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@Foldalot- Please to read the entire thread. then read this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291698.page

While this started out as a personal challenge I have found that my version of the list decimates MEQ's and monsterous creature lists. You might bring up the effectiveness of railguns and I counter that I can get 4X the number of melta shots for the price of one railhead.

Also, your coming off a bit over the top. Some might think you are trolling but I think it is you silly yelling soldier avatar.

later

FF, I am very familiar with your goals for a more balanced and diverse Tau army list, and I think it's a great idea; people do need to think outside the box if they want to improve not only their lists but also their generalship. I am also an avid reader of your thoughts on Tau, and have already poured over your threads numerous times, I am in no way ignorant of your views of the army. I also gladly appreciate the efficiency of meltaguns, and the role they play in Tau lists of all sizes.

Having said this I would like to counter with this. At 2500 points it is imperative to be able to kill or at least cripple enemy armour from turn 1, Broadsides excel in this role, a role no number of Piranhas would ever be able to fulfill; you are clearly an experienced tau player so I won't seek to lecture you on the benefits of Braodsides beyond highlighting their durability, reliabilty and immense range, features which lend themselves to a very powerful unit if it keeps firing all game. At such a large points value, relying on 2 glass hammer units seems too easy to counter for the enemy, and even if they do stay alive, the footprint of the unit (whilst large) isn't enough to cover all targets. On the topic of killing power versus efficiency I would also like to say that everytime a hit is taken by the Piranha unit its striking power is reduced greatly and that other more traditional anti tank options don't have this trouble (shield drones etc).


I regretfully however make no apologies for expressing my opinion on what I firmly believe is a gimmick filled Tau list (I'm only talking about this individual list) which ignores some of the Tau's best threats simply too make a point.

Hopefully, this post isn't interpretted as Trolling NO MATTER HOW MUCH I YELL, or of how much you may disagree with what I say.

First of all, I will never take emp grenades off of my fire warriors, not only are they an EASY small point source for eliminating empty landraiders, but in case the gak does hit the fan, there is one unexpected last ditch effort to remove thse pesky vehicles camping objectives to contest. ANd hay, look at that, they are troops! Which means if they are successful, then they also retake the objective!

I have used them in three separate tournaments, and each tournament a fire warrior squad has been responsible for dispatching at least one landraider.

You also talk of responsible generals, I would like you to tell me about one general, who has landraiders in their list and DOESNT proceed to throw them right in your face, screening most other vehicles. They are SPONGES for damage because of their armor, noone keeps them on the backfield or weaves them around, I mean cummon....

Tau also lacks 2 things in its current metagame that many people seem to ignore...those two things are redundancy, and numbers. Everything in tau is overpriced compared to todays codicies, which means that any standard army today will simply overrun Tau.

Redundancy is also important in terms of rate of success, one broadside unit that has the potential to aim at 1(2) targets, will in most circumstances be considered extremely high profile for the potential damage they may cause. Think of the amount of podding/DS armies these days, now tell me a SnP Broadside unit with 1-2 shield drones is gonna last long against any deep strike unit with power weapons. Even something uncommon, like shooty terminators...they DS in, cause anywhere from 1-6 wounds(on average) and in most circumstances cause them to flee. There goes that expensive broadside unit.

Now dont get me wrong, I LOVE broadsides, I am an avid supporter of battlesuits, but these days they die too damn quick.

Fireknives I am not going to even go into, they suck, this is my opinion, they are way to expensive to use in quantity, very unreliable, and extremely vulnerable in most circumstances. I would take mixed deathrains over them in any scenario.

A last little reminder, this thread is continually being argued and defended as FF idea, now I appreciate this, and the concept was initially his, but in NO way is this his list, nor are our play styles the same. It is also not gimmicky, in that it still takes many commonly used items in the Tau arsenal, I am simply inflecting upon an idea, and adapting it for my own use.

I also don't appreciate the implications about MY experience in the game, according to how I build lists or other users own experience. And if one were to read the thread from the beginning, I AM NOT EVEN ENTERING ARD BOYZ, I WAS ASKED TO COME UP WITH A LIST BY A FRIEND AS IF I WERE...

Lastly, I challenge anyone to first present some ON SITE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IDEA before automatically discrediting it... Talk is cheap, experience teaches all...

Ok sorry, I can tell my tone was perhaps....too inciting. For that I am sorry

Perhaps 'gimmick' is a bit harsh, but it does sum up what this list (your list, not FF's) seems like to me; a list which apparently disreagards conventional Tau options simply because they are conventional, and attempts to shoehorn other units into filling the gaps. breaking the mould as it were does have some small degree of merit, but should not be the emphasis of decision making.

**Disclaimer: Please note that with the exception of my EMP comment all my thoughts so far apply only to the 2500 point level of the game**

I believe a 0 railgun list can work, and work well, but I do not believe that such a list can work well at 2500 points for reasons you yourself have highlighted. All lists require some degree of redundancy and that is ultimately the single greatest problem this list has, all its anti tank is tied up in 2 units, this is not your fault as there are only 6 slots in the tau codex that you can fill with melta weaponry (I'm discounting HQ's because they should be bolstering leadership in squads, not suicide jumping) and at 2500 points those 6 slots need to do a lot of work; you have filled your elites with troop killing crisis suits, and rightly so might I add, so you are left with only 3 slots to play with. This means you only give yourself 3 slots in your entire army to take down the enemy armour with. Compounding this fact, you have only filled 2 slots with Piranhas, for squad size I would suggest rather than 2*4 you go 2*3+2.

