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jbunny wrote:

ArmyC wrote:After a lot of input from various sources.....

Turbo Boost - (add) Units that assault units that turbo boosted must reroll successful to hit rolls in CC.

Bikes and Jump infantry - Gain Hit and Run during CC vs. infantry units and Monstrous Creatures

Bonesinger - (same stats as a Warlock) Waygate - Place one waygate marker in the deployment zone or within 6" of an infiltrated friendly unit after the deployment phase. Friendly infantry, jetbike, jump infantry, and monstrous creatures may enter from reserves within 2" of this marker. Units may assault the turn they enter through a waygate. Also, units may exit the table and be placed into reserve during the movement phase through a waygate, the same as entering a building. If the bonesinger is not in CC and not inside a building or transport, during the movement phase, the bonesinger may forfiet movement, shooting and assault to create a 2nd waygate within 6" of his current location. No more than 2 waygates may be on the table at one time. Waygates are treated as buildings with AV 12 and energy fields.

Howling Banshee Exarch - Assault Drill: This unit may exit a transport that traveled at combat or cruising speed along the path the transport traveled during the movement phase. Treat any terrain that is not open terrain as dangerous terrain. The unit may assault in the assault phase. Cost 25.

Autarch - Master Strategist - May designate one unit placed in reserve to gain the outflank rule, or may grant the scout or infiltrate USR to one deployed unit. Can't use it on monstrous creatures.

Phoenix Lords - Battle Fate - 4+ Invulnerable Save, and count 1 unit from its aspect as troops, and also, this model confers its Exarch Powers to any unit from its aspect that it joins.

Farseer – Runes of Witnessing +25 - When taking a psychic test roll 3d6. If the resulting roll passes the test, then the ability cannot be negated by opposing abilities. If not, remove the highest dice and take the result.

Defender Guardians – Defensive grenades +1 and 0-1 weapon platform per 10 guardians.

Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault - may reroll deep strike scatter. Warp Generator move is 3d6 pick 2.

Falcon - Dedicated Transport Option

Shining Spears – Jetbike Master - This unit may make range attacks in CC, in place of normal CC attacks.

Turbo boosting is way too powerful. I see your point.

Bonesinger, way too power and easily abused. Place on bike, Turbo boost turn one, turn 2 create poral in their lines, then every close combat unit comes in and assualts and has no fear of being shot at before they get into close combat. WAY TO POWERFUL. Ok so make it 2 waygates in the deployment phase. Place them in deploymnet zone or withing 6" of an infiltrated unit. No ability to create waygates. Units can leave the table at one gate (going into reserves) and reenter (from reserves) at the other.

Banshee Assaut Drill - Don't like it. not being able to assualt is the one thing that helps to keep them in check. And what keeps Assault Terminators in check?

Autarch - no problem with giving outflank but not scout. What about Infiltrate, and why not it is only one unit?

Farseers - Too powerful Average on 3d6 is 10, so on average they pass and no one can stop them. What % of success do you think is correct?

Falcon Spam is not balanced The high cost of a kitted out Falcon will keep it in check.

Shining Spears - Maybe with automatic Hit and Run, they can survive a little, but you have to weigh the damage they do against the fact that they die so easy afterward.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The waygates are a nice fluffy way to allow Eldar the same tactical advantages that Drop Pods, Valkyries, Monoliths, Deep Strike, summoned deamons and tunnels allow other races.

I just want more tactical options.

I can see how 30 assaulting Howling Banshees is cause for alarm. Perhaps the Assault Drill ability can go on Jan Zair the HB PL. So it only goes to one unit. Still sucks though, compared to all the melee stuff out there and how Eldar is totally gimped in melee.

500 pts Keeps assault Termies in check, and the fact that thier transport cannot move 24 and get a rerollable save.

No problem with giving a unit infiltrate, but not scout. esp if combined with the orginial Bonesinger idea.

Personally i don't think any power should be able to be cast and there is nothing your opponent can do about it, provided he brought the correct models.

ArmyC wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
The waygates are a nice fluffy way to allow Eldar the same tactical advantages that Drop Pods, Valkyries, Monoliths, Deep Strike, summoned deamons and tunnels allow other races.

I just want more tactical options.

I can see how 30 assaulting Howling Banshees is cause for alarm. Perhaps the Assault Drill ability can go on Jan Zair the HB PL. So it only goes to one unit. Still sucks though, compared to all the melee stuff out there and how Eldar is totally gimped in melee.

I seem to remember an official scenario from GW back in 2002 or 2003 where a (specifically) Ulthwé army would start play with a Seer Council (proper council with 3 to 5 Farseers and 0 to inf Warlocks) and an optional transport. In one phase, instead of shooting I think, they would open a psychic gate to the warp and the army would move in (fleet of foot, which would translate to run today) through that. The seer council was one beast of a survivor while several Eldar troops are not.
The difference would be that the seer council acts as the warp gate.

One thing I've always thought that would give Eldar some counter assault ability in a non-mechanized fashion would be to give Striking Scorpions the ability to "hide" in a terrain feature much like Ymgarl Stealers. Perhaps you have to make a reserve roll for them and they act as having arrived via deep strike but do not scatter and can assault in the assault phase on the turn they arrive.

So while hiding they cannot be attacked? That might work. Kinda cool.

