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I note that there aren't any rules for the to hit roll versus vehicles in the first turn if you happen to achieve a first turn assault and go first. That's because the to hit table refers to the movement in the vehicle's last turn, which doesn't exist if your opponent goes first and gets a first turn charge. Am I missing somewhere where it states that if the vehicle didn't have a movement phase yet then it gets autohit?

As an aside, I got to this conundrum by wondering about what the to hit roll would be against scouting vehicles in this same situation (since, after all, the last time they moved they can move over 6", but it's not in a "movement phase".) Then I noticed that not only aren't there rules for hitting previously scouting vehicles in CC, there aren't rules for non-scouting vehicles either in the same situation (unless they're Immobilized)!

So it boils down to, as far as I'm concerned, if someone were to insist that scouting vehicles are autohit in CC because they haven't had a "movement phase" yet, it's equally valid to argue that merely assaulting vehicles in CC in the first player turn of the game just breaks the game, because there aren't rules at all for what you need to hit vehicles in that situation!

Common sense be damned. But Gwar will possess the correct answer, as he always has

I don't know, but I think arguing that because you're able to assault first turn "the game is broken", it kind of seems like TFG behaviour to me.

Basically, what I'm saying is that common sense would tell you that you get autohit if your opponent gets the first turn and hits you before you have a chance to move. Common sense would also tell you that if you get hit on the first turn, but have had a chance to move during the Scouts move, you should only be hit based on your movement. It's just that that's not what the rules say.

I can foresee some people possibly arguing that you would get autohit even if you scout moved because the to hit table refers to movement that happens during your movement phase and scouts move is not a movement phase. I'm just saying that since there's no clear rule saying that even nonmoving vehicles get autohit, there's no clear rule to say that scouting vehicles get autohit either.

Personally if I were a TO I'd rule that non-scouting vehicles get autohit and scouting vehicles get hit based on their movement.

I'm going to implement my new principle by saying that this is one of the many holes in the rules and you should either ask the TO before a tourny to roll a die and figure it out or you and your opponent agree upon it before the game. This is again one of the many areas which need to be explicated before a tourny.

I've been avoiding the other thread about scout move cover saves because it's a no win situation and now this thread starts up, should just combing these two. It's based on the same thing is the scout move considered a movement phase.

I would say if you assault in first turn theres been no opportunity to move the vehicle, therefore auto hit.
Note, RAW doesnt say 'previous movement phase' it says 'previous turn'

RAW i would support the fact that scout move is not included within the assault rules. so again auto hit.

To apply the 'most important' rule I would apply the logic "has the vehicle moved before the assault occured?", meaning i would roll to hit if the vehicle moved in the scout move according to the distance moved.

In friendly games, to keep it realistic the following could apply: measure the distance from the edge of the board to the front of the vehicle, and treat that as the distance it moved last turn (if more than its maximum move, treat it as its maximum move distance). This could make the game more true to life, but it isn't a rule. Tournament Organizers will likely call for a different solution.

whoops

"For additional support, Ork FAQ says: "

doesnt apply here right?

Seriphis wrote:"For additional support, Ork FAQ says: "

doesnt apply here right?

Indeed it does not, apparently I posted in the wrong thread. Which is odd, as I hadn't read this one.

Pretty simple though, the rules are badly written and just don't handle it. I've always seen it played as using the scout movement, stationary otherwise.

Seriphis wrote:I would say if you assault in first turn theres been no opportunity to move the vehicle, therefore auto hit.
Note, RAW doesnt say 'previous movement phase' it says 'previous turn'

RAW i would support the fact that scout move is not included within the assault rules. so again auto hit.

To apply the 'most important' rule I would apply the logic "has the vehicle moved before the assault occured?", meaning i would roll to hit if the vehicle moved in the scout move according to the distance moved.

RAW Supports nothing as it says previous turn, since turn 1 has no turns before it... there can be only auto hits, anything else is attempting to gain knowledge of a zero.

I would say the conditions of whether or not there are auto hits depends on the movement of the vehicle last turn. Since there is no "last turn," you can't say it's automatically auto hits because the condition for applying them is not there. What should happen is not covered by the rules. A scout move happens immediately after deployment, which is not a "turn" in the way that cc hits on vehicles describe.

