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Now I play Grey Knights and have never been one for LR spam.

Seems contradictory I know...

But I am tempted to use 2 LRs and an LRC in an upcoming 1500 point tournament

Anyone think its tactically unsound to have half of my army be 3 models?

It makes me feel odd because I have never played this way.

just make sure you only take 3 squads of troops... you don't want anything outside your land raiders. A sample list that should do well:

HQ: GK BroCap w/ hood

Troops: 3x 7 man GK squads, incinerator, melta bombs on justicar

Heavy: 3 raiders (any variety) w/ smoke and extra armor

You think the hood is necessary at these points or no?

I'd definitely be an interesting list to play. It'd make all the opponents attacks under strength 8 useless.

I have the feeling that you'd probably either win pretty easily or get tabled fairly quickly, depending on how much anti-tank they bring.

Dark Eldar would eat you for breakfast. The upside would be if you face any DE players you'll have plenty of down time once they punch your army in the face.

The hood would help allot versus pyskers since it's the old school version and make it harder for Zoanthropes to devour your list.

Other good thing is nobody play DE...haha.

i've beaten dark eldar lists with a 3 raider GK list... but I used 3 regular raiders, no crusader. With the ability to fire 6 twin linked lascannons at 6 different targets, you can put down their raider spam pretty quickly.

Indeed....I end up taking the hood for lack of a better place to put points and the fact that it messes with zoanthropes...

I only have 2 LRs and a LRC...so right now that's my only option tankwise.


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Honersstodnt wrote:i've beaten dark eldar lists with a 3 raider GK list... but I used 3 regular raiders, no crusader. With the ability to fire 6 twin linked lascannons at 6 different targets, you can put down their raider spam pretty quickly.

I bet "old smoke" helps a ton with this list.

Honersstodnt wrote:i've beaten dark eldar lists with a 3 raider GK list... but I used 3 regular raiders, no crusader. With the ability to fire 6 twin linked lascannons at 6 different targets, you can put down their raider spam pretty quickly.

If the DE get the first turn you might not ever get a chance, if they have a nightmare doll, getting first turn will be even harder. And even if you take out the raiders, haywire grenades can ruin your day.

I'm not saying that DE would get an auto-win but it would be a hard match up.

You might want to see if you could squeeze a Vindicare assassin in. I'd take allot of heat but the ability to take out hidden powerklaws and the like might be game winning.

My Eldar army never goes out without two units of Fire Dragons.
This would mean two destroyed Landraiders. Ouch.

I'd hate to face bastion breacher shells with you'r list too.

This is actually the 1500pt GK list I run the most. What I've found is that against a player that is not ready to kill AV 14, this list with roll through them with little to no opposition. If your opponent is prepared, then you are in for a very tough game.

For objective games and tournaments, I recommend taking one of the three squads with two psycannons, equipping the BC with a psycannon, while leaving the remaining two squads with incinerators and melta bombs. This opens up options and makes your list more flexible when dealing with a prepared foe. I also recommend three Godhammers rather than two and a LRC. If you do want to take a LRC, fill it with GKT.

SJ

I think Eldar and Dark Eldar will do bad things to you easily off the get go.

I think other armies really depend on what they have for melta/multi-melta.

Orks couldn't care less - they either have deffrollas and a KFF, or swarms of STR10 DCCWs, or powerklaws, or some of all of it.

Two words that will destroy that list without even trying...Mech Guard

...and there are a ton of mech guard players right now... just saying

Heck, any competetive IG list will have a good chance of tableing a GK triple land raider list by turn two or three at 1500 points.

I wouldn't even think of running triple land raider at 1500 in the current mech/anti-mech meagame....almost everyone will have the tools to wreck it fast.

there is no national metagame... don't know what you guys are talking about. There are regional metagames, depending on where the OP plays. I fielded a list like this at a local tournament last year. won most of my games without loosing a single model... nobody had seen a list like this before, and they were unprepared.

and like it or not, this is the only way to field a competitive grey knights army... while it has its problems, its the only way to go. There are ways you can deal with most armies with it, but they rely on no small amount of luck, and faith in the emperor.

