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Byte wrote:"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."

This is from the FAQ. Pretty clear to me. But I see the point of assault canons and storm shields. Still seems like a bit of reaching to me.

Emphasis mine. The Blood Angels Demolisher Cannon is just an Ordnance weapon, not an Ordnance Blast weapon. Thus, it does not use the Large Blast marker.

as i mentioned i dont actually have the codex handy. I also dont want to get into an online argument over this, so this will be my last post on the topic, to avoid getting petty and inevitable decent into madness sure to follow.

if the entry your referring to is in the refrence section (ya know were all the other weapons are listed) then i would figure this is simply a type-o and should follow suit with the FAQ already in place, or default to standard SM vindicater / demolisher rules. since i believe their was a simaler issue with another SM demolisher cannon. if its in the armory section and detials this, then i would have to ask:

does this mean your arguing the weapon in question is a single shot no blast, akin to a lazcannon but bigger? does this fit the descriptor of the weapon? and is it obviously what the writers of the book intended it to be? if so, then i imagine theres going to be some mighty cheesed off BA vindicater players out there, who expect to be unleashing large blasts only to be told "well actually..."

-> me respectfully bowing out at this point. (as a side note - my 100th post!! yay! )

DarthSpader wrote: as i mentioned i dont actually have the codex handy. I also dont want to get into an online argument over this, so this will be my last post on the topic, to avoid getting petty and inevitable decent into madness sure to follow.

if the entry your referring to is in the refrence section (ya know were all the other weapons are listed) then i would figure this is simply a type-o and should follow suit with the FAQ already in place, or default to standard SM vindicater / demolisher rules. since i believe their was a simaler issue with another SM demolisher cannon. if its in the armory section and detials this, then i would have to ask:

does this mean your arguing the weapon in question is a single shot no blast, akin to a lazcannon but bigger? does this fit the descriptor of the weapon? and is it obviously what the writers of the book intended it to be? if so, then i imagine theres going to be some mighty cheesed off BA vindicater players out there, who expect to be unleashing large blasts only to be told "well actually..."

-> me respectfully bowing out at this point.

No, the entry is found BOTH on page 60 (the rules) and on page 96 (The Summary).

You know, I'm sure most of your blood pressures would be lower if people played a little nicer. Quick tally: does ANYONE think that this won't get fixed in the FAQ because GW did a bad copy/paste job?

It is impressive how thorough the alleged error in the Blood Angel codex is.

I can only assume that there's rampant copy-paste from some slightly out of date original source being used for the new non-codex codices, since the Hellfire rounds on page 27 are SX again, too.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:You know, I'm sure most of your blood pressures would be lower if people played a little nicer. Quick tally: does ANYONE think that this won't get fixed in the FAQ because GW did a bad copy/paste job?

agreed about the BP. but let's not hold our breath while we wait for the FAQ though.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:You know, I'm sure most of your blood pressures would be lower if people played a little nicer. Quick tally: does ANYONE think that this won't get fixed in the FAQ because GW did a bad copy/paste job?

Of course it will be fixed.

This does not change the fact that until it is, by the rules, BA Demolisher Cannon are NOT Blast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

solkan wrote:It is impressive how thorough the alleged error in the Blood Angel codex is.

I can only assume that there's rampant copy-paste from some slightly out of date original source being used for the new non-codex codices, since the Hellfire rounds on page 27 are SX again, too.

Yup, I noticed that too. Looks like Sternguard are Wounding on 2s with a Reroll vs T4 or less

Gwar! wrote:

Byte wrote:"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."

This is from the FAQ. Pretty clear to me. But I see the point of assault canons and storm shields. Still seems like a bit of reaching to me.

Ok, For the 5th time:

Blood Angels Vindicators are NOT Ordnance Blast. They are not Ordnance Barrage. They are not Ordnance Large Blast. They are not Ordnance Large Blast Barrage. They are not Ordnance Blast Barrage.

They are just Ordnance. Ordnance 1 to be exact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthSpader wrote:ive only glanced through the book and didnt see anything special about this, so im going on my general SM knowlege and not actually poring through the codex... so apologies if i come across as such.

Read page 60 of the Blood Angels codex, where it details the rules for a Demolisher Cannon. Specifically, it's "Type".

O goodness... your right Gwar. Your the authority. We all just here to reinforce your awesomeness.

Give me a break... Its clear that any "Ordnance" type weapon, unless specified otherwise is large blast. I'm not making this up, its right in the FAQ. So "Ordnance 1" means it uses large blast in the case of the BAs.

What is a Ordnance non blast weapon? Just saying...

Byte wrote:O goodness... your right Gwar. Your the authority. We all just here to reinforce your awesomeness.

Give me a break... Its clear that any "Ordnance" type weapon, unless specified otherwise is large blast. I'm not making this up, its right in the FAQ. So "Ordnance 1" means it uses large blast in the case of the BAs.

Where does it say this?

What is a Ordnance non blast weapon? Just saying...

Hellstrike Missiles, Page 56, Codex: Imperial Guard. They are Ordnance 1, One Shot.