Eldar do need a new Codex soon IMO. All the upgrades mentioned seem good to me. Bring on the new 'Dex!!!!

eNvY wrote:One thing I've always thought that would give Eldar some counter assault ability in a non-mechanized fashion would be to give Striking Scorpions the ability to "hide" in a terrain feature much like Ymgarl Stealers. Perhaps you have to make a reserve roll for them and they act as having arrived via deep strike but do not scatter and can assault in the assault phase on the turn they arrive.

There are rules for this on an Apoc Datasheet on the GW website. It is the Shadow Host War Walker squadron IIRC. They are not deployed, and they are not in strategic reserve. Instead, you can place command vehicle anywhere 12" away from enemy units. Then you place the other WW squadrons within 6" of the command vehicle. On the turn they come in, they get double shots. Pretty devastating.

I think it is a great connection to the Striking Scorpians. Instead of double shots, they gain pathfinder and can assault. I don't think you need to deepstrike them at all.

I like this rule for the Exarch for 25 point, or for Karandas, for free.

That rule, along with Howling Banshees assaulting out of Wave Serpents, I think we are getting somewhere.

You can't say this makes these CC units OP. Their S and T stats limit the damage they can do. I just want strategic options that allow me to compete with deep striking land raiders, and the like from recent codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:I seem to remember an official scenario from GW back in 2002 or 2003 where a (specifically) Ulthwé army would start play with a Seer Council (proper council with 3 to 5 Farseers and 0 to inf Warlocks) and an optional transport. In one phase, instead of shooting I think, they would open a psychic gate to the warp and the army would move in (fleet of foot, which would translate to run today) through that. The seer council was one beast of a survivor while several Eldar troops are not.
The difference would be that the seer council acts as the warp gate.

It is an Apocalypse datasheet. It is the Ulthwe' Strike Force. The Farseer has a gate that is placed next to him on the turn that the strike force becomes available. It is impassible terrain, does not block LOS, and cannot be removed. Units from the strike force treat the gate as a friendly table edge.

This could be adapted to normal games. Gate is Farseer wargear, costs 25 points, and 2 units may enter from reserves through it. Maybe allow unlimited use, but roll a d6 for each unit, and on a 1 use the deepstrike mishap table for the unit.

Regarding Guardians (it's a pet nail in the eye for me, and has been for more than a decade).
They just do not make sense. It's the only race with a clearly negative birth rate, it's got characters and whole armies based on the preservation and survival of the race, and they go to extremes punishing enemies who kill them off. And they've got basic 8 point infantry with one of the worse standard weapons if you figure "survival" into it. They should've lost enough people by now to replace the catapults with Lasblasters or even heavier, better, standard weapons.

Generally, let's sell Guardians as squads!

Defender Guardian Squad 80 pts
Each Defender Guardian Squad consist of 10 Guardians armed with Shuriken Catapults with the current upgrade options. Each squad operates as it's own unit. Only two squads per force organization slot.

Storm Guardian Squad 80 pts
Each Storm Guardian Squad consist of 10 Guardians armed with Shuriken Pistols and a close combat weapon. Each squad operates as it's own unit. Only two squads per force organization slot.

Since people are buying them for their weapons upgrades, well... allow them to take more minned squads and have the squads actually used! Other than that, it would be neat giving them wargear so that they justify 100pts squads (+2 per model)

I like the Falcons can shoot more than just one weapon idea above at the end of his thread. People are mobbing up on Prisms nowadays since 5th movement/firing rules and our once feared Falcon is a thing of the past.

Vypers need that Crystal Matrix back because they just suck now without it. Any competative list would scoff the Vyper nowadays in favor of a warwalker. Twice the guns, less cost.

Guardians did not get the BUY MORE FIGS upgrade, like ork boyz and guardsmen and space wolf grey hunters... Need to be cheaper. Face it, they SUCK. I pay 8 points for something weak, underarmored, and has no range?? While IG pays 5 for something just as underarmored, just as weak, but with 24".

Guardians in my experience never get off more than one volley with their pathetic range before they get wiped. Why do they cost so much for such a gak unit?

-----------

Actually I think a lot more deep-striking and flanking possibilities would put them back in the game. Right now we have hawks with weak guns, walkers and rangers flanking, and expensive upgraded scorpions... um.... can't think of any others.

Strange how the dodgy agile elves have far less capability to jump someone with surprise attacks than the drop-podders.

It seems like many newer armies actually do better at what Eldar are supposed to do best. Fast, precise, exact, purposefull. Either due to cheaper better fodder or codex creep rules giving megasquads deepstrike that never fails, or DEEPSTRIKING A LANDRAIDER??!! for instance. Better psykers... (I thought that was our strong point) better and cheaper assault (also used to be our strongpoint) etc.

We really need a new codex... until then we just have to use the one thing Eldar are good at: Be arrogant enough to just be better than all the noobs.

Guitardian wrote:We really need a new codex... until then we just have to use the one thing Eldar are good at: Be arrogant enough to just be better than all the noobs.