It's the same situation as in the other thread when trying to move onto reserve when your board edge is blocked. The rules can't handle the situation, but that doesn't mean the unit is destroyed automatically. It's just one houserule out of several that have been applied.

synchronicity wrote:I would say the conditions of whether or not there are auto hits depends on the movement of the vehicle last turn. Since there is no "last turn," you can't say it's automatically auto hits because the condition for applying them is not there. What should happen is not covered by the rules. A scout move happens immediately after deployment, which is not a "turn" in the way that cc hits on vehicles describe.

It's the same situation as in the other thread when trying to move onto reserve when your board edge is blocked. The rules can't handle the situation, but that doesn't mean the unit is destroyed automatically. It's just one houserule out of several that have been applied.

You are completely correct. This is a complete hole in the rules, saying that it is an auto hit is not supported by the rules.

The rule is based on how far the vehicle moved "in its previous turn." There is literally no reason for assaulting a vehicle on the first turn to be an automatic hit situation. There is neither rules nor logic behind this (in the sense that in a battle, the troops don't get into positions and stand idle waiting for some referee to yell "go" before engaging in combat).

Nightwatch's rule is an intelligent solution, and would work well in friendly games.

If I were a TO, I would rule that you need a 4+, since in a combat encounter, a tank would be moving at combat speed prior to the battle in order not to outstrip the footsloggers in the army. This also neither penalizes going second too harshly, nor makes the first-turn assault useless.

I would say this even for a mechanized army, for the sake of fairness.

Thank goodness I'm not for those of you with trukks full of tankbustas!

MekanobSamael wrote:
Thank goodness I'm not for those of you with trukks full of tankbustas!

Trukks full of tankbustas can't get a first turn assault...
...or even be full of tankbustas and attempt to do so

"Battle missions - Change the way you look at your 40K world"
1st turn assaults happen, and its nasty!

In one mission, an opponent can deploy anywhere on the table except 12' from any table edge.

So if in theory he deploys a vehicle 12' out from a table edge, We got ourselves a first turn assault people.

GarG wrote:"Battle missions - Change the way you look at your 40K world"
1st turn assaults happen, and its nasty!

In one mission, an opponent can deploy anywhere on the table except 12' from any table edge.

So if in theory he deploys a vehicle 12' out from a table edge, We got ourselves a first turn assault people.

Trukks can't be deployed full of tankbustas, as they're dedicated transports for boyz/nobz only.
They have to embark and then can't voluntarily disembark that turn.
So despite any odd deployment areas involved, trukk-mounted tankbustas can't usually turn 1 assault.

That and the normal 95+% of games where trukks can't get into turn 1 assault range regardless of their passengers.

Now deffkoptas...

As has been said, the hit table doesn't cover 1st turns. I usually play 4+ as a compromise.

You hit automatically.

Here is why:
Player 1: Did the vehicle move in it's last turn?
Player 2: It didn't have a last turn.
Player 1: So it cannot have moved in it's last turn!

Therefore, you hit automatically.

This I disagree with, Gwar! The rule is not: cruising=6+ combat=4+ otherwise=auto The vehicle was not stationary in it's previous turn as it didn't have a previous turn so you do not qualify for auto-hits.

Gwar! wrote:
Here is why:
Player 1: Did the vehicle remain stationary in it's last turn?
Player 2: It didn't have a last turn.
Player 1: So it cannot have remained stationary in it's last turn!

Therefore, you cannot hit automatically.

We attack the vehicle and look at the chart:

"is immobilised or was stationary in its previous turn" - nope
"moved at combat speed in it's previous turn" - nope
"moved at cruising speed in it's previous turn" - nope

OMFG!!1! divide by zero!

To say that you auto hit is a reasonable extrapolation of the rules onto a situation that's not covered but it's not RAW. It's equally reasonable to assume that vehicles moved into position before the battle began and give them 4+ or 6+.

It would get autohit IMHO, here's my 'reasoning' on this:

In real life scouts are on the battlefield for a loooong time, scouting out possible ambush spots and enemy defences/ position. They might have been there for hours, yet our toy soldier game does not give us the time to put our scouts on in the middle of the game before us.

It would not be like the scouts start zooming across the battlefield seconds before the shooting like chickens with their heads cut off.

This question is a subset of a long standing problem with 40k rules. Somehow the units had to arrive at their position where the game begins...but the rules dont cover it.

