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There is a more competitive DH build:

2 squads of GKT in Crusaders supported by IST with meltaguns in Rhinos.

Pure GK is not very competitive these days; however, the Tri-Raider list, when played right, isn't necessarily bad. I've tabled Marines, Wolves, Blood Angles, Eldar (both kinds), and Nids. On the flip side, Orks and Tau are tough to defeat with standard LR's, while defeating Chaos is quite a problem. Daemons are lucky if they don't get tabled. I've only ever tied versus a well run SoB list.

While I see people above quoting builds, each game is based on terrain and objectives, which a savy play can use to their advantage regardless of what army they actually play. A Tri-Raider list has benefits of being cheap to build, easy to field, and a joy to play as an underdog. Every win is a celebration! Every draw is a game well played. Every loss is a lesson best applied to future games.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:There is a more competitive DH build:

2 squads of GKT in Crusaders supported by IST with meltaguns in Rhinos.

Pure GK is not very competitive these days; however, the Tri-Raider list, when played right, isn't necessarily bad. I've tabled Marines, Wolves, Blood Angles, Eldar (both kinds), and Nids. On the flip side, Orks and Tau are tough to defeat with standard LR's, while defeating Chaos is quite a problem. Daemons are lucky if they don't get tabled. I've only ever tied versus a well run SoB list.

While I see people above quoting builds, each game is based on terrain and objectives, which a savy play can use to their advantage regardless of what army they actually play. A Tri-Raider list has benefits of being cheap to build, easy to field, and a joy to play as an underdog. Every win is a celebration! Every draw is a game well played. Every loss is a lesson best applied to future games.

SJ

I don't know why people limit themselves to pure GK, it is the same fluff wise to use the new guard book to fill your needs. It just also allows you to win.

Great you've tabled those armies, that says very little. Were they playing good competitive builds, were the players any good, how even were the rolls?

Also, savy play runs both ways, if each side is equally savy it comes down to how good a list you brought. You're being savy and playing for a draw is all well and good, but when a mech guard player built to win comes in you're going to be in tough. Of course you've admitted all of this.

People really should be able to discuss three Land Raiders without shouting at each other.

Sorry didn't mean to get you involved, but I'd rather not face flames when I can't throw my own back. I've been warned enough myself about this.

FACT: Even with 3 land raiders, you will still loose often

At last year's GT, there was one player with 3 Landraiders with 2 GK units and 1 GKT unit.
He was 2:1:2.

Norade Im just curious why you are so up in arms about how the guy wants to play. Honestly, I can see why he got defensive and made fun of you. Was it the right thing to do? No. But you kept throwing your view on why his list sucks so bad, and for no reason. Seriously, if its how the guy plays, its how the guy plays, and insulting his list choice isnt going to change it, or make you in the right.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents on that one. Ive honestly never played full GK so I cant toss my experience in on it. Ive faught against a squad of GKT a few times, and they were pretty damn nasty. I think with 3 LR your either going to seriously hurt someone, or get your face smashed. Its pretty much that cut and dry. Good luck in the tourny though

KingCracker wrote:Norade Im just curious why you are so up in arms about how the guy wants to play. Honestly, I can see why he got defensive and made fun of you. Was it the right thing to do? No. But you kept throwing your view on why his list sucks so bad, and for no reason. Seriously, if its how the guy plays, its how the guy plays, and insulting his list choice isnt going to change it, or make you in the right.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents on that one. Ive honestly never played full GK so I cant toss my experience in on it. Ive faught against a squad of GKT a few times, and they were pretty damn nasty. I think with 3 LR your either going to seriously hurt someone, or get your face smashed. Its pretty much that cut and dry. Good luck in the tourny though

The OP also asked why people thought it was tactically unsound, he didn't ask how to play with such a list, or what models he should bring, he asked specifically if it is tactically unsound.

ductvader wrote:Anyone think its tactically unsound to have half of my army be 3 models?