COMPLETELY AGREE. People say that Necrons and Dark Eldar and even Tau Empire actually need it more but they are so very wrong. Guardians 8 Points!!!??? Tyranids get Gargoyles for 6 Points. That's is 2 points less than Guardians for 1 less shot in their guns but that doesn't matter because they can Deep Strike and move 12"!!! Also, Pheonix Lords. NO INVULNERABLE SAVES!!! (except Asurmen). For 200 Point supposed "super-warriors", why does it take just 3 AP2 shots to kill them. Also, our Psykers are, according to the fluff, the best Psykers in the galaxy. Well clearly not. Mephiston, Zoanthropes and Hive Tyrants outshine Farseers with ease and Warlocks, lets face it, are just absolutely terrible compared to any other Psykers in the 40K game. Eldrad is superb but he isn't an Eternal Warrior so a Force Weapon from a Space Marine Librarian, a Missile Launcher shot or Dark Lance shot and he's gone. Sure he can have Warlock Bodyguards and have a Transport but he is targetted all the time so dies too quick to make a huge impact on the game like he really should be doing. Also why are Shining Spears 35 Points??? They suck even as shock troops. They are simply never worth their points.

Well with my rant over (I could still go on but it would take me all day to type everything that I think is nerfed with our Codex) I will leave it to waiting for GW to realise that Eldar are in as much of a need for a new Codex as anyone else.

On the upside: what we do have; Scatter-Warwalkers, drop-n-pop dragons and bladestormers in serpents.. and um... yeah. Most Tourney lists I see nowadays seem to use that formula more or less exclusively. HQ is the only up-in-the-air 'competative' choice to worry about.

Turbo Boost - Enemy units do not gain +1 attack when assaulting a unit that turbo boosted.

That would be a change to the core rule book for all jet bikes, and let's face facts guardians are not that skilled of a rider. I could see that being a shining spear aspect warrior power, but not giving it to guardians or even the seer council. Seer council are also not 100% focused on being a jet bike rider, they are warlocks 1st and jet bikers 2nd.


Bikes and Jump infantry - Gain Hit and Run during CC vs. infantry units and Monstrous Creatures

Swooping hawks, Warp Spiders, and Shining Spears should have access to hit and run either as an innate ability or exarch power. Warp Spiders & Shining Spears already have access to it though the exarch power withdraw. Guardian jet bikers are....guardians on jet bikes. Guardians are the national guard part time warriors of the craftworld, they just are not on the same level of military training as aspect warriors. Guardian Jet Bikes already have the ability to move 6" in the assault phase after shooting their guns in the shooting phase. If you really want to improve the power of Guardian jetbikes increase the range of their TL shuriken catapults.

Bonesinger - (same stats as a Warlock) Waygate - During deployment, place up to 2 Waygate markers or suitable terrain anywhere on the table subject to infiltators restrictions. 18" from enemy, or 12" away if hidden from LOS. Eldar infantry, jump infantry, jet bikes, and monstrous creatures can enter from reserves within 2" of a waygate. Waygates have AV 12 and energy fields. During play, Eldar unit types above can leave the table via the waygate and be placed in reserve. They may reenter play as a reserve unit via either waygate.

If they add webway portals they will probably just do it was wargear rather than create a new unit.

Howling Banshee Exarch - Assault Drill (+25): This model and any howling banshee unit it joins may exit a transport that traveled at combat or cruising speed along the path the transport traveled during the movement phase. Treat any terrain that is not open terrain as dangerous terrain. The unit may assault in the assault phase.

I don't think they will let banchies treat vehicles as open topped, but what you described isn't treating a vehicle as open topped it's jumping out part way through the move. If they let banchies jump out halfway through a vehicle's movement phase it will be more like "Skies of Blood" for a storm raven, or "Grav Chute Insertion" for the Vendetta. The mechanics for doing so are already written in both the IG and BA codex, so the Eldar might follow. If they add the mechanics it will probably be to the vehicle and any squad inside instead of the Banchies. That sounds good at first, but the maneuver is very dangerous, scatters like a deep strike, and units can't assault in the turn they jump out.

Autarch - Master Strategist - May designate one unit placed in reserve to gain the outflank rule. Can't use it on monstrous creatures.

Staying on par with other 5th ed armies that will probably be included as part of the +1 to reserves roll, along with a re roll to decide what side the outflanking unit comes in on, without the MC restriction.

The Autarch might also act like an Officer of the Fleet: -1 to the opponents reserve roll & re roll what side out flanking units come in on

My guess is both options will be available, but will cost extra points.

Phoenix Lords - Battle Fate - 4+ Invulnerable Save, and count 1 unit from its aspect as troops, and also, this model confers its Exarch Powers to any unit from its aspect that it joins.

I could see the invo happening, I could also see it not happening.

Turning 1 unit of elites into troops is 4th ed. The 5th ed answer is to treat all Phoenix Lords like Pedro Cantor & Sternguard, ie all Aspect Warriors of the Phoenix Lord's aspect are still elites but count as a scoring unit.

Farseer – Runes of Witnessing +25 - (add) Enemy models outside of 18" from this model cannot negate this model's psychic abilities.

It's more likely they would give the Farseer the best of 2 dice when performing a psychic hood test, but I just don't see them giving eldar something to negate a psychic hood besides killing the psycher.

Defender Guardians – Defensive grenades +1 and 0-1 weapon platform per 10 guardians.

They are assault squads with access to 2 special weapons. The trade off between regular guardians and defenders is 1 heavy weapons platform for 2 special weapons, it's not just a trade off in Assault 2 for pistols/CCW.

If you want to toughen up defender guardians improve warlock squad buffing powers for an assault.

Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault - may reroll deep strike scatter. Warp Generator move is 3d6 pick 2.

