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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Skarwael wrote:Speaking of which, whatever happened to the Celestial Lions?

Always loved the story of those guys.

That was a sad one. Really showed what the Inquisition is really like. They are extinct as far as I know.

I thought they had half a company left. Not sure about apothecaries, though. I think the vindicare killed all of them. If they asked another chapter nicely it would have been possible for them to rebuild, no?

Corey85 wrote:Eh, I can't see a loyal chapter ever letting go of its identity. Their pride would cloud their reason. Now sure, you might say but what about the Black Templars and so forth, and my response to that is, the break up after the heresy was a direct order of the primarchs, which is basically a direct order from the emperor. With all the primarchs dead or out of action I just don't see a chapter ever surrendering their chapter again.

They only broke up because they feared it would have lead to another war of infighting between the space marines so after trying to keep the black templars and such as one legion they broke up to 5(I think, I know its smaller then the rest) just so they wouldn't fight each other or the inquisition. The Space wolves said no thanks brah we're gonna keep ourselves together and keep fighting Chaos like Leman would have wanted us too and we dont understand why you arn't doing the same. So the Inquisition came to break up the Space Wolves for being traitors and well.. that didnt work.


I also can't see any marines joining any other chapter. It would be a slight against the honor of all their fallen brothers and would probly mean having to give up their recruiting worlds to another chapter which I dont see them ever doing.

Shatter.proof wrote:

Corey85 wrote:Eh, I can't see a loyal chapter ever letting go of its identity. Their pride would cloud their reason. Now sure, you might say but what about the Black Templars and so forth, and my response to that is, the break up after the heresy was a direct order of the primarchs, which is basically a direct order from the emperor. With all the primarchs dead or out of action I just don't see a chapter ever surrendering their chapter again.

They only broke up because they feared it would have lead to another war of infighting between the space marines so after trying to keep the black templars and such as one legion they broke up to 5(I think, I know its smaller then the rest) just so they wouldn't fight each other or the inquisition. The Space wolves said no thanks brah we're gonna keep ourselves together and keep fighting Chaos like Leman would have wanted us too and we dont understand why you arn't doing the same. So the Inquisition came to break up the Space Wolves for being traitors and well.. that didnt work.


I also can't see any marines joining any other chapter. It would be a slight against the honor of all their fallen brothers and would probly mean having to give up their recruiting worlds to another chapter which I dont see them ever doing.

Black Templars are the biggest chapter actually. About 6,000 of them but they like to keep that on the down low. Which I think is interesting.

While some would take the blaze of glory approach, I expect the more pragmatic chapters would simply turn to their brother successor chapters for assistance in rebuilding.

SilverMK2 wrote:Or they might just go out in a blaze of glory,

I like this one best

I think they might so long as it's a related chapter. For instance the Black Templars a successor chapter to the imperial fists wouldn't go and join the Flesh Tearers a successor of the Blood Angels.

I really don't think it would ever happen, because the honour of a chapter is too important. Also the chapter they would merge with would either become too big or they would also be like half a chapter, and in that case, who would be the chapter master? and you can get loads of questions like that, and if the terra would be involved, the chapter is held together by force, and I don't think any chapter would allow this, again because of honour.

Bytheway, Black Templars were not a legion.

If none of their apothecaries are still alive they may have geneseed donated to them by another chapter and be temporarily given an apothecary from another chapter. In some cases the Imperium may grant the chapter a new homeworld for recruiting purposes (the Mantis Warriors one being given to the Space Sharks).

This of course only applies if you were fighting against traitors when you lost most of your guys. If your a traitor chapter (e.g. losing side of the Badab Uprising) then your screwed.

Just don't accept geneseed from the Blood Ravens, you don't know where it's been...

In the case of the Angry Marines, they just split up and butcher everything they come across until they find another chapter and scare it into joining them.

-Go on a Crusade until the chapter is completely destroyed

-Consolidate into another chapter

-Consolidate into the Deathwatch

-Become members of Inquisitional Retinues (in cases of very, very few members remaining)

-Become renegade

-Rebuild from the remains of the old chapter that can scavanged, with assistance from geneseed resources and men from other chapters. Effectivly diluting the chapter into a new one.

No. Probaly not most chapters are too proud

In the space marine codex it says that the Invaders chapter is functioning in a support role to the Novamarines, which probably means that a chapter that is understrength would operate in support to other chapters until their strength is back.

As said it really would depend on the chapter and why its low on members. It could be due to unstable gene seed stock meaning very few recruits survive to full membership. This in itself can be a critical threat to an unestablished chapter as the inquisition can get involved pretty quickly. Plus if its just due to major losses it would also depend on if they have close enough ties with other chapters that share gene seed stock ( founded from same first founding ) or if they're aloof and on the fringes of Imperial society to begin with. I guess 2 chapters that have close ties and are irrevocably at the level where neither could survive might join to create a new founding. Though I'd call that an exception rather than a rule. Its not like the imperial guard where its very common for under strength elements to be amalgamated into larger, more effective formations.

I reckon if they were low enough in numbers they would

Im not so sure. Surely losing their heritage would be like losing their soul. EVerything they are is defined by their chapter. A blood angel who liked to quaff blood really wouldnt fit into an ultramarine chapter, would they? However, that wouldnt happen, as blood angels are an official chapter, and therefore immune to anything thrown at them.

I'm having trouble finding it, but I know there is fluff of some chapters that know they are slowly going extinct because they cannot replenish their numbers sufficiently due to heavy losses and/or geneseed flaws. Which implies that there is a critical mass somewhere, below which a chapter can't recover itself. It probably varies slightly depending on the nature of the chapter. It makes sense, because there is always going to be geneseed that you cannot recover (unable to get it on the battlefield despite the best efforts) and given the lifestyle of marines I can see how two marines can fall for every one trained if circumstances are against them.

In which case I think the chapter would fight the inevitable for as long as possible. For as long as they can maintain a battlegroup they fight, and when they can't (so a few dozen marines left, they'd probably have stopped recruiting a year or two previously knowing they couldn't train them before the better end) then the survivors would form a Deathwatch team or similar. <.< Probably staying together or at least in squad groups in the whole 'we are dead already, but still brothers' mentality. The chapter banner would be sent to that hall on Terra with honour once they hit that point.

SM chapters are totally independent of each other. Their only commonality is the recognition of the Emperor and tolerance of the overall rule from Terra. They will fight each other where their goals differ by the mearest detail.

Whilst understrength chapters would be used in support roles I do not see a case, even for chapters sharing common gene seed, heritage or fundamental ideology, for a chapter to be absorbed into another.

The character of a chapter is (40k wise) inbred into each individual marine.

I would see it as being dishonourable to SM's to amalgamate chapters let lone the chance it may be heretical.

I could see a permanent presence within The Deathwatch though remaining members would be seen as dead men walking and without a parent chapter this would be seen as odd?

Body guards to the Inquisition.

Or the remaining members would have their geneseed culled and the samples returned to Terra along with hearldry etc. (A likely scenario in the Grimdark).

Who really knows?

The Blood Angel successor chapters lent their aid to their parent chapter after that disaster with the greater demon, I think. Or at least they were appealed to when it looked like their parent chapter was at risk of being wiped out.

The Dark Angel successors work very closely with them, to the point that they will take prisoners back to the Rock and it is implied a chaplain can become Interrogator-Chaplains (who are inner circle Dark Angel members).

It does seem that some of the 1st founding chapters that were from the original legion hold much closer ties to their parent chapter than the later foundings do, so for them merger is much, much more likely.