In smaller sized games you get a lot more room to work with given your 6 slots, and as such I would imagine the army would acheive its desired goals far more efficiently.

This brings me neatly back to what I have said quite a bit now (and will continue to say ), Broadsides will put out consistly high damage efficiently (both for points versus time firing and slot efficiency) until they are silenced through a vast amount of firepower (I assume the broadsides will have taken drones and be sitting in cover). As to your concern with deepstrikers, you may loathe me for adopting the 'group think' but PR/MP will erase almost all deepstriking threats consistently. Don't worry about powerweapons, you are the Tau Empire, you can shoot most units off the board before they get the chance to assault (BA being the exception ofcourse, but thats another matter entirely) and if he insists upon risking an expensive termie squad by deepstriking near the board edge- where the broadsides will typically be- well, you should be content in swapping expensive units with him.

As to the Firewarriors with EMP's it sounds like you have found some success with them, and as such all the reasoning in the world I may give won't sway you I suppose without using railguns there may be more cases where land raiders are in your deployment zone, and a greater need to assault them to death?

On the topic of bubble wrapping Av14 have you considered not all heavy vehicles will be rushing towards you? Leman Russes are the obvious example of a unit that will rarely expose its flank if it stays on the back line, and will happily shoot down range until your melta has been eliminated, I would also humbly advise that you not always pressume the foe will rush their raiders at your melta guns, indeed sometimes they will; but sometimes they will sit back for a turn, maybe 2, kill your melta and then romp the table, as you have nothing except fire warriors (in assault) to damage them.

Hmmm thats quite a long post, but I think I've now said everything I wanted to say (and hopefully come off more calmly in doing so too )

gameandwatch wrote:A last little reminder, this thread is continually being argued and defended as FF idea, now I appreciate this, and the concept was initially his, but in NO way is this his list, nor are our play styles the same. It is also not gimmicky, in that it still takes many commonly used items in the Tau arsenal, I am simply inflecting upon an idea, and adapting it for my own use.

Sorry, if I have overstepped. Was trying to give background on the origins of the initial concept not hijack the thread.

Foldalot wrote:This brings me neatly back to what I have said quite a bit now (and will continue to say ), Broadsides will put out consistly high damage efficiently (both for points versus time firing and slot efficiency) until they are silenced through a vast amount of firepower (I assume the broadsides will have taken drones and be sitting in cover). As to your concern with deepstrikers, you may loathe me for adopting the 'group think' but PR/MP will erase almost all deepstriking threats consistently. Don't worry about powerweapons, you are the Tau Empire, you can shoot most units off the board before they get the chance to assault (BA being the exception ofcourse, but thats another matter entirely) and if he insists upon risking an expensive termie squad by deepstriking near the board edge- where the broadsides will typically be- well, you should be content in swapping expensive units with him.

There is an aspect of the metagame that your analysis is lacking. That is the 'Nids. So far the veteran 'Nids players have spent so much time bemoaning the points increase of the carnifex, the loss of T 7, and being terrified by the Space wolves that a lot of them haven't fully realized the potential of their new codex, but their are a bunch of new 'Nids players that do realize the potential here. Their are incredibly effective combinations in the new 'Nids 'dex and the one that concerns me is the combination of Mawloc & DoM. This combo when fielded with Swarmlord/Tyrant will destroy a broadside castle or any infantry based Heavy Support by second turn. Fortunately, the majority of lists I've seen so far have been spamming HG & the Tervigon/termagaunt combo but their are a few creative individuals that will be bringing original lists with combinations like this and probably even better.

Their are incredibly effective combinations in the new 'Nids 'dex and the one that concerns me is the combination of Mawloc & DoM.

Flavour with spore mine clusters for full effect and make all your troops DS or outflank. However this list doesn't really do great against many types of army and depends on HC working from reserves (if he deploys you just blow him away) and on Mawlocs being able to target units with their DS (which soem people are stioll trying to argue against).

But in a competitive environment Tau are a such a disadvantage anyway I don't see why many commanders would build a list designed or geared towards killing Tau. Space Marines can literally assault you with everything on turn 1 if they wanted and you have to get away from eth idea that you can avoid assault or even get shots off before you are in it.

Foldalot wrote:"Gimmick: In marketing language, a gimmick is a quirky feature that distinguishes a product or service without adding any obvious function or value."

Boasting over not using Railguns seems a little odd to me. Why would you willingly give up your best way of downing AV 14 vehicles? I see 2 units in your list that can kill heavy tanks. 2 units. At 2500 points. Sheesh. Do you honestly believe that any half compotent general will let your 2 anti tank units within 6 inches of his prized armour, that he wouldn't just 'bubble