Competitive GK army that runs without allies at least.

I have never played such a list.

Keep in mind that GK smoke causes glances...and anything that gets close enough to assault a LR will get eaten by Grey Knights.


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Will playtest against a 1500 point leafblower tonight and then make more comments...

As a guard player, there is nothing I'd like to see more than half of someone's points tied up in 3 vehicles. Against any player who is even halfway decent at making lists, bringing that small of an ammount of armor is going to see flaming wrecks made unfortunately quickly, especially if you opponent has nothing better to shoot at (because its all in LRs).

That and LRs have crappy firepower, which means that without dakka, or any particular survivability, it's just a transport, and something makes me think that there might be a cheaper way to transport things. Meanwhile, you're taking points away from scoring units and damage-dealers and the like.

LR's are cool, but once you start losing them to death or glory meltaguns, it's going to turn sour, and once everybody at your FLGS knows that you're bringing that kind of list, you'll never win another game.

lol you say that now... have you ever faced a 3 raider GK list, ailaros? against someone who knows what their doing?

why the HELL would they loose a raider to a death or glory melta gun? thats dumb as hell. The first priority of anyone playing a 3 GK raider list is to identify and destroy all sources of melta weaponry and str10 weapons. Lascannons, while threatening, have like a 2.6% chance of destroying a land raider per shot. nothing significant. Once the GK player identifies which of your chimeras have melta weaponry in them, those are the first to get hit with lascannons. once your transports are destroyed, the GK will disembark, keeping land raiders between the rest of your army and themselves, blowing your melta gunners away. Then, they will get back into their raiders, having crippled your melta capability... and continue to faceroll across your army.

with 3 normal raiders, they can put out 6 lascannon shots per turn. at 1500 points, your probably going to have, at most, 3 chimeras full of melta vets. I'd say 2 turns of shooting from the raiders, they could either destroy or immoblize your 3 valuable chimeras... making them easy bait for the GK inside.

Don't EVER underestimate a land raider's firepower. It has the comparable firepower of a devastator squad of marines, for cheaper (I consider 3 TL weapons that can select 2 targets equal to 4 regular heavy weapons that cannot)

also factor in the raiders have old smoke... meaning you cannot penetrate them. you can only glance. throw in cheap extra armor, and your not stopping these land raiders any time soon.

Everyone always says a 3 raider GK list is doomed... don't say that until you play against someone who knows what their doing with it, and doesn't just blindly assault things.

Honersstodnt wrote:lol you say that now... have you ever faced a 3 raider GK list, ailaros? against someone who knows what their doing?

why the HELL would they loose a raider to a death or glory melta gun? thats dumb as hell. The first priority of anyone playing a 3 GK raider list is to identify and destroy all sources of melta weaponry and str10 weapons. Lascannons, while threatening, have like a 2.6% chance of destroying a land raider per shot. nothing significant. Once the GK player identifies which of your chimeras have melta weaponry in them, those are the first to get hit with lascannons. once your transports are destroyed, the GK will disembark, keeping land raiders between the rest of your army and themselves, blowing your melta gunners away. Then, they will get back into their raiders, having crippled your melta capability... and continue to faceroll across your army.

with 3 normal raiders, they can put out 6 lascannon shots per turn. at 1500 points, your probably going to have, at most, 3 chimeras full of melta vets. I'd say 2 turns of shooting from the raiders, they could either destroy or immoblize your 3 valuable chimeras... making them easy bait for the GK inside.

Don't EVER underestimate a land raider's firepower. It has the comparable firepower of a devastator squad of marines, for cheaper (I consider 3 TL weapons that can select 2 targets equal to 4 regular heavy weapons that cannot)

also factor in the raiders have old smoke... meaning you cannot penetrate them. you can only glance. throw in cheap extra armor, and your not stopping these land raiders any time soon.

Everyone always says a 3 raider GK list is doomed... don't say that until you play against someone who knows what their doing with it, and doesn't just blindly assault things.

