in excess of twice what the RP does.

The RP is going to get a shot, and he's probably going to kill at least one.

To make matters worse, it means the TMCs are likely to die early. This is very bad for a Tervigon, since it needs to have a couple turns to get some Gaunts on the table.

To make matters yet more and yet still worse, Nid lists play best when they move as one large supporting group. It's hard to prevent a double MC shot and still play the army to its strength, meaning that even by coping, you're being made weaker.

The simple fact is that a competent general with JOTWOWW will beat anybody with 2+ TMCs almost every time.

Nurglitch wrote:steamdragon:

All Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch can cast Warptime and Gift of Chaos multiple times, while Ahriman has special dispensation to fire off all three of this psychic shooting powers. Well, according to the FAQ, but we all know that the FAQ occasionally re-writes the rules.

I have this special black hole in my brain where the Chaos 'dex is concerned, especially in regards to Tzeentch...

Phryxis:

Actually I don't think that is a fact. I remember reading similar things back in 4th edition and the beginning of 5 edition about the Lash of Submission. But you know what? People eventually adapted, and at least around my area nobody worries about the Lash of Submission any more than they would about any other psychic power.

That's all good and well to say 'just stay away' but the board is only so big, and it means he has a giant control zone he can move where he wants, while you are wasting moves just to stay away from it.

I personally think it's a completely broken power, far too powerful in comparison to ANY other army's psyker abilities. But so are a lot of other things in this game broken, poorly planned (perhaps poorly tested) rules. Some codex that used to be awesome got nerfed by the 5th ed. rules changes (my poor harlequins and falcons) but others get written specifically to play into the 5th ed. (grrrr.... orks, SW, IG, all thing SMurfy) and by the time ALL the Codex get their update, 6th ed. will come out and it starts all over again.

JOTWW is just another example of codex creep. But I am of the opinion that if it's in the Codex, that's just the way it is. Some armies are playing rock-paper-scissors but without the paper, compared to other armies.

streamdragon wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Byte wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

Please explain...

Because it's a shooting attack...he can't shoot twice...

To elaborate a bit, not only can he not shoot twice, but the BRB specifically states that unless otherwise stated, no psyker can use the same power twice in a turn. I believe only Eldrad has that ability thusfar.

It's also worth pointing out that if your opponent uses JotWW, there's only a couple powers that he can use if he bothered to upgrade to a Master of the Runes: Storm Caller and I think it's Murderous Hurricane. EVERY other power is a psychic shooting attack.

For what it's worth, I play both Space Wolves (my first army) and Tyranids (my second army). When I saw JotWW I was basically just glad I was the only SW player in my group. My regular opponents are mostly other Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar or Eldar.

needless to say, JotWW doesn't see much use on my table as the average I for my enemies is above 4. I do take it against Chaos Space Marines, mostly because I frelling HATE Plague Marines. It's also a decent way to avoid dealing with 1K Sons' invulnerable saves, as long as my RP is in Terminator armor.

Storm Caller and Tempest's Wrath, you mean.

Agreed. JOTWW does NOT break the game. If you are a tyranids player, you should NOT be using the large creatures as a crutch. If you do take some carnifexes, keep them close withing shadows of the warp range. If you lose a biggy to JOTWW, the fault is only yours for letting it happen.

Nidz only way to beat it is hope to get there fast and take it out before too much damage is caused. I member right before the new nid codex came out I played a 2 JOTWW list with 6 Canifexs and a hive tyrant and I never made it past the halfway. His guys are so cheap I was rdy to quit the game before it started when i saw his models the power is broken beyond all belief I can't believe they released it.

jab4962 wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Byte wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

Byte wrote:To emphasize your point on point exchange, the silly pup character RP can shoot JAWS twice. AAARG!

Not in the same turn he can't.

Please explain...

Because it's a shooting attack...he can't shoot twice...