I don't see them making warp spiders jump any safer, but they must change Surprise Assault because it's a 4th ed rule (No 5th Ed mission forbids deep strike). I could see Surprise assault changing the way they scatter either as a re roll like you described, or it might work like decent of angels (re roll reserves roll if they don't come in, 1D6 scatter).

Falcon - Dedicated Transport

I could see it being a Dedicated Transport for any of the elite infantry choices.

Shining Spears – change from 35 points each to 25 points each

T4 & a 3+ armor save makes them MEQ when being shot at, they move like Jet Bikes, and they hit like Grey Knight Terminators on the turn they assault. 35 Is a bit too expensive, but 25 is way too cheap. That's the same price as a SM bike that's 1 toughness higher but doesn't have STR6 I5 power weapons on the charge, or the eldar jet bikes rule.

Like reidy and Guitardian, I do agree, there are many gaping holes. Maybe a new approach is simply identifying the weak points than listing them all.

In many cases, slapping on new abilities just isn't the answer. Shining Spears for example, may simply be over-priced.

Over all, the Eldar army needs more movement, since this is what they are all about. They're a mid-range army, they aren't shooty like Tau or IG, and they aren't melee like BA or them wolves.
* Shooty units with range 12" need to be addressed.
* The lack of melee units with disembark-and-assault options make the army a bit ungainly.

Then there are the logical black holes which is the weak Eldar psychic powers (relatively speaking) and the rare, precious, sacrificial Guardians.

And then there are the units which pay more for less. A Wraithlord pay 40 for a Brightlance, and then another 40 to make it twin-linked. A Vibro cannon costs 30, and another 30 makes it twin-linked with +1 strength, another 30 makes it twin-twin-linked with +2 strength. You don't really re-roll, you just choose the best of three dice. Except against vehicles, where you just get the re-re-roll.

Also, let's not forget (and we haven't) the lords. All of them are expensive, some of them are nonsensical *coughbaharrothcough*.

But, yes, there are several units which are, actually, spot on. You can make competitive lists with the codex. The problem is, they all look more or less the same. But that's not to say you can't use or win with the problematic units, it just takes more effort and you'd make more decisive wins if they were balanced better if you won with them a lot since it requires you to be a better player.

Twin Linked Weapons should only at the most cost 50% more than a normal single shot, not double it's cost. At the lest it should cost 1/4 to 1/3 more than a normal single shot.

reidy1113 wrote:

COMPLETELY AGREE. People say that Necrons and Dark Eldar and even Tau Empire actually need it more but they are so very wrong. Guardians 8 Points!!!??? Tau have Gun Drones for 8 Points which have Twin-Linked guns that KILL a Guardian on 2's!!!

Those drones are 10-12 points each depending upon unit, They have BS 2 and WS 2. I understand that the Eldar need Help, Have several threads on the subject, but please try be accurate when talking about stuff like this.

As to Improvements for the eldar, I've got my ideas but think it is best to focus on the OP's ideas. I'll go back to lurking now.

From the beginning:
Codex wide - All non infantry or monstrous creature type eldar units may always outflank, but may only infiltrate if it is provided in their specific rules (i don't use outflank a lot, but they gain outflank, not infiltrate). Deep strike is a technology based thing - outflank is a strategic and foresight thing. Eldar can always outflank because of how well they can plan for future events.

Bikes - the main problem with GJBs and SSs are that they simply aren't that effective - the guardian jetbikes can stay away from the enemy, can put out a few shuriken cannon shots, but can't get assaulted, can't get cover, and aren't all that tough. Shining spears are a complete joke - mainly because of what happens after they strike - if they kill their target, they are decimated in the opponent's shooting phase, because they can only ever by 5 strong T4 3+ models. If they don't kill their opponent, they get squished in the next assault phase when they hit with their 5-or-less S3 non-power weapon attacks. Bump the squad size a bit, and give them straight S4 power weapons - maybe even a pistol for the 2ccw bonus. In the era of massive mobility for everyone, a unit that simply cannot take ANY kind of punch whatsoever is useless. Maybe give all jetbike units of any kind a permanent 5+ cover save. And lower the points

Jump infantry - the crappy FA choices. The main problems with warp spiders is that they are fairly easily picked apart (T3 3+ isn't horrible, but not great), and they are mediocre in assault. Obviously, we don't want to make them great in assault, because they aren't supposed to be amazing. Their guns are good, but not great. I see three options - the current weapons are upgraded to ap6, which means they become much more potent at tank hunting, or, the deathspinner gets 18" range, or, the deathspinner becomes S6 template rending. In assault, give them all 2 ccw (non PW) and the exarch remains the same. Don't know what to do with surprise assault, but allowing them to reroll DS isn't worth dogcrap, as its not a great option for the unit.

Swooping hawks - 4+ cover at all times from their wings. lasblasters > S4 ap5 R24" Assault 3 - the grenade pack becomes them being equipped with frag, defensive, haywire, and krak (s8) grenades. The blast attack on deepstrike becomes "target unit suffers a number of grenade attacks using the grenade of the eldar player's choice exactly as if they were in close combat, with the number of attacks equal to the number of hawks at the start of the turn (hawks which die due to DT still make their attacks)". Skyleap remains, so does intercept except it is 4+, all vehicles, period. This means if they DS, they can attack a land raider anywhere on the board with up to 10 haywire grenade attacks, meaning (due to intercept) they would hit on (at worst) a 4+. 5 hits means perhaps 1 penetrating hit. It might be worth upgrading the haywires to 2-4 glancing, 5-6 pen.

