Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rules don't provide an answer. It's up to the players to develop one.

This is much more an issue in Battlemissions and APOC than 'regular' 40k. In standard 40k, I would hope players can figure out how to deploy to avoid first turn assaults on their vehicles. In BM and APOC, it may not be possible due to some deployment methods.

If you expect it to be an issue, discuss with your opponent beforehand. It may also be helpful to differentiate vehicles that make Scout moves from those that can't.

Well there's always special cases like vangard...

Nightwatch wrote:In friendly games, to keep it realistic the following could apply: measure the distance from the edge of the board to the front of the vehicle, and treat that as the distance it moved last turn (if more than its maximum move, treat it as its maximum move distance). This could make the game more true to life, but it isn't a rule. Tournament Organizers will likely call for a different solution.

I think Nightwatch had a good house rule solution to the issue. I like it because it makes logical sense (vehicles don't just start magically in place).

Fair to provide an option for units to be considered haveing moved before the game begins? Its just as fair as ruling that all those units magically appeared in their locations and did not move.

As it stands, its not covered by RAW.

Saying that one should be able to see a first turn assault army list and avoid the situation is a nice idea, but its just a way of sidestepping the issue. And..........how would one deploy to avoid a first turn assault from an ork army loaded with deffkoptas (scouts, jetbikes), kommandos (infiltrate) and a warphead (chance of first turn waaagh)? If one is in a fully meched army keeping away from this just isnt going to be possible in most games.


Sliggoth

ork armies suck, nothing that can hit first turn is a huge threat unless its a wagon in a dawn of war game.

Gwar is right

@shoggoth Actually, this is one of those rare occasions that Gwar is not right. He stated that vehicles are automatically hit because they did not move in their previous turn; because they didnt have a previous turn. That however, is not what the rules are interested in. The rules say that if the vehicle was stationary in its previous turn its automatically hit. Quite a different concept.

Also, three str7 auto hits per deffkopta against the rear armor isnt a huge threat? Granted LR and monoliths arent going to be worried, but since almost anything else is going to be av10 thats a significant problem.




As has been pointed out previously, most regular games of 40k this isnt going to be a major problem. First turn assaults arent easy to arrange in normal games. In more specialized scenarios such as battlemissions, apoc and some tourneys its going to be a bit more of a problem.

Sliggoth

In around 5/6ths of the cases, yes, good players will be able to avoid being first turn charged. But not, for instance, if you have a true alpha-strike Guard list and your opponent gamely puts out Battlewagons or Land Raiders on his front lines, so your Vendettas slide up to his lines hoping to deploy your Veterans to Melta/Meltabomb him to death. Only he Seizes the Initiative.

Perhaps it was a stupid move on his part, putting his vehicles so close with no intervening units, but it wasn't a stupid move on your part since 5/6 of the time it's an autowin for you.

But once you've had the Initiative Seized on you, and your opponent can charge you, does he hit your vendettas/valkyries on a 6 or autohit? The only logical thing to do IMO is say it is a 6 because there are no rules for what to do when the vehicle hasn't had a first turn yet, and it's consistent with the other movement and to hit rules.

Those vehicles didn't move prior to first turn. Otherwise I'd have been able to pop smoke also while I was at it to have a first turn 4+ save. I say they autohit.

Ravenwing Bikes and Attack Bikes can get into assault on first turn even if you are on your edge. Had this come up with necrons and we rolled off for auto or 4 +. I would assume that everything on the table is stationary on turn 1. Deployment does not represent movement ove the army but the starting positions when it became a battle. Previous speeds are debatable unless I get all my cover saves for my bikes and speeders whe you steal the initative because they turbo'd to get to field of battle. Turn 1 both sides are caught flat footed and let the battle begin.

The models didnt move in their previous turn, because there wasnt one. Hitting automatically therefore makes more sense then claiming a 4+ or 6+ to hit because of imagined movement.

I play mechdar, and frequently play against ork armies with multiple kopta units with buzzsaws. Got me the first time, because I didnt pay attention. Never worked on me again.

And nobody has provided any argument rules wise for why the vehicles should get a "counts as moved" in assault.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:
And nobody has provided any argument rules wise for why the vehicles should get a "counts as moved" in assault.

Nobody has provided any argument rules wise for why the vehicles should get a "counts as stationary" in assault either. Therefore, you hit on a...

Gwar provided one
way to not read the thread

Have to agree with Gwar and the others on this one.

It's the players fault if he sets up too close. IMHO

I think the people making the arguement that the vehicle "was not stationary" are just being TFG here.

The vehicle was not moving, its there (by whatever means) stationary getting prepared for it's phase of movement.

You autohit of course

Koski wrote:I think the people making the arguement that the vehicle "was not stationary" are just being TFG here.

The vehicle was not moving, its there (by whatever means) stationary getting prepared for it's phase of movement.

You autohit of course

Logically yes. i would have no problem being autohit as long as my scouts are hit on sixes, because they both have EXACTLY the same amount of rules justification. Only thing is is that many people who think non-scouting vehicles are autohit would ALSO argue that moving scouts are also autohit, which is also being TFG.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Gwar provided one
way to not read the thread

No, Gwar did not provide one. Claiming that there is an argument for your position somewhere else is not an argument.

i would play that if the vehicle is assaulted in turn 1 i counts as stationary but if it performed a scout move i would count it as moving

IMHO that would be the fairest way to play it

How are bunkers hit in combat on the first turn? I would go by those rules, and (I assume- no BRB here) hit automatically.

Scouts probably get their hard-to-hit saves and rolls.

The rules don't cover it so roll-off if you can't decide.