To elaborate a bit, not only can he not shoot twice, but the BRB specifically states that unless otherwise stated, no psyker can use the same power twice in a turn. I believe only Eldrad has that ability thusfar.

It's also worth pointing out that if your opponent uses JotWW, there's only a couple powers that he can use if he bothered to upgrade to a Master of the Runes: Storm Caller and I think it's Murderous Hurricane. EVERY other power is a psychic shooting attack.

For what it's worth, I play both Space Wolves (my first army) and Tyranids (my second army). When I saw JotWW I was basically just glad I was the only SW player in my group. My regular opponents are mostly other Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar or Eldar.

needless to say, JotWW doesn't see much use on my table as the average I for my enemies is above 4. I do take it against Chaos Space Marines, mostly because I frelling HATE Plague Marines. It's also a decent way to avoid dealing with 1K Sons' invulnerable saves, as long as my RP is in Terminator armor.

Storm Caller and Tempest's Wrath, you mean.

Agreed. JOTWW does NOT break the game. If you are a tyranids player, you should NOT be using the large creatures as a crutch. If you do take some carnifexes, keep them close withing shadows of the warp range. If you lose a biggy to JOTWW, the fault is only yours for letting it happen.

Wow...

Do you even play nids in this current edition against the new pups? Are you even familiar with how many models in the nid codex have INT 2 of worse? News flash, it's a lot more than just the carnifex! Shadows haven't worked for me one time and is actually laughable for my pups playing opponents.

Some of you guys forget, just as much as the tyranid commander is trying to keep his models on the table, the opposing player is trying to zap models off the table. Drop pod runepreists, jump pack RP, rhino rush RP, RP spam, you name it.

If you lose a biggy to JOTWW, the fault is only yours for letting it happen.

Totally dude. "Lern 2 paly," right?

You checked the range on JOTWOWW lately? And on SitW? Which one is bigger?

Guess what else? Getting SitW on the dude still only reduces his chances of getting off the spell to 50%, and increases the odds of a Perils check to about 15%.

And if he gets Perils? 1W. He's got 2. He curses his bad luck and shoots again next turn.

So what does all that mean?

It means that a 100 point model has a 33% chance to kill a 200+ point model even when JOTWOWW is as nullfied as possible, and with a single shot.

Conversely, that 100 point model has to get a pair of Perils to kill himself. The odds of doing that in 6 attempts? About 28%.

That's the absolute BEST CASE for the Nid player. If he can't get SitW on the RP, the chances of killing the Tervigon are at about 55%.

And that's assuming the SW player has absolutely no clue, and can't find a way to get more than one TMC under a 24" long line using things such as Drop Pods, Jump Packs, Bikes, and the simple realities of life which you seem completely unwilling to engage.

Are you serious, dude?

I don't think it's so terribly bad against a gaunt horde kind of army though. Do space marine players complain that Land Raiders are too vulnerable to melta weapons? or they get owned by plasma guns, or do they just balance their list a bit so the land raider and power armor isn't the only strength.

I play Eldar and I take Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons very often (because so many players at the store use MEQ), but the SM players I play against just deal with it and lose. Army mismatch. Oh well. I get mismatched by orks and 'nids horde armies, nids get mismatched by SW, SW get mismatched by plasguns, and so on. Again, with army matchups it's sometimes like rock-paper-scissors where one player isn't allowed to use paper.

Oh well. I am personally not at all threatened by the thing because I am lucky enough to have almost indestructable drop-n-pop skimmers that could single the RP out pretty quick, but I can see why other armies, notably 'nids and 'crons, would feel very frustrated.

Nids have a new book, and nid players naturally want to take all of the coolest stuff in their book to try it out, stuff that happens to be vulnerable to that power, but completely dominate against another different army.

Sorry nids, sometimes you have to just go back to the horde mentality, because all of your cool new tricks get killed off 1 per turn. Look on the bright side, you dominate against virtually any other army with all your MCs... so there's one guy out there that ruins your feasting frenzy... whaah whaaah fething waah.