Bonesinger - no. just... no.

Howling Banshee Exarch - if you let banshees assault out of transports, every mech eldar list will have 2x FD and 1x Banshee in their elite slot, and they will all three be suicide units. Boring. Things as they are now aren't terrible.

Autarch - Choice to reroll each reserve roll, choice to reroll outflanking die, add or remove 1 to opponents reserve. If an autarch and farseer are taken in the same army, the autarch may write down a unit and a turn at the beginning of the game - this unit does not roll for reserves, and enters play on the turn indicated.

Phoenix Lords - 4++ across the board. Asurmen gets 3++. crappy-hawk-guy gets an ancient pulse laser - S7 ap2 assault 3 R24" and an executioner.

Farseer - buff powers become 12", roll 2die and pick highest for opposed leadership checks (d6 + leadership), successful nullification rolls must be re-rolled. Farseers are spiritseers.

Defender Guardians - shuriken catapults become the old swooping hawk lasblaster - S3 ap5 r24". One platform for every 6 guardians, with the normal selection of weapons. 10-20 squad size.

Falcon - the suggestion above is good - for weapon firing purposes, it counts as moving one speed category less than it actually moved. A bs4 upgrade wouldn't be totally outlandish.

Shining Spears - 5+ cover at all times, S4 power weapons, pistols, 30 ppm. Or, more my preferred upgrade, 35 ppm, 5+ cover, executioners (S5 pw), 12" charge range.

my adds:

Wraithlord weapons go down 5 pts across the board, with duplicates not being TL'd, 3 attacks base. 1 upgrade required, 105 points naked.

Vypers lose OT, 40pts base

Prisms can be squadrons, but can't link outside of squadrons.

Dark reapers gain S&P, 30ppm 3-8 size

Wraithguard 30 ppm, 18" cannons, 2 attacks base

Harlequins are 18pts with a free kiss, upgrade characters lose 5pts in cost across the board.

Rangers ignore cover on a to-hit of 6, retain the "sniper" rules, pathfinders ignore cover on a 5 or 6, and retain the sniper rules. (diversifies them a bit) This is, of course, instead of the ap1 on 5, 5/6. 15/20 ppm

Avatar - S7 T7, EW, inspiring is 18" stubborn, melta gun shot is 24", 180 pts

DAs get larger bore, shorter range catapults (ie, what they have now, s4 ap5 assault 2 18", 2 ccw, exarch remains the same, 10 pts.

A minor point regarding prisms. If you want to decrease their power, is it your intention that they buy from same slot or from different HS slots?

Also, what about the support platforms? Vibro Cannon get weaker per point for each extra you chose, D-Cannon is so short ranged it suffers greatly from immobility, and Shadow Weaver suffers from being between a MEQ killer (which is high strength, low AP, small blast) and a GEQ killer (which is low strength, high AP, and large blast) .

And the snipers... I never see them mentioned...

I think it is fair to say that there are a few goals for changing the eldar codex everyone could pretty much agree with:

- de-cram the heavy support section. Prisms, falcons, wraithlords AND warwalkers are in the HS section. war walkers can go to fast attack (its described as a scout vehicle, FFS). Reapers could conceivably be moved to Elite, but i'd rather they stay heavy support and simply be made better.

- Fast Attack needs to get better. The choices there are pathetic and I have no doubt it is the least seen FoC choice for the eldar codex in any game - friendly or competitive. Hawks need a big boost, spears a big boost, spiders a medium/little one, and vypers a little one (i think nixing OT and a slight point decrease gets the vyper to where it needs to be). The fixes to the units listed above are very important if walkers get moved to Fast Attack, because if they stay as is, suddenly Walkers and Vypers are the only things ever taken from FA.

- There needs to be a diversification of Eldar anti-tank. As it is, if you want something dead, you bring fire dragons. Since there are SO many tanks out there, everyone brings a lot of fire dragons. They bring TL Brightlances on WS for backup, but its all in the fire dragons. Too big of a buff to brightlances gets dangerous, because eldar do have access to a decent amount of TL BS 3 brightlances on the serpent hull. Balanced costing is probably the best way to avoid having brightlance spam be the end-point of lists.

- Eldar elite choices need slight tweaking. It would be nice if the eldar elite choices other than fire dragons were so good they simply had to be taken. As it stands, the meta of many areas simply requires spamming fire dragons, especially at games over 2000. a slight buff to banshees, scorpions and harlequins might mitigate that problem, but the real solution will come by giving eldar other reliable sources of anti-tank.

- Eldar troops - by far the most common choice is Dire Avengers, with storm guardians a fairly distant second, defender guardians and wraithguard tussling for third, and ranger/pathfinders in fourth (from my impression). It would be nice to see these even out some.