The reason I'm so opposed to the choice is precisely because you're either going to win big against a list that has no antitank; though I'd hazard to say that a list that doesn't have a means to deal with AV14 shouldn't be at a tourney anyway; or it's going to auto lose or play for a very boring draw against a list that is built to win. Even an average marine list at 1,500 points is likely to have a Tac squad wit Meltas and an MM dreadnought or two. Against a guy who brought even an unoptimized Vulkan list, or termicide, or Blood Angels, or even half assed maximum overdrive this list is going to be in a world of hurt on the MEQ side. Kan walls and rolla BW's will eat this thing alive, horde will just swarm them to death. Mech and semi-mech guard won't even have to try assuming they brought a squad or two with melta and some decent artillery. Crons can glance to death while taking no casualties or have the Deciever come over to say hello, that or a monolith partical whip that has almost no way to miss a LR. Eldar have lock councils, fire dragons, and lances. DE have lance and destructor spam, along with haywire grenades, and somebody could even manage to get a Talos into close combat and ruin an LR's day. T6 nids with cover won't care about the lascannons, the little bugs won't fear only 1 source of anti-horde and few templates, and warriors may have minor issues, you do shut down zoans with the hood 50% of the time though so you could stand a chance.

Honestly, most local metas will be mech or semi-mech these days and if somebody takes 3 LR to a competitive tournament they will be fighting up hill to win even once against foes of equal skill. At stores where the local meta is foot Marines then you'll win every game and people will call you TFG and you'll claim the prize. However you should be winning there anyway.

Well lets see, your advantages are, great assualt capability, old school wargear, and all AV 14.

The problems you will face is low model count, so those 30 slugga boys with their 120 attacks worst case scenero you will fail those 2+ armour saves eventully. The other problem with the movement to mechinzed army lists with 5th edition is that their are so many meltas running around for mosts lists. Everybody knows that they will see vehicles, and everybody has put things in their list to kill that armour, so you will run into melta/lances, and your entire game may be decided by 2 or three dice rolls regardless on how well you play the list.

I'm pretty sure I stated that Tri-Raider lists are sub par, and that pure GK are not competitive. I've had luck with them, but that's just me. I've also stated that winning with a pure GK list is harder to do, and therefore feels to me to be a more exciting list to play.

Not sure why anyone would assume I stated otherwise.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:I'm pretty sure I stated that Tri-Raider lists are sub par, and that pure GK are not competitive. I've had luck with them, but that's just me. I've also stated that winning with a pure GK list is harder to do, and therefore feels to me to be a more exciting list to play.

Not sure why anyone would assume I stated otherwise.

SJ

I didn't I even gave advice in my post and noted that you said it was hard to win with. As for winning with it being more exciting, I'd ask how it's more exciting? If you win it's either due to bad rolls by your opponent or him playing a really, really bad list. He could also hardly know the rules and have the tactical skill of an ant. I'd really be embarrassed to win with that list because of what it requires to win a game.

I saw at a 'ardboyz once... a guy playing a 3 raider GK list with a few IST in rhinos... against an ork horde with 200 or so boyz on the table.

this was the 'ardboyz where you could deploy your entire army at the 24" line in dawn of war if you got first turn... and the ork player got first turn. the grey knight player had a large plateau on his side, in the middle of his board. He made a ring of vehicles, with his troops in the middle, so they could see out the slits between vehicles, but couldn't be assaulted through it. The orks got close... but every time they did, he'd open the formation enough to assault the orks, or hit them with incinerators, or what have you... he ended up winning that game by a massacre victory, loosing almost no models. The ork player failed several charges through difficult terrain that game, sure, but damnit, It was the most epic game I have EVER seen, and will ever see. ~40 models, holding the line when outnumbered 5-1... AND WINNING????!?!?! I don't care if the ork player was a nub (he wasn't, he was pretty good) I don't care if the rolls were bad (he failed some key charge rolls up the plateau) and I don't care if his list was bad (it wasn't really... he rolled most of his opponents in test games)... you cannot tell me it wasn't a badass game.