(At least you got a new codex)

Hang on, let me get my soap box out.

Well first off, it's not just Nids. Necrons get screwed over, since half of their units are I2 and they won't get WBB (I don't think so anyway since they are "removed form play"). Orks and Guard barely get by thanks to being horde/Mech, but any unit caught footslogging it is a sitting duck and Tau can't go full mech quite as easy. Even units with a high I can be screwed over, since it's still a 1/6 chance for that expensive important unit to snuff it, where as the SAG only had 1/36 chance of that happening, and was just as likely to explode in your face. There's no saves, no need for LOS (someone see what happens if you sandwich the rune priest between two Rhinos), and it's every unit in that 24" line, so a competent Wolfs player could hit several units in one go without ever being counter attacked.

Quite a few people have be shouting "Adapt Or Die", but the problem is that the counters suck. Shadow is only 12", Psychic Hoods only work half the time and only a few armies get them, and if killing him was easy we wouldn't be here complaining. The player is being force to shoehorn units into his list to kill one unit in one army. End up being a waste of points.

So is JotWW the game breaking ability that some people have proclaimed it? Because of the vehicle heavy nature of 5th edition, I would be force to say no. But don't stand, er, sit there telling me it's fair and balanced.

They do get their WBB, this is found in the space wolves FAQ...

The only reference I saw to Necrons and WBB in the Space Wolf FAQ was in reference to Luka's and his Last Laugh ability.
Although it did state that it is a shooting attack and you do need LOS to the first model affected.

Guitardian wrote:I don't think it's so terribly bad against a gaunt horde kind of army though. Do space marine players complain that Land Raiders are too vulnerable to melta weapons? or they get owned by plasma guns, or do they just balance their list a bit so the land raider and power armor isn't the only strength.

... so there's one guy out there that ruins your feasting frenzy... whaah whaaah fething waah.

(At least you got a new codex)

Melta guns... Really? Last I checked, they still have to roll to hit, roll to pen, than roll the damage chart... You do the math compared to: Roll psychic test, 2d6 with LD 10. Plot your line to include as many enemy targets as possible regardless of LOS or terrain. Sit back and watch the carnage. At least bring a comparable example.

Yes, we did get a new codex. I like it very much. I hope you get yours soon as well.

3 to hit
2/3
7 to pen
7/12
6 to glance
5/36

4 to wreck on a pen
1/2

6 to wreck on a glance
1/6


so the math works out to be 2/3x(((7/12)x(1/2))+((5/36)x(1/6)))
Total propability works out to just over 1/5th (.209) chance to wreck a land raider from a single BS4 melta shot in double pen range... which can be armed on a 15 point space marine for free.

15 points can wreck a 250 point land raider crusader 1/5th the time in a single turn.

compare this to a 100 point rune priest that can kill a 160 point carnifex or tervigon....
psychic test passes on a 10
11/12

Carnifex fails I test with a +1 bonus
2/3
this works out to a 0.611 chance, lets examine the point cost vs work done here.

(proability to wreck/kill target)x(target value)/(cost of unit used to wreck/kill target)= unit job efficiency

Melta vs Land Raider
(0.209)x(250)/(15)= 3.48

Rune Priest vs Tervigon/Carnifex
(0.611)x(160)/(100)= 0.97

as you can see, its over 3 times more efficient

You could argue that the value of the entire marine squad needs to be taken into consideration, and Ill give you that, so lets look at the cheapest platform that I think of for melta... 3 wolfguard in a drop pod with combimeltas

(0.627)x(250)/(104)= 1.50

So even when the transport/delivery method is taken into consideration, the "humble" meltagun is STILL more efficient at killing land raiders of all varieties than Jaws of the world wolf is at killing its' easiest and most expensive targets, initiative 1 TMCs.