Did the units all move into their current locations and then wait there an indeterminate amount of time for the game to begin? One would have to think that all the units on the table actually had recently moved to arrive at their current locations.

This is important for several units in several armies that have rules that only apply if they moved on the previous turn.


A simple house rule (and it is ONLY a house rule, and it has the unfortunate property of making sense) is to allow each player to place a token next to each unit that counts as moving on its previous (pregame) turn. Its simple, fast, and will probably never be addressed by GW.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:A simple house rule (and it is ONLY a house rule, and it has the unfortunate property of making sense) is to allow each player to place a token next to each unit that counts as moving on its previous (pregame) turn. Its simple, fast, and will probably never be addressed by GW.

Ok sure.

ALL MY MODELS MOVED ELEVENTY BILLION INCHES PRE GAME.

Turn 1 comes and there is absolutely no drawback. So rather than being punished for my idiotic deployment, I have just gained a huge advantage.

How is that fair?

The game does not apply its rules to anything that has happened before a game e.g. a tank driving 100 miles to the battlefield a Space Marine Squad being landed by a Thunderhawk/drop pod etc

Therefore if there has been no previous turn the vehicle hasn't moved because it has had no movement phase.

If it has a scout move it still hasn't moved as it has has no movement phase.

Gwar is right.

It's not a drawback if both players are able to use it. It MIGHT coincidentally be a drawback to an army geared for 1st turn assaults, but the game does that sometimes. Conversely, the "run" mechanic happens to benefit assaulty armies.

Saying they hit automatically is a huge advantage to a 1st turn assaulting army in the first place. There are no rules to handle this and if it counts as "remained stationary", so it will require a house rule.

Edit: Furthermore, one can say in order to count as "remaining stationary," you require a last turn movement. That is the only RAW I can see covering this situation. Since there is no last turn movement, it is impossible to say the vehicle "remained stationary." They two rules are not mutually exclusive.

synchronicity wrote:It's not a drawback if both players are able to use it. It MIGHT coincidentally be a drawback to an army geared for 1st turn assaults, but the game does that sometimes. Conversely, the "run" mechanic happens to benefit assaulty armies.

Saying they hit automatically is a huge advantage to a 1st turn assaulting army in the first place. There are no rules to handle this and if it counts as "remained stationary", so it will require a house rule.

Edit: Furthermore, one can say in order to count as "remaining stationary," you require a last turn movement. That is the only RAW I can see covering this situation. Since there is no last turn movement, it is impossible to say the vehicle "remained stationary." They two rules are not mutually exclusive.

The thing is, 1st turn assault armies can be seen a mile off and with a very select few units. If you deploy in such a way that the enemy gets the 1st turn assault, you deserve to be punished for your poor deployment.

Gwar! wrote:

synchronicity wrote:It's not a drawback if both players are able to use it. It MIGHT coincidentally be a drawback to an army geared for 1st turn assaults, but the game does that sometimes. Conversely, the "run" mechanic happens to benefit assaulty armies.

Saying they hit automatically is a huge advantage to a 1st turn assaulting army in the first place. There are no rules to handle this and if it counts as "remained stationary", so it will require a house rule.

Edit: Furthermore, one can say in order to count as "remaining stationary," you require a last turn movement. That is the only RAW I can see covering this situation. Since there is no last turn movement, it is impossible to say the vehicle "remained stationary." They two rules are not mutually exclusive.

The thing is, 1st turn assault armies can be seen a mile off and with a very select few units. If you deploy in such a way that the enemy gets the 1st turn assault, you deserve to be punished for your poor deployment.

That is a ridiculous and subjective statement. But it's not RAW. One could say this situation requires you to be subjective. In that case, it's a house rule.

Ed_Bodger wrote:
If it has a scout move it still hasn't moved as it has has no movement phase.

Gwar is right.

He isn't, in this case. His argument can be applied equally to not moving. Has the vehicle remained stationary in it's previous movement phase? No, so you don't get autohit.

There is no RAW answer for this so it can get added to the long list of things that players need to agree. Personally, I think a 4+ is a reasonable compromise, but you may disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

synchronicity wrote:Edit: Furthermore, one can say in order to count as "remaining stationary," you require a last turn movement. That is the only RAW I can see covering this situation. Since there is no last turn movement, it is impossible to say the vehicle "remained stationary." They two rules are not mutually exclusive.

QFT

Simple answer...the game breaks.