Edit: Common-sense-mind with Catachan_Devil

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Gwar provided one
way to not read the thread

Gwar provided a flawed one which really wasn't backed up by the RAW.

You cannot possibly satisfy any of the conditions given which define what you hit on on the first turn of the game. (unless you immobilize the vehicle in the shooting phase)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soup and a roll wrote:How are bunkers hit in combat on the first turn? I would go by those rules, and (I assume- no BRB here) hit automatically.

The rules for buildings specifically say "they are hit automatically (just like stationary vehicles)."

Hilariously enough, moving through difficult terrain during the scout move and getting immobilized is the only situation the rules cover.

I think that given the complete absence of rules, this is just going to have to be put to bed as a "Make an agreement with you opponent before the game starts" situation.

We're not saying that the vehicle should be hit on 4's or 6's, we're just saying that by RAW, you cannot be automatically hit since you did not have a previous turn to move (or remain stationary in). It is a situation that breaks the game.

You will have to resolve it with your opponent, but there is no RAW ruling for auto hits and there is also no RAW ruling for 4+'s or 6+'s to hit either.

Wow I can't believe this is even a real question.

Vehicles cannot have moved before the top of the first turn unless they used scout. So if something wants to know how much they moved, the answer is zero.

The part that is tripping people up is the when it asks about last turn. There was no last turn though. Pretty easy when you think about it.

as i stated earlier..

Catachan_Devil wrote:i would play that if the vehicle is assaulted in turn 1 i counts as stationary but if it performed a scout move i would count it as moving

IMHO that would be the fairest way to play it

who cares how the vehicle got there - i might be a suprise attack.. the 2 forces didn't agree to meet and commence the battle at a certain time or place

all that matters is what has occurred once the game starts

i know the scout move isn't exactly in a turn but i am not going to be TFG to say it didn't move in a actual turn

my suggestion with the new battle missions is don't deploy your vehicles 12 inches from the edge - most of those scenarios are suprise attacks anyway

Some people seem to not understand how far a first turn assault can be delivered, setting up too close is the phrase often used.

A deffkopta is a jetbike with scout. So in a normal game it can deploy 12" onto the table, then take a scout move of 24", then take a normal move of 12", then assault 6". Thats 54" from the ork players table edge, which gives the kopta range to the opponents table edge and then 6" along that edge....

Now changing how your army deploys by dismounting a mech force can restrict the kopta's movement, and just putting everything into reserve removes the first turn assault start entirely. But, either option is also destroying the defending army's strategy. Going fully into reserve is fine if the army is built to do that (altho even then it can bite the player, as reserve rolls can be fickle) but most armies arent built to come in from reserve. And the whole idea of a mech army is to be INSIDE of their vehicles, not deployed on the ground to act as shields.



For a mech force, there is no way to deploy on the table out of range of a first turn kopta assault without some sort of screening force.

So if the ork player spends 60 points per buzzsaw kopta, the other army is going to pitch their entire game plan and deployment out the window? Looks like a cheap plan for the orks.

Will also be interesting if the new DE codex has any scout units....LOTS of potential for first turn assaults then.



Sliggoth

Shinkaze wrote:
Wow I can't believe this is even a real question.

Vehicles cannot have moved before the top of the first turn unless they used scout. So if something wants to know how much they moved, the answer is zero.

The part that is tripping people up is the when it asks about last turn. There was no last turn though. Pretty easy when you think about it.

Wow I can't believe this is even a real response.

Vehicles cannot have had a previous turn at the top of the first turn. So if something wants to know how much they moved, the answer is null, because there's no previous turn to determine it from.

The part that is tripping people up is when they believe the fact there was no last turn means you can assume values for things that happened in that non-existant turn. You can't assume those values though. Pretty easy when you think about it.

Although I think both sides have an equally valid arguement I'm siding on Vehicle's counting as "not moved". Simply because I agree with Gwar's remark that if you are daft enough to field models within assualt distance then you deserve to be punished for it. That, and I also think that its logical that both forces would have paused briefly to survey the battlefield and setup emplacements and positions ready for an advance.

Thats the camp I'm staying in anyhow ... ... ... now, does anyone have any marshmallows?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Shinkaze wrote:
Wow I can't believe this is even a real question.

Vehicles cannot have moved before the top of the first turn unless they used scout. So if something wants to know how much they moved, the answer is zero.

The part that is tripping people up is the when it asks about last turn. There was no last turn though. Pretty easy when you think about it.

Wow I can't believe this is even a real response.

Vehicles cannot have had a previous turn at the top of the first turn. So if something wants to know how much they moved, the answer is null, because there's no previous turn to determine it from.

The part that is tripping people up is when they believe the fact there was no last turn means you can assume values for things that happened in that non-existant turn. You can't assume those values though. Pretty easy when you think about it.

QFT

RAW: game broken
RAI: My head hurts.
HYWPI: Auto-Hit

Problem solved. move on.

Personally, HYWPI is 4+ - it's a compromise.

Demogerg wrote:RAW: game broken
RAI: My head hurts.
HYWPI: Auto-Hit

Problem solved. move on.

Wow! I never realized that my opinion was the only solution possible! I guess that really does give me the right to be a condescending !

HellsGuardian316 wrote:Although I think both sides have an equally valid arguement I'm siding on Vehicle's counting as "not moved". Simply because I agree with Gwar's remark that if you are daft enough to field models within assualt distance then you deserve to be punished for it.

2 Deffkoptas. On a 72"x48" Table. Deployed 12" From their own table edge and 18" from side table edge.

As Sliggoth pointed out Deff has 24 + 12 + 6 = 42" threat range. I don't think I'm 'daft' or 'stupid' that I didn't deploy outside their assault range.

EDIT: Better attachment. Lousy anyway, but better