- Eldar HQ options - the Autarch is a fairly lame and gimmicky choice for a HQ slot. Playing the reserves game basically commits eldar to last-turn objective grabs and KP-denial annihilation strategies. He could use a serious reworking, hopefully (in my view) doubling down on the strategic-genius aspect, rather than any combat aspect. Thats what the phoenix lords are for. They need a buff. Leaving them expensive is good, but we should get what we pay for. An invulnerable save, please? Farseers are good - still very powerful and with psyker powers that makes non-eldar players green with envy. Runes of warding are also very good. The only problem with farseers is Eldrad, who is so good and cheap that there is really little reason not to take him unless you need a farseer on a jetbike. There needs to be more of a reason than that. I really don't think it is fair that a regular farseer with all the fixings costs more than eldrad does, and eldrad gets extra stuff besides. The Avatar is a good choice in the current codex, but not a stellar choice. He could use a buff, but not too big of one, because he is already quite powerful when tag-teamed with a fortuneseer (almost always eldrad).

All in all, it boils down to one thing. I think the eldar codex needs to have viable good builds that don't include all the tanks and warlocks on jetbikes one can fit into the given points level. It would be nice if consideration of the elite slot didn't essentially boil down to how many fire dragon squads in wave serpents to take.

Eldar units that don't really need to change:
fire dragons
farseers
avatar
yriel
warlock squad
dire avengers
war walkers (HS->FA isn't really a change)

units that are probably ok, but could use a slight price drop:
wave serpents
falcons
fire prisms
harlequins
vypers
warp spiders
ranger/pathfinders
storm guardians
wraithguard*
dark reapers*

units that are priced ok, but need a buff
wraithguard*
dark reapers*
banshees
scorpions
wraithlords

units that need serious fixing
swooping hawks
defender guardians
heavy support platforms
shining spears
autarch
phoenix lords

units that need a cost increase:
eldrad

I put asterisks on units I felt could go either way - a points drop with rules as is, or a buff with current cost, or some combination thereof.

did i miss any?

No I think you hit all.. um... 80ish nails on the head there. I agree.

Your typical Eldar "KICK YOUR BUTT!" list is so stereotypical it's ridiculous... "really you used all 3 elite slots for Dragon Wagons? What a shock!", and all your troops slots are Bladestormers? Wow how origional.

I Think much of the problem is the things that they are good at what they do are VERY good at what they do, while everything else is just not pointsworthy (guardians), too expensive $ to spam (wraithguard/spears), just plain too easy to single out and kill (Autarch/Avatar/Wraithlord) or just kind of suck against superior Codex psykers.

Here's the problem: it can be a very strong list if it is perfect spam, but does anyone see many swooping hawks, or Barf-a--roth at tournaments? Or storm guardians. Or Vypers? Or Vibrocannons?

No you see wave serps full of dragons and avengers over and over again.

If they want us to get back in the assault game we should get some kind of assault trannie like the termies get with their land raider.. and it isn't open topped either but these giant lumbering brutes somehow are faster than us...???!!!???
(neither, oddly enough, is the more heavily armed, cheaper, and non-open topped Landspeeder compared to our more expensive and more gimpy Vyper).

Assault off transports as a de-facto ability for Eldar (just like 'we'll be back' for crons or 'ATSKNF' for marines) would be a huge boost.

They nerfed our Falcons with veh move/shoot rules, our Vypers with veh move/shoot rules, our fleety advantage with 'run', making everyone able to get a D6" extra instead of just the chosed few who's entire army was intended as a project of outmaneuver...
nerfed our psykers by putting up better ones for cheaper points, for lame cheesehammer armies new Codex, nerfed our numbers by making cheapo orks and guard while we are still stuck with bs guardians.... Nerfed our Phoenix Lords by making stackable space marine commanders who do ten times what they can do with their cute lil command squad and FNP and Shrike+Marneus combo etc... and what do we get? Oh yeah... um... nothing but the right to whine I guess. (It's an important right to have!) That's why the Eldar are a dying race I guess.... And I havent even gotten STARTED on Harlequins yet..

A new edition of the rules comes out which specifically destroys the Harlequins advantage of rending which made them so effective (which is why we had to pay so many points for them), specifically destroyed the Falcon's Firepower by taking away its ability as a gun platform and making the holo-field less effective (which is why we paid so many points for them), the Vyper's maneuverability goes away if you ever want to get a shot off with it and not be blown up by a boltgun in return, and so on...

The addition of 'run' made our 'fleet' less relevant and defining for our maneuver game... but do any of our units get cheaper because their primary abilities and advantages which make them so pointsy got nerfed by the new rules or the new Codex that gives all our advantages away like a cheap whore?

No, instead we get given the option to proxy into space wolves I guess.

New stuff gets to be better, cheaper, and (especially in the case of psykers) just downright puts us to shame. Marines can precision land a drop pod from orbit while our swooping hawks have to scatter, they can charge a bunch of lumbering armored monstrosities out of a giant rolling box in one turn be in your face while we have to dismount, wait a turn, and hope we don't get our T3 asses shredded before we get a chance to charge... They get hoods we get runes... fair enough, but they don't even pay for theirs. I could go on and on but this whole issue is making me want to use bad language.

Just my luck. I dropped IG back in 3.4 - 4 edition to pick up Eldar. Once I stop playing guard they suddenly have all the rules in their favor and the Eldar start kind of sucking and falling far behind in comparison to many armies just because of rules changes. The rules changed to help just about every other army but pretty much nerf ours, our list stayed the same. GRRR!

Brightlance - Change from AP2 to AP1. Purely practically this means only two things: they get +1 on the tank damage table and units with extra-saves (BA or Necron, for instance) don't get the save.