MinMax wrote:

Byte wrote:"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."

This is from the FAQ. Pretty clear to me. But I see the point of assault canons and storm shields. Still seems like a bit of reaching to me.

Emphasis mine. The Blood Angels Demolisher Cannon is just an Ordnance weapon, not an Ordnance Blast weapon. Thus, it does not use the Large Blast marker.

Wow, would you actually play or make others play like that? Scary.

So Byte, Where is this "clear" rule you talk about? What FAQ? The one where it says Ordnance Blast uses the Large Blast Marker?

Also, I have shown another Non-Blast Ordnance Weapon, how do you respond to that?

Byte wrote:

MinMax wrote:

Byte wrote:"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."

This is from the FAQ. Pretty clear to me. But I see the point of assault canons and storm shields. Still seems like a bit of reaching to me.

Emphasis mine. The Blood Angels Demolisher Cannon is just an Ordnance weapon, not an Ordnance Blast weapon. Thus, it does not use the Large Blast marker.

Wow, would you actually play or make others play like that? Scary.

Would I play like that? If I were the Blood Angels player fielding the Vindicators, I would have to ask for permission to play any other way.

Were I playing against another Blood Angels player, fielding said Vindicators, I would of course give them permission to play the Demolisher Cannon as Ordnance 1 / Large Blast

Gwar! wrote:

Byte wrote:O goodness... your right Gwar. Your the authority. We all just here to reinforce your awesomeness.

Give me a break... Its clear that any "Ordnance" type weapon, unless specified otherwise is large blast. I'm not making this up, its right in the FAQ. So "Ordnance 1" means it uses large blast in the case of the BAs.

Where does it say this?

What is a Ordnance non blast weapon? Just saying...

Hellstrike Missiles, Page 56, Codex: Imperial Guard. They are Ordnance 1, One Shot.

Strange indeed. Is this an oversight or intentional you think? In the case of the Hellstrike.

I think the best place to check to see what your weapon should be classified as, is in the rule book, since the rule book= 40k law(except vs FAQ >_&gt .

In the rule book under space marines/black templars/blood angels/dark angels/ space wolves weapons section it states Demolisher cannon is large blast.

Also Id like to point out there is no such thing as an "Ordnance Blast" weapon. There is "ordnance, blast" and "ordnance, large blast", and "ordnance barrage" No such thing as "Ordnance Blast".

MinMax wrote:

Byte wrote:

MinMax wrote:

Byte wrote:"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."

This is from the FAQ. Pretty clear to me. But I see the point of assault canons and storm shields. Still seems like a bit of reaching to me.

Emphasis mine. The Blood Angels Demolisher Cannon is just an Ordnance weapon, not an Ordnance Blast weapon. Thus, it does not use the Large Blast marker.

Wow, would you actually play or make others play like that? Scary.

Would I play like that? If I were the Blood Angels player fielding the Vindicators, I would have to ask for permission to play any other way.

Were I playing against another Blood Angels player, fielding said Vindicators, I would of course give them permission to play the Demolisher Cannon as Ordnance 1 / Large Blast

K, just checking. whew.

Sometimes gamers can "rule" the fun right out of playing.

Byte wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Byte wrote:O goodness... your right Gwar. Your the authority. We all just here to reinforce your awesomeness.

Give me a break... Its clear that any "Ordnance" type weapon, unless specified otherwise is large blast. I'm not making this up, its right in the FAQ. So "Ordnance 1" means it uses large blast in the case of the BAs.

Where does it say this?

What is a Ordnance non blast weapon? Just saying...

Hellstrike Missiles, Page 56, Codex: Imperial Guard. They are Ordnance 1, One Shot.

Strange indeed. Is this an oversight or intentional you think? In the case of the Hellstrike.

From the IG FAQ:
Q. Do Hellstrike Missiles use the large blast template or are they non-blast ordnance?
A. They are non-blast ordnance weapons.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:I think the best place to check to see what your weapon should be classified as, is in the rule book, since the rule book= 40k law(except vs FAQ >_&gt .

In the rule book under space marines/black templars/blood angels/dark angels/ space wolves weapons section it states Demolisher cannon is large blast.

Also Id like to point out there is no such thing as an "Ordnance Blast" weapon. There is "ordnance, blast" and "ordnance, large blast", and "ordnance barrage" No such thing as "Ordnance Blast".

Read the first page of the Summary Pages, which states the codex trumps the rulebook where the Rulebook Summary Differs.

There is no such thing as an Ordnance, Blast weapon either, there are Ordnance 1, Blast, Ordnance 2, Blast etc etc. There is also no definition of the word "And". Some logic is needed to play 40k.

Why is there such a huge gathering against Gwar!?, he was simply pointing out another mess up in the editing department. This will prolly be switched to Ordnance, Blast. But RAW it is not, I believe the stormraven's missiles are Ordanance 1, similar to the Valkyrie's for another example of Ordanance (nonblast) weapons exist.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:I think the best place to check to see what your weapon should be classified as, is in the rule book, since the rule book= 40k law(except vs FAQ >_&gt .