Honersstodnt wrote:I saw at a 'ardboyz once... a guy playing a 3 raider GK list with a few IST in rhinos... against an ork horde with 200 or so boyz on the table.

this was the 'ardboyz where you could deploy your entire army at the 24" line in dawn of war if you got first turn... and the ork player got first turn. the grey knight player had a large plateau on his side, in the middle of his board. He made a ring of vehicles, with his troops in the middle, so they could see out the slits between vehicles, but couldn't be assaulted through it. The orks got close... but every time they did, he'd open the formation enough to assault the orks, or hit them with incinerators, or what have you... he ended up winning that game by a massacre victory, loosing almost no models. The ork player failed several charges through difficult terrain that game, sure, but damnit, It was the most epic game I have EVER seen, and will ever see. ~40 models, holding the line when outnumbered 5-1... AND WINNING????!?!?! I don't care if the ork player was a nub (he wasn't, he was pretty good) I don't care if the rolls were bad (he failed some key charge rolls up the plateau) and I don't care if his list was bad (it wasn't really... he rolled most of his opponents in test games)... you cannot tell me it wasn't a badass game.

So against a bad list (Horde orks are much better done by Kan Walls, and because hordes take too long to move and thus rarely win large tournies) that got bad rolls, in favorable terrain this list can win. You might also note that he had 1,000 more points to ork with over what the OP asked about. You also didn't mention any other games that this list played. I'd even go so far as to say that current guard could take a 1,000 point handicap and still beat that list. The key is crack the LR's with melta and win the game, most lists that are still stuck in 4e rules can do that, let alone things like the new BA.

In short one anecdote means nothing especially when we have only incomplete info. Next!

Honersstodnt wrote:I saw at a 'ardboyz once... a guy playing a 3 raider GK list with a few IST in rhinos... against an ork horde with 200 or so boyz on the table.

this was the 'ardboyz where you could deploy your entire army at the 24" line in dawn of war if you got first turn... and the ork player got first turn. the grey knight player had a large plateau on his side, in the middle of his board. He made a ring of vehicles, with his troops in the middle, so they could see out the slits between vehicles, but couldn't be assaulted through it. The orks got close... but every time they did, he'd open the formation enough to assault the orks, or hit them with incinerators, or what have you... he ended up winning that game by a massacre victory, loosing almost no models. The ork player failed several charges through difficult terrain that game, sure, but damnit, It was the most epic game I have EVER seen, and will ever see. ~40 models, holding the line when outnumbered 5-1... AND WINNING????!?!?! I don't care if the ork player was a nub (he wasn't, he was pretty good) I don't care if the rolls were bad (he failed some key charge rolls up the plateau) and I don't care if his list was bad (it wasn't really... he rolled most of his opponents in test games)... you cannot tell me it wasn't a badass game.

THAT'S cinematic. Please, say it was a duel between a Grand Master and Ghazghkull at the height of the battle...

I think their is too much emphasis on this guy playing in top rated tournaments vs playing at a store or with some friends. First of all I tip my hat to a guy that sticks it out and plays possibly the most challenging codex vs guys playing top tier codex's. As to the 3 LR's play it and don't get discouraged by it when it loses but think back what you could of done better in that game and take it to the next game. Always feel free with asking your opponent whats in what and to disclose his army before the game and during set up. Then its all about prioritizing the threats and taking it one step at a time.

As to the people saying that the Land Raiders will get crushed blah blah blah. I have seen more then a fair share of games where not even 20 + Dark Lances could bring a single one down. I have seen Land Raiders take melta after melta shot and yet the damn thing won't wreck or explode. Other games I have seen seen it taken down in one shot but those one shot kills are far and few vs the times the damn thing won't die.

Also before people start talking about how killer the popular list are and how your army can do jack vs it, I strongly suggest to those people to read the last year or so of major tournament winners. You will find many top tier list that not only didn't win but didn't place in the top 3. In the UK GT this year not one single leaf blower list or IG for that matter made it in the top 10. Yet, Necrons came in 5th and the list that has no chance due to all mech enviroment, Lash came in first. Adepticon this year showed that Leaf Blower can do well as did Space Wolves but when the entire tournament is saturated with those two armies making up over 70% of the players, it shouldnt come as a suprise. Then we come to So Cal Slaughter and a very tame and fluffy Nurgle Army takes home the bacon against all these so called top tier list where that nurgle army shouldnt have a chance in hell according to these forums.