The new Blood Angels would love this list. If they go first and they rush three rhinos up 18" before turning sideways and popping smoke, now you have to ram or go around and they're going to be tough to take down. Their Furioso (sp?) Dreadnoughts will also enjoy fighting you because even if you bring hidden fists, doubly so if they're running dual claws.

I'd hesitate to field a list with 3 LR's.
There are too many lists out there that can counter it,
like DE, Eldar (Fire Dragons), IG (melta Vets in Chimeras or Valkyries), or CSM (deep striking Obliterators, CSM with meltas).

Honer, you are so wrong...lol

My 1500 mech guard has 4 Chimeras screened by Demolishers, plus 2 Vends for cover fire. The LRs will not touch my chimeras (LOS blocked) until my Demolishers and Vends have made short work of LRs. That will take about 2-3 turns, thanks to smoke. Then the contents will be easy pickings. As you can see, I don't run "Leafblower"; I run a Mech Guard will good ol real tanks as screening units/linebreakers....and I laugh everytime a see a LR against me....

Yes, I have taken on Triple LR lists many times....and it always ends up with wrecked LRs and dead contents.....always. It is even worse when I run my Mech Eldar, since BLs and Fire Dragons both make a mockerey of AV 14.

In short, since everyone is running mech, everyone is also geared to destroy mech. By putting that many points in to 3 tanks at 1500, you start the game with one hand tied behind your back. Sure, you can beat an unprepared player with 3x LR at 1500, but against a good player with a solid list that is built to handle 5th ed mech lists, things will just go badly for someone who puts 1/2 their points into 3 vehicles in the current meta game.

all the units your mentioning that counter 3 land raiders depend on you getting within 24" of them to fire demolishers, or your relying on vendettas to shoot them down. Against a 1500 mech guard list, i'm guessing you probably field what, 2-3 demolishers, 2 vendettas, and 4 chimeras full of troops? Priority target are the vendettas... stay the crap away from the demolishers. the raiders are just as effective at 48". Pop the vendettas at range, preferably by using an all-reserve tactic, come onto the board edge shooting lascannons at them. With the vendettas down, your options are to sit back and wait for me to come to you, which I won't do, because I outrange you, or drive up to me... which again, I can drive away, or try to get side armor shots on your demolishers. Once I put down a demolisher or two with TL lascannon fire (or blow off a weapon, just as good) I can go in for the kill with my troops. GK assaulting a chimera will almost guarantee it being popped, with all their str6 attacks on the charge. Hopefully, youd be surrounded, and all die. Otherwise, you will emergency disembark (i'll cover the back hatch).

If I fail to pop enough demolishers, I still won't get close to you... i'll spread out to the objectives, and force you to either sit on one objective and loose, or break your phalanx of demolishers / chimeras, in which case SOME of my raiders will have rear/side armor shots on you, and I will take advantage of that. if you play defensively, and don't come to me, but sit on objectives, I'm perfectly content to sit back, wait till the last turn, and rush in for the draw... The point is, your playing my game. You don't have the ranged firepower to stand up to me, your going to need to get in close, and therein lies the game.

You say you've played triple raider lists before... how many of them played full-slow, and just charged you? Thats not the way to go... with a 3 raider list, you either cause very few casualties the first few turns, and then tie the game, or when your opponent gets sick of exchanging long range fire with unkillable behemoths, and tries to get in close, you exploit it.

Now, I haven't played against the new blood angels with a GK raider list yet... but it would seem the key to winning against them would be to include a grandmaster in your army. Use his intiative 5 to wipe out the sanguinary priest, then at initative 4 your angels wouldn't have the benefit of furious charge. after that charge, of course your opponent would have an opportunity to frag your raiders with melta fire, but that would mean leaving your ground troops alone, who would next turn tear through the angel squad who popped the raider. Furiosos would be a target that would need to be destroyed before you move your raiders anywhere NEAR his angels, however.