Wraithguards - They fill the function of being survivable troops, and as far as I can tell work quite well as this. Perhaps it's just that they are priced as glass cannons but are more riot shields in an army that tend not to use them? Lowered cost might simply do it for them.

Rangers - Changing their snipers to assault may be just the thing.

Support platforms - Platform makes the weapon an assault weapon, but the platform itself is large and does not permit running.
D-Cannon is good, but short ranged. Assault may work out for it.
Vibro Cannon needs to either give +1D6/+1 hits per cannon, or the sound amplification need to be better than +1S and also need to affect vehicle shooting.
Weaver simply suffer for having a small template or a weak weapon. Either the weapon needs to be given an AP buff or the template needs to be changed.

Shining Spears use spears. That is unchangeable. Could change the +2S and power weapon on charge to powerweapon with +2 on charge (i.e. on non-charge they are still powerweapons, just not over-charged).

Eldrad - if you factor in the strict rules which most people don't, he's not so bad. The permutations which he can use his three powers is very limited. Roughly speaking, he can choose (order is important):
Buffing A + buffing B + offense
Buffing A + buffing B + buffing A
If his points are increased, then I feel some limitations need to be removed.

war walkers (HS->FA isn't really a change)

Not really a change?? Warwalkers are extremly good for their pts, and the reason why that is ok, is because they take up heavy slots. If you could shove them into fast attack with no price increase, they would be a total nobrainer.

Nobrainers are bad, mkay?

For Eldar, yes. Nobrainers are bad. Our army seems to be doomed by the fact that you have to think about everything, you can't afford to just stomp up the middle of the board like an ork or marine.

But hey, Warwalkers are actually one of the best points-for-power units available to us. I have no problem with them at all.

3 scatter walkers + 3 full scorp squads and a pair of autarchs in the background to ensure deployment goes according to plan when and where you want it is a really mean thing to do.

But again, a tactic like that is as equally spammy as the mech list full of dragons and serps and avengers and it just gets boring. I want to play a diverse army with many different elements to it just for variety, but it seems increasingly difficult to pull off anything but a crushing defeat trying to play like that.

Well, we could always go get more fire dragons...

Wraithlords- Give them D-cannons, an extra attack, and make wrathsight effect whether they have fleet or not.

Vypers-Give the the old option of not taking the rear weapon mout and gunner and let them carry 2-3 passgers each. The passenger must have acrobatic ability so woukd be Banshees abs Harlequins. Must Take squadron of 2-4 Vypers and will handle vehicle destroyed results the same as Tau piranha and drones.
Also, maybe modify the acrobatic rule where crash landing doesn't auto-kill them if the vyper moved more than 12" and assaulting off of the vypers after moving more than 12" is possible with maybe a dangerous terrain test.

Moving War Walkers BACK to FA is a definite yes.

Make Support weapon batteries ridable but still infantry. Have them convey a +1 to Toughness and a 3+ save with a 4+ inv save.

Reapers- Make them Slow and Purposeful and to where the whole unit can upgrade to EML's, or improve the Reaper Launcher.

Falcon-Make both of the turret weapons count as a single weapon system.

Give vehicles an upgrade to reduce cover saves and call it the Crystal Targeting Matrix. Thats right, I do not want Tanks that can JSJ. It has to do with changing the momentum of something that big. JSJ on Tanks is OP'd cheese, IMO.


I've got more but that is a good start on fixing the Heavies

There are problems with giving the Wraithlord D-Cannons. Mainly that, if this is the mainstay weapon, there are a very large amount of models out there which need to be remodeled, and honestly my old one was a pain just to get to stand (it's a case of a model which *doesn't* work well in metal). Additionally, it further removes the Support Platforms' utility. If you get a unit which can move, shoot, look badass, and also duke it in melee - why take the platforms?
The 'lord can be quite the torrent if you also make it general for the entire army for Shuriken Catapults to be 18" the way I almost feel it has to be for Guardians to be remotely useful in their own right. If it is still perceived as too weak, maybe squading them 1-3 could work.

I like the slow-and-purposeful reapers. It's not like they move anyways... they cost WAAAAY too much and die easily. Give them that and it could almost make up for their points sink. Most reapers I've seen in other people's lists just take the minimum so they can get the tempest launcher exarch (also ludicrous cost).

@Mahtamori-Forcing people to remodel and buy new stuff is why I think GW would go for the D-cannons on Wraithlords. Also, the Lords and Support weapons now come in plastic. Also, it fits with the wraith theme and the Eldar currently have enough unit carrying BL's and EML's.

As to the Support Batteries, VoF is why people would take them. Currently, no one really takes them and even with my suggested changes I don't know how many would take them. This is because of the relatively limited range of the D-cannon and Shadow Weaver. Now make the unit becomes relentless because of the Platforms then you have mobile heavy support that throws out a ton of Fire power. Even then there may be range issues but I think that these ideas are a step in the right direction.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Falcons and Wave Serpents will get a 15 point reduction in price in 5th ed.

Falcons becoming a dedicated transport option for any squad but guardians would make them more viable because they would no longer take up a HS slot.

Rangers don't need their rifles to be assault weapons. No sniper weapon in the game is an assault weapon, they are all heavy because they take lots of time to take a careful aim. Rangers don't need a WS upgrade, they need to stay out of CC. The mechanics of rangers & pathfinders are fine, the only things people can argue is they should come down in price.