have you looked at the reedeemer in apocolipse 2,
TL psycannons will take out any zoanthrope problems,
ten PAGK at I10 will ruin anyones day,
and 2, no invun, AP3 flamestorm templates, verry nice

yes its 270 points but id say its worth it

1) No matter what evidence you bring to support the use of multiple LRs people will ignore this & tell you these types of lists are non competitive.
2) Fact - Its well proven LRs are one of the most durable tanks in 5e. Their main weakness is melta but most units that have meltas have to first move into 1/2 range for them to be effective.
3) I think most of the arguments against multiple LRs being effective is that it requires strong tactics to make the army properly function. People just tend to think they can ride up in their Chimeroohs & rhinos uncontested and then destroy the landraiders. Against a good player it will never be that easy. Versus 3 or more landraiders you should be able to kill one fairly easy but that will then leave some of your army exposed for a counter strike.

End of the day it's not worth discussing with people that are close minded. Personally I think the 3x LR GK army has some real merit.

G

A few posts ago someone mentioned that maybe, just maybe, the OP isn't looking to roll through tournaments with this list. Maybe he's looking for a decent, but not hyper-competitive list.

If so, DON"T build a Tri-Raider list. If you're just playing friendly games, people aren't going to like it, for pretty much the opposite reason that people are arguing against using it competitively.

Yeah, Raiders die to lances as if they were Chimeras, and melta as if they were...well, tanks. Yeah, that handicaps them at 'Ard Boyz or whatever, when people know they'll see lots of tanks and prepare accordingly. In friendly games, though, where 'friendly' is defined as 'purposely using non-optimized lists,' people won't be packing enough anti-tank to deal with you. You'll roll them over and over, they'll get frustrated and nobody will have a good time.

Of course, maybe you only play games with people who like to make the most competitive lists possible. In that case, run the Tri-Raider. It should do reasonably well, it's fairly easy to play and it should help your friends build their lists with proper amounts of anti-tank.

Three land raider lists are fun, but don't expect to win a lot of games with them.

I've never run 3 LR GK lists but I've done it with Deathwing, a Berzerker list and a Noise Marine list. They all were fun and had the potential to stifle some opponents but usually you suffer against lists with a lot of ranged AT. I'd say play the list and enjoy it.

I always got a kick out of seeing peoples faces when I'd pull out three land raiders and a couple dreads in a 1850 point list.

This is a post to this thread in general, take the you's to mean you in this thread.

You do know you can play a friendly game without purposefully taking gak units right? Even at my lace where we go from playing themed lists to random battles where neither side knows so much as what army is being used you can take the models that fit your theme and are effective on the table. If something is deemed unfun, we don't play it again until it's house tourney time and then the gloves come back off. This tri-raider list will either roll or get rolled depending on your foes list composition and lucky dice, it is not fun to play against and is fun to play when you win and frustrating when you lose. It is neither top tier competitive nor hard but fun to play and play against. I find it a terrible list for these reasons.

Okay...come back and check my inbox and woahdang...flames are flying everwhere.

GK are very competitive. This however, is not the point I wish to argue.

Anything that comes close enough to get within melta range of a Grey Knight LR will be eaten by the Knights.

If the game is objective based...3 LRs can do that. If the game is Capture and Control based...you just try and take an objective from them...haha...KP?...I have 7 KP....getting more than the other guy isn't too difficult.

i am never looking to roll over my opponents...power playing just isn't in my blood. And, I often feel that when you power play you can be easily interrupted. Thus I am trying the way of the water warrior for the first time. This is not something I would ever take in a friendly game. My friendly games like to focus on Inquisitors.

And as for facing 200 orks...bring em on...I have been outnumbered 6 to 1 against orks and not had a problem.

I thank all those who have defended me in my choice to play GK. We take a lot of crap from the aforementioned "higher tier" (psh) armies...

I have seen posts that 2 squads of PAGK and a squad of TAGK works well...I personally feel that the loss of a scoring unit at these points isn't worth it...any thoughts?

ductvader wrote:Okay...come back and check my inbox and woahdang...flames are flying everwhere.

GK are very competitive. This however, is not the point I wish to argue.

Anything that comes close enough to get within melta range of a Grey Knight LR will be eaten by the Knights.