DE and Eldar lances aren't THAT much of an advantage over raiders... in my experience, eldar players put far too much confidence in them. a BS3 lance shot has a 4.5% chance to kill a land raider. a BS4 lance shot has a 7% chance. If you roll slightly below average, and take a shitton of lances (which means the rest of your army will be sub-par) then your in trouble. A TLLC from a raider has a 15% chance of immobilizing or killing a wave serpent full of fire dragons. If you have more than 2 (at most) units of fire dragons in serpents at 1500 points your going to be vastly outnumbered by horde armies, and your list isn't tournament worthy... so there is a fairly good chance you won't be doing that.

I'm not saying a 3 raider list is a guaranteed win... but its not a dead loss either. Unless your opponent is railgun heavy tau (in which case you need to just go balls deep, rush him, and pray your smoke holds long enough to get to him), there are tactics you can use to leverage the game in your favor. Even against the fabled dark eldar dark lance spam lists... they normally field lances on raiders.. a single TLLC from a land raider has a about a 40% chance of killing a raider. and you can fire at 6 individual targets.... its not hopeless.

This is the only way to field a pure grey knight army with ANY CHANCE of winning against other armies. You need to play conservatively, and often settle for a draw. But its never a guaranteed loss.

Honersstodnt wrote:all the units your mentioning that counter 3 land raiders depend on you getting within 24" of them to fire demolishers, or your relying on vendettas to shoot them down. Against a 1500 mech guard list, i'm guessing you probably field what, 2-3 demolishers, 2 vendettas, and 4 chimeras full of troops? Priority target are the vendettas... stay the crap away from the demolishers. the raiders are just as effective at 48". Pop the vendettas at range, preferably by using an all-reserve tactic, come onto the board edge shooting lascannons at them. With the vendettas down, your options are to sit back and wait for me to come to you, which I won't do, because I outrange you, or drive up to me... which again, I can drive away, or try to get side armor shots on your demolishers. Once I put down a demolisher or two with TL lascannon fire (or blow off a weapon, just as good) I can go in for the kill with my troops. GK assaulting a chimera will almost guarantee it being popped, with all their str6 attacks on the charge. Hopefully, youd be surrounded, and all die. Otherwise, you will emergency disembark (i'll cover the back hatch).

If I fail to pop enough demolishers, I still won't get close to you... i'll spread out to the objectives, and force you to either sit on one objective and loose, or break your phalanx of demolishers / chimeras, in which case SOME of my raiders will have rear/side armor shots on you, and I will take advantage of that. if you play defensively, and don't come to me, but sit on objectives, I'm perfectly content to sit back, wait till the last turn, and rush in for the draw... The point is, your playing my game. You don't have the ranged firepower to stand up to me, your going to need to get in close, and therein lies the game.

You say you've played triple raider lists before... how many of them played full-slow, and just charged you? Thats not the way to go... with a 3 raider list, you either cause very few casualties the first few turns, and then tie the game, or when your opponent gets sick of exchanging long range fire with unkillable behemoths, and tries to get in close, you exploit it.

Now, I haven't played against the new blood angels with a GK raider list yet... but it would seem the key to winning against them would be to include a grandmaster in your army. Use his intiative 5 to wipe out the sanguinary priest, then at initative 4 your angels wouldn't have the benefit of furious charge. after that charge, of course your opponent would have an opportunity to frag your raiders with melta fire, but that would mean leaving your ground troops alone, who would next turn tear through the angel squad who popped the raider. Furiosos would be a target that would need to be destroyed before you move your raiders anywhere NEAR his angels, however.

DE and Eldar lances aren't THAT much of an advantage over raiders... in my experience, eldar players put far too much confidence in them. a BS3 lance shot has a 4.5% chance to kill a land raider. a BS4 lance shot has a 7% chance. If you roll slightly below average, and take a shitton of lances (which means the rest of your army will be sub-par) then your in trouble. A TLLC from a raider has a 15% chance of immobilizing or killing a wave serpent full of fire dragons. If you have more than 2 (at most) units of fire dragons in serpents at 1500 points your going to be vastly outnumbered by horde armies, and your list isn't tournament worthy... so there is a fairly good chance you won't be doing that.