In the rule book under space marines/black templars/blood angels/dark angels/ space wolves weapons section it states Demolisher cannon is large blast.

Also Id like to point out there is no such thing as an "Ordnance Blast" weapon. There is "ordnance, blast" and "ordnance, large blast", and "ordnance barrage" No such thing as "Ordnance Blast".

However, apparently there's an "Ordnance non-blast" in the case of the Hellstrike. Which fuels this fire. Really weird... Just doesn't seem right. Which goes back to the old "editor/janitor" thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Byte wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Byte wrote:O goodness... your right Gwar. Your the authority. We all just here to reinforce your awesomeness.

Give me a break... Its clear that any "Ordnance" type weapon, unless specified otherwise is large blast. I'm not making this up, its right in the FAQ. So "Ordnance 1" means it uses large blast in the case of the BAs.

Where does it say this?

What is a Ordnance non blast weapon? Just saying...

Hellstrike Missiles, Page 56, Codex: Imperial Guard. They are Ordnance 1, One Shot.

Strange indeed. Is this an oversight or intentional you think? In the case of the Hellstrike.

From the IG FAQ:
Q. Do Hellstrike Missiles use the large blast template or are they non-blast ordnance?
A. They are non-blast ordnance weapons.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:I think the best place to check to see what your weapon should be classified as, is in the rule book, since the rule book= 40k law(except vs FAQ >_&gt .

In the rule book under space marines/black templars/blood angels/dark angels/ space wolves weapons section it states Demolisher cannon is large blast.

Also Id like to point out there is no such thing as an "Ordnance Blast" weapon. There is "ordnance, blast" and "ordnance, large blast", and "ordnance barrage" No such thing as "Ordnance Blast".

Read the first page of the Summary Pages, which states the codex trumps the rulebook where the Rulebook Summary Differs.

There is no such thing as an Ordnance, Blast weapon either, there are Ordnance 1, Blast, Ordnance 2, Blast etc etc. There is also no definition of the word "And". Some logic is needed to play 40k.

Gwar,
No kidding, thanks for taking the long way around to explain your point on the "Ordnance 1" entry. I was getting caught up on the non-blast "ordnance" entry point. You proved that it exists with the hellstrike. I would have saw this if I read the IG FAQ. I see the light on how it can or would cause confusion to some in regards to the vindie.

~Byte~

Gwar! wrote:
Some logic is needed to play 40k.

My logic is telling me the janitor meant all weapons with ordnance somewhere in the profile when he typed "ordnance blast weapons".

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
Some logic is needed to play 40k.

My logic is telling me the janitor meant all weapons with ordnance somewhere in the profile when he typed "ordnance blast weapons".

Except there is no rules backing for this whatsoever.

I failed... like 3 times... I am sad face now.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:I failed... like 3 times... I am sad face now.

I would have agreed with your point prior to the IG Hellstrike non-blast Ordnance light being turned on for me.

On a related note, Vindicators are now Blood Angels best anti-tank weapon. S10, Ordnance, effective 36" range, no silly scatter dice (until the inevitable FAQ)!

Yeah, that'd be a great "upgrade" for BA; I'd totally play it that way given the option.

On a related note, Vindicators are now Blood Angels best anti-tank weapon. S10, Ordnance, effective 36" range, no silly scatter dice (until the inevitable FAQ)!

I agree now the Vindicator becomes one of the best anti tank units in the game

Hey Gwar, have another beer, I don't think you've pissed on the game enough yet.

D'oh! Didn't look at which Codex the FAQ was for. My bad.

Nurglitch wrote:Hey Gwar, have another beer, I don't think you've pissed on the game enough yet.

GW messes up their editing and suddenly it's Gwars fault. Great logic you have there.

THERE IS NO LOGIC ONLY RAW.... and Zuul.

These things need to be debated and quoted if you're planning on tourney play. Or would you rather be blind sided when the little hateful rule Nazi whips out the rule book and says "well here's what this says and here's what that says and here's 50 pages of errata" and when he does that 5 times per game he's gonna get you with at least one. Like those ****ers with more pages of errata than cards who play CCGs. if you dont know your rules well enough to argue them (like me), These arguments might save you from being steamrolled someday, and therefore, are productive, educational, and funny).

and it is Gwars fault, but once he writes the FAQ and GW steals and posts it, all will be right.

I think part of the confusion in this is coming from a slight misunderstanding of the different types of Ordnance weapons.

For the record, Ordnance weapons and Ordnance Barrage weapons are two different types of weapon.

All Ordnance Barrage weapons are Blast weapons.
Not all Ordnance weapons are Blast weapons... this has to be stated in their profile.

The Demolisher Cannon is not a Barrage weapon. Just regular Ordnance. As such, it is not inherently a Blast weapon.

So the lack of a Blast descriptor in the BA codex is a problem. An obvious one, that I suspect will be errata'd, and which everyone will play as a Blast weapon anyway...


Locking this now to avoid further silliness.