If the game is objective based...3 LRs can do that. If the game is Capture and Control based...you just try and take an objective from them...haha...KP?...I have 7 KP....getting more than the other guy isn't too difficult.

The issue I have with this is that many lists can afford to lose the points to crack your shell. Guard will pay 155 points for the three melta vets in a Chimera and odds are if the guard players knows hat he's doing he can keep it out of LOS long enough to get in close enough to fire meltas and have enough ranged power to make you pop smoke before those meltas can get there. Then what, you eat the Chimera and either have to send another group into them to finish them off or you eat melta shots and they make their points back even more by meltaing and rapid firing your GK.

Objectives, you can only hold three and your ranged output scares nobody. Who's afraid of 6 TL lascannons and TL Heavy Bolters these days? Things like suicide vets, Vulkan speeders, termicide and the like all force far more challenges than those weapons do. Also your knights can be tar pitted by things like blob guard. They will die eventually, but to say you hold objectives better than they do is absurd. KP, they don't care if you eat 10 of their KP if they table you and thanks to your short turns due to low model count they will get the turns to ruin your day.

The people defending such lists seem to forget that you can be skilled and play a powerful list designed to win tourneys. You assume idiot foes, unearthly luck, or overstate your own genius. Remember, your list is three shots away from losing half of its point at any given time.

Hm...someone just doesn't like to open their mind to possibilities...

Good Sir...you are contributing little to nothing to this conversation...

AV14 is not as easy to "pop" as people think...I have had single LRs survive more than a dozen close range melta shots...all of your statements thus far are situational.

Okay Math Hamer time then:

3 BS4 Meltas within 6" because you need to park your can on an objective and stay there to win games. I will show results with and without smoke.

3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.44 glances (smoke), 0.72 meaningful results (weapon destroyed, immobilized, or wrecked), of these there is a 0.12 chance of killing your tank outright

3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.17 penetrations, 0.28 glances, 1.12 meaningful results (see above but add explodes), of these there is a 0.61 chance of killing your tank outright

So as we can see there is a good chance that a single round of meltas will do serious damage to your expensive model and if the Chimera parks in a good spot an immobilization will mean you can no longer fire at it.

2 BS4 TL meltas.

2 attacks, 1.77 hits, 1.28 glances (smoke), 0.64 meaningful results, of these there is a 0.11 chance of killing your tank outright

2 attacks, 1.77 hits, 1.04 penetrations, 0.25 glances (smoke), 0.99 meaningful results, of these there is a 0.56 chance of killing your tank outright

Not as good and on a more costly squad, but it still stands to do damage.

Remember just because it can survive many shots doesn't mean it will.

As for opening my mind to ideas, I've played with and against LR's and while I won't argue that they have merit in lists a list made of them is a boorish one trick pony. I would posit that it is you that add little to your own thread because you refuse to see the answers to your question.

It is egotistical to assume that your answer is "the answer".

Does anyone else have input on tactica?

ductvader wrote:It is egotistical to assume that your answer is "the answer".

Does anyone else have input on tactica?

Funny, I'm not the only person saying this and no amount of stuffing fingers in your ears and wishing me away will change the fact that I have numbers and you have anecdotes.

If I knew how to use Vassal 40k better I would challenge you to a game Dash style and show you how easy your list is to beat. I could even go so far as to show exactly how the odds played out to show what factor luck plays into the batle.

As a guard player, i would not use meltas, screw that, geting my troops that close is just pointless, save the ponits for plasma guns

For taking out AV14 the AdMech gave us Vanquishers
[Range 72": ST 8: AP 2: Heavy 1, but the best thing of all is its 2D6 for armour penetration]

Why is it that every thing has to be Mathhammered? To be honist Mathhammer is pointless. 70% of the time it comes down to how you play not how the dice fall.

As for the 3 Land Raiders its not a bad list, it would catch afew players off guard with that much AV 14 facing tham. And that many TL Lascannons should never be scofted at.

Ribon Fox wrote:As a guard player, i would not use meltas, screw that, geting my troops that close is just pointless, save the ponits for plasma guns

For taking out AV14 the AdMech gave us Vanquishers
[Range 72": ST 8: AP 2: Heavy 1, but the best thing of all is its 2D6 for armour penetration]

Why is it that every thing has to be Mathhammered? To be honist Mathhammer is pointless. 70% of the time it comes down to how you play not how the dice fall.