I'm not saying a 3 raider list is a guaranteed win... but its not a dead loss either. Unless your opponent is railgun heavy tau (in which case you need to just go balls deep, rush him, and pray your smoke holds long enough to get to him), there are tactics you can use to leverage the game in your favor. Even against the fabled dark eldar dark lance spam lists... they normally field lances on raiders.. a single TLLC from a land raider has a about a 40% chance of killing a raider. and you can fire at 6 individual targets.... its not hopeless.

This is the only way to field a pure grey knight army with ANY CHANCE of winning against other armies. You need to play conservatively, and often settle for a draw. But its never a guaranteed loss.

So you're relying on six TL lascannons to crack vehicles and win you the game. Each land raider will get 1.78 hits, for 0.89 pens and 0.30 glances versus AV 12, halve those for cover and smoke being popped. The pens have a 33% chance of leaving a Chimera still moving so out of cover that's about a 60% chance per shot chance to stop it for a turn, less if you ignore stuns. If they pop smoke you have about a 33% chance per LR to effect a Chimera. You do better against Rhinos but not by too much.

Meanwhile your enemy, if they deploy up as far as they can can drop meltas on you on their first turn with Valks/Vendettas. Fast skimmers and jet bikes can be in your face turn 2. First turn charge Vulkan SM can launch melta scouts with melta bombs at you first turn. There are plenty of ways to crack LR's that you're trying to wave away. You can try to sit back, but there are many ways to get to you. This even ignores things like the three attacks from Manticores and you can't hide from them.

As for your ideas about fighting Blood Angels and taking out Sanguinary Priests, I would counter that by saying that you keep the Priests in the Rhino and drive that up behind the troops, you can measure from the vehicle hull so as long as you're with 6" of where you're assaulting BA are laughing at you. You also ignore the 115 point assault drop meltas that only scatter 6". You claim that a Furiouso Dreadnought will die, but they can pod in and AV13 vs. Lascannons isn't a game you want to rely on. You're assuming that when you play everything will go your way and that isn't the way to do things.

Also, scoring draws is a great way to get docked sportsmanship and you'll never come close to the top prize that way.

........ I dont know why you are arguing this with me.

FACT: The OP said he plays a grey knight army.

FACT: The best grey knight armies are 3 land raider grey knight armies.

FACT: Even with 3 land raiders, you will still loose often

I don't recall ever saying the list was invincible... I was simply trying to give advise on how it might be best played. As for all your first turn shenanigoats... Just hold your entire army in reserve. Boom, first turn lame cheese is reduced. There are things you can do with a 3 raider GK list to try to win the game. Your never guaranteed a loss. Its just an uphill battle, against every army out there. There is no better option for fielding a pure grey knights army, and you cannot dispute that. The only other option GK have is 3 dreads...

I make a post, detailing strategies to try to use a sub-par army to its fullest, and of course, you can counter with all the cocknockery in the world (I dont care what you say, leaving a sanguinary priest in a transport so he can give his aura to others is a dick move not in line with fluff, and anyone who does it should be shot, regardless of how good it is).... its a bad list. But, when you win, I hope you feel good about it. Its like kicking a baby with downs syndrome in the back of the head, while urinating on his mother, who also suffers from downs syndrome. Yea, your a winner. congrats. Have a cookie.

Honersstodnt wrote:........ I dont know why you are arguing this with me.

FACT: The OP said he plays a grey knight army.

FACT: The best grey knight armies are 3 land raider grey knight armies.

FACT: Even with 3 land raiders, you will still loose often

I don't recall ever saying the list was invincible... I was simply trying to give advise on how it might be best played. As for all your first turn shenanigoats... Just hold your entire army in reserve. Boom, first turn lame cheese is reduced. There are things you can do with a 3 raider GK list to try to win the game. Your never guaranteed a loss. Its just an uphill battle, against every army out there. There is no better option for fielding a pure grey knights army, and you cannot dispute that. The only other option GK have is 3 dreads...