TLDR; its part of the game, everyone has to deal with counters to their best units.

TLDR; its part of the game, everyone has to deal with counters to their best units.

Does this mean, as an ork player, I cannot complain about large blast templates or flamers?

Demogerg wrote:3 to hit
2/3
7 to pen
7/12
6 to glance
5/36

4 to wreck on a pen
1/2

6 to wreck on a glance
1/6


so the math works out to be 2/3x(((7/12)x(1/2))+((5/36)x(1/6)))
Total propability works out to just over 1/5th (.209) chance to wreck a land raider from a single BS4 melta shot in double pen range... which can be armed on a 15 point space marine for free.

15 points can wreck a 250 point land raider crusader 1/5th the time in a single turn.

compare this to a 100 point rune priest that can kill a 160 point carnifex or tervigon....
psychic test passes on a 10
11/12

Carnifex fails I test with a +1 bonus
2/3
this works out to a 0.611 chance, lets examine the point cost vs work done here.

(proability to wreck/kill target)x(target value)/(cost of unit used to wreck/kill target)= unit job efficiency

Melta vs Land Raider
(0.209)x(250)/(15)= 3.48

Rune Priest vs Tervigon/Carnifex
(0.611)x(160)/(100)= 0.97

as you can see, its over 3 times more efficient

You could argue that the value of the entire marine squad needs to be taken into consideration, and Ill give you that, so lets look at the cheapest platform that I think of for melta... 3 wolfguard in a drop pod with combimeltas

(0.627)x(250)/(104)= 1.50

So even when the transport/delivery method is taken into consideration, the "humble" meltagun is STILL more efficient at killing land raiders of all varieties than Jaws of the world wolf is at killing its' easiest and most expensive targets, initiative 1 TMCs.




TLDR; its part of the game, everyone has to deal with counters to their best units.

There isn't any variable for multiple models affected per attack which isn't possible with a melta gun. Lets not even get into the probability of range. I get the whole math hammer thing, but this just doesn't make sense.

The first factor would be the comparable "to hit" roll. 67% for the Marine vice 83% for the RP. It just gets worse from there. Just saying...

that whole meltagun thing also doesn't factor in you are within 6inches of the opponent so if that LR doesn't die he is going to eat your lunch or w/e comes out will. Unlike jaws which really has no downside. I sit shoot and kill your 200+ model with rly no consequence for me I lost nothing no chance of even getting devastating return fire at this distance.

IF I played SM and had a land raider shot out in one turn from some deepstrike unit with a 15 point melta, I would be quite upset, whining about how unfair it is, but serves me right for putting all my stock into the LR. If I played a 'nid army and put all my stock in my carnifexes, and they got killed 1 by 1 easily by this one power I would also be quite upset. However if I was a 'nid player and stacked a list with carnifexes, and got a super duper victory against an army other than SW that couldn't deal with all my MCs I would be sitting there patting myself on the back about how great my army is, while my opponent would be whining about how unfair the new 'nid codex is, right? Get my point? Just shut up and EAT IT! (that's what tyranids do anyways)

Guitardian wrote:IF I played SM and had a land raider shot out in one turn from some deepstrike unit with a 15 point melta, I would be quite upset, whining about how unfair it is, but serves me right for putting all my stock into the LR. If I played a 'nid army and put all my stock in my carnifexes, and they got killed 1 by 1 easily by this one power I would also be quite upset. However if I was a 'nid player and stacked a list with carnifexes, and got a super duper victory against an army other than SW that couldn't deal with all my MCs I would be sitting there patting myself on the back about how great my army is, while my opponent would be whining about how unfair the new 'nid codex is, right? Get my point? Just shut up and EAT IT! (that's what tyranids do anyways)

Guitardian,

Please understand, as I've been trying to point out from the beginning of the thread. Its not just about the carnifex.

13 unit types have INT 3 or less. Including most of the shooty 'nids that everybody says is the counter.