As for the 3 Land Raiders its not a bad list, it would catch afew players off guard with that much AV 14 facing tham. And that many TL Lascannons should never be scofted at.

You forget shrouding, LOS issues, and the fact that the Vanquisher is worthless.

You then again you also seem to think that 6 TL lascannons are scary to guard so that explains you position.

I choose you...Blastoise!
Time to douse the flames.

Heres how it stands. A few player testimonies are stating 3 LR armies at 1500 are lots of fun to play with. Cool, I'm really happy for you and I'm gonna let you finish, but debating how fun the army may be isn't the point of this thread. We are talking about how solid the army list is.

Against a number of armies such as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Imperial guard and some marine armies the threat of 3 AV14 vehicles will not be that great as they can either be destroyed or nuetered with relative ease, with only 3 transports and 6 lascannons each imbolized and weapon destroyed result will hurt badly, this is in my mind the greatest flaw with the list, its a glass hammer*. I'm not saying that it is an 'auto-lose' against these armies but it is gonna be one hell of a struggle if they bring the appropriate weapons. Ofcourse on the flip side lots of armies will struggle to deal with 3 AV 14 tanks and in games like this I could imagine a lot of destruction being caused; mind you this does nothing to enchance any 3 LR armies ability to claim objectives, with only 3 troop units (for gk's anyway) you have very few units trying to accomplish lots of jobs at the same time.

My diagnosis: Indeed viable in a competetive setting, just pray you don't meet any armies that play 'paper' to your 'rock'.

*Perhaps a rubber hammer would be a more apt analogy. Rubber will be very durable to things like 'water' armies but will melt with little resistance in the face of 'fire' armies. Dude, THAT was my sexiest analogy yet!

Foldalot wrote:I choose you...Blastoise!
Time to douse the flames.

Heres how it stands. A few player testimonies are stating 3 LR armies at 1500 are lots of fun to play with. Cool, I'm really happy for you and I'm gonna let you finish, but debating how fun the army may be isn't the point of this thread. We are talking about how solid the army list is.

Against a number of armies such as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Imperial guard and some marine armies the threat of 3 AV14 vehicles will not be that great as they can either be destroyed or nuetered with relative ease, with only 3 transports and 6 lascannons each imbolized and weapon destroyed result will hurt badly, this is in my mind the greatest flaw with the list, its a glass hammer*. I'm not saying that it is an 'auto-lose' against these armies but it is gonna be one hell of a struggle if they bring the appropriate weapons. Ofcourse on the flip side lots of armies will struggle to deal with 3 AV 14 tanks and in games like this I could imagine a lot of destruction being caused; mind you this does nothing to enchance any 3 LR armies ability to claim objectives, with only 3 troop units (for gk's anyway) you have very few units trying to accomplish lots of jobs at the same time.

My diagnosis: Indeed viable in a competetive setting, just pray you don't meet any armies that play 'paper' to your 'rock'.

*Perhaps a rubber hammer would be a more apt analogy. Rubber will be very durable to things like 'water' armies but will melt with little resistance in the face of 'fire' armies. Dude, THAT was my sexiest analogy yet!

Yup, exactly what I said without the sexy numbers. xD

Lets hope you don't need a flame proof suit too.

Foldalot wrote:My diagnosis: Indeed viable in a competetive setting, just pray you don't meet any armies that play 'paper' to your 'rock'.

*Perhaps a rubber hammer would be a more apt analogy. Rubber will be very durable to things like 'water' armies but will melt with little resistance in the face of 'fire' armies. Dude, THAT was my sexiest analogy yet!

Very well put...and your analogy was thoroughly enjoyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ribon Fox wrote:Why is it that every thing has to be Mathhammered? To be honist Mathhammer is pointless. 70% of the time it comes down to how you play not how the dice fall.

As for the 3 Land Raiders its not a bad list, it would catch afew players off guard with that much AV 14 facing tham. And that many TL Lascannons should never be scofted at.

Also very good points...however I will be taking one LRC for lack of a third LR. (Not ideal I know)