I make a post, detailing strategies to try to use a sub-par army to its fullest, and of course, you can counter with all the cocknockery in the world (I dont care what you say, leaving a sanguinary priest in a transport so he can give his aura to others is a dick move not in line with fluff, and anyone who does it should be shot, regardless of how good it is).... its a bad list. But, when you win, I hope you feel good about it. Its like kicking a baby with downs syndrome in the back of the head, while urinating on his mother, who also suffers from downs syndrome. Yea, your a winner. congrats. Have a cookie.

If you hold your army in reserve then it gets even worse. Those melta transports can then move up and blow apart your forces as they drive on piecemeal. As far as debating you, you're the only one saying that this idea even has a chance and everybody else is saying it doesn't have a hope in hell. You'd have to be the baby that you described in your overly graphic insult to ever even try to win a tourney with a pure GK army.

As for my tactics, if I'm at a tournament I'm playing to crush your list as fast as I can and win. That isn't even the worst thing that can be done, you offer no counter to being shot away by Tau with marker lights and then mopped up by JSJ suits. If you can't face a nasty list at a tourney, don't play.

I'd also like it if you would follow the site rules. I'd glad engage in a flame war elsewhere, but this isn't the time or place.

EDIT: I reported you for violation of rule 1. Have a nice day.

Norade wrote:

You'd have to be the baby that you described in your overly graphic insult to ever even try to win a tourney with a pure GK army.

EDIT: I reported you for violation of rule 1. Have a nice day.

yes, because we all know playing an army you like makes you a baby God forbid we don't all jump ship to the newest codex that comes out. *GASP* some of us may play armies we actually enjoy.... for reasons... OTHER than simply beating people upside the face.

Tournaments around me, at least, usually have a good mix of people show up, with a good variety of lists, ranging from ultra-competitive, to ultra-non-competitive (the one of each necron unit list made a few appearances around here, actually won a tournament)

Maybe I should be thankful I can game in an environment where what list you bring doesn't matter as much as how well you play it. Ah well. And yes, I applaud you on reporting me for violating a rule We all know, it is the only valid way to end arguments.

Honersstodnt wrote:. But, when you win, I hope you feel good about it. Its like kicking a baby with downs syndrome in the back of the head, while urinating on his mother, who also suffers from downs syndrome. Yea, your a winner. congrats. Have a cookie.

Can I put that in a sig?

I thought it was funny too, but I wouldn't sig it, after seeing how some people react to my brand of... humor.

Honersstodnt wrote:

Norade wrote:

You'd have to be the baby that you described in your overly graphic insult to ever even try to win a tourney with a pure GK army.

EDIT: I reported you for violation of rule 1. Have a nice day.

yes, because we all know playing an army you like makes you a baby God forbid we don't all jump ship to the newest codex that comes out. *GASP* some of us may play armies we actually enjoy.... for reasons... OTHER than simply beating people upside the face.

Tournaments around me, at least, usually have a good mix of people show up, with a good variety of lists, ranging from ultra-competitive, to ultra-non-competitive (the one of each necron unit list made a few appearances around here, actually won a tournament)

Maybe I should be thankful I can game in an environment where what list you bring doesn't matter as much as how well you play it. Ah well. And yes, I applaud you on reporting me for violating a rule We all know, it is the only valid way to end arguments.

I would like to note that you provided no counter to my arguments and only continue to try and bait me into a flame war. Do you have some counter to add that would make it so the most commonly played armies won't stomp a 3 land raider GK list? So far all you've done is assumed 6 TL LC's will have enough punch to stop a competitive list from wading through and ruining your day. You also assume that you will have the ability to sit back and that purposefully playing for a draw is fun for anybody buy yourself. I'd much rather face a good list and lose than face a guy who stalls and plays for the draw all game long, and even so you're still going to lose more than you win.

For the record, I don't play BA, I proxy many different builds and have about a 50/50 record with every army out there. Flaming me for pointing out how a list can stomp the idea you posted is not what this forum is for.

So put up a counter point, or concede.

Sorry mate, Gwar! is the only troll aloud on this forum. May your banning be swift and the modquistion ruthless.