Dark Reapers are fine, the problem with dark reapers isn't that the unit if flawed it's that the game has shifted towards mechanized infantry. Dark Reapers like most Eldar units are specialized to do 1 job well. In the case of Dark Reapers that job is to mow down MEQ. The problem is S5 AP3 shots are just not useful against vehicles, and most players are favoring mech. The argument that Dark Reapers suck in 5th ed is like saying an excellent high quality knife doesn't work well as a hammer for diving in nails. If you improve the quality of a knife it still won't work for crap as a hammer. If you create an unholy tool that works as a knife and a hammer it will become excessively expensive. If you change the knife into a hammer you completely destroy what dark reapers should be, and make them a redundant unit that does the same job as fire dragons. Work your way through the 5 stages of grief and accept the fact that elite long ranged anti MEQ firepower will never be as useful in 5th ed as it was in previous editions of the game.

Wraith Lords are T8, and after the night bringer is phased out they will be the only T8 unit left in the game. The only real changes they need is their twin linked weapons should cost 25 to 50% more than the single shot version, not double, and the wraith sword needs some tweaking maybe +1A instead of it's current re roll. Wraith Lords might also follow the 5th ed nid codex where Eldar can field them in squadrons like a Carnifax as a single heavy support choice.

The Bright Lance should be buffed to AP1. PS BA FNP doesn't work against AP2

The #1 thing needed for wraithguard is plastic models. Their point cost is close to what it should be, and they only need a little bit of tweaking. For starters their guns should be upgraded to AP1 Another possibility following the logic of the 5th ed nid codex would be for every full 10 man squad that is taken as a troops choice 1 wraith lord can be taken as a troops choice.

The weakness of scorpions and warp spiders is a lack of anti vehicle. 1st give both of them haywire grenades. 2nd give warp spiders the swooping hawk ability intercept that allows them to always hit units with no WS (vehicles) on no worse than a 4+

Regarding Rangers "just need to stay out of cc" comment with their sniper guns becoming assault instead of heavy, from the above post... I can see how a human would need to take lots of time to aim, but supposedly eldar are just much quicker in their reaction time, so it is not so far fetched an idea that they could be represented like that with an assault sniper gun. If anything it could offset the fact that every army but ours got a huge boost from the 'run' rule. We got nothing out of that except our fleet dominance becoming far less relevant.

The bit about 'just need to stay out of cc' is, in our modern times, easier said than done, with so many flanking, deepstriking, drop podding, land raider rushing, Gayskill waah (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) and such going on it's kind of an impossible dream to keep anything from being assaulted.

Let me explain my thought process. And let me start with the easy one first.

Bright Lance. I haven't really read the FnP rules throughly, but I have been playing WHFB a lot in the past where 1+ or even 0+ saves were permitted and thought "well, a 1+ save could exist, just to give the finger to AP2 weapons since a 1 always fail". I'm sure I'd have spotted it if I had searched the YMDC section.

Rangers WS4. This was part of a greater scheme. Rangers WS4 means Pathfinders get suitably higher WS. Pathfinders being squad leaders opens up for more options. One option would be to let them lead, guide, other squads such as Guardians. Defender Guardians would benefit naturally from a Pathfinder's sniper rifle, while Stormies would benefit most from special rules, but then you'd need the Pathfinders to actually be meaningful in CC.
If that scheme doesn't happen, WS4 on Rangers would only serve to give them an aura of veterancy.

Long Rifles as assault. Ye. I may still be stuck in a 3rd edition mind-set where tank armies didn't happen so much, and where the focus for everyone was to get as many AP3 or better shots as possible, but I still have managed to get through the forehead that the new edition(s) put emphasis on mobility.

What you're describing is the relentless USR, which a sniper unit just should not have. Rangers just don't shoot long rifles from the hip at a full run. They also tend to hide which gives them the stealth USR, and is the polar opposite of shooting on the run. If you really want to increase their mobility give them "Like the wind" from the IG codex where after they shoot they can immediately move 1D6" The only remaining problem is extra movement won't help them much. Rangers are T3 ,have no armor, and the stealth USR. Once they are placed in a piece of terrain it's rather suicidal for them to move out into the open. The only excuse rangers ever have for moving into an unprotected position is a deamon prince just lashed them there.

The only way to keep rangers from being assaulted is to protect them with other units. A transport with banchies near by or a wraith lord in the same building as the rangers makes assaulting them a risky idea. What kills rangers is people infiltrate into no man's land leaving them completely unsupported between the friendly and enemy battle lines. That's a bad idea, especially against a CC army. It's literally choosing to deploy specialized ranged units unsupported and closer to enemy CC units.

WS4 on pathfinders would be rather harmless. They are still A1 S3 T3 no armor in CC. Even if they were WS4 they would still get stomped in CC by nids, MEQ, orks, and even guardsmen. They could be WS6 and the answer would still be "avoid getting rangers into CC" Rangers are between guardians and aspect warriors so BS4 WS3 makes perfect sense for them, but for fluff reasons I agree that pathfinders should but on par with aspect warriors so BS4 WS3 might not make sense (though they do have a lot of training bonuses in their sniping ability and extra +1 stealth) For purely fluff reasons sure go ahead and make them WS4, but if you actually want to buff up pathfinders keep them WS3 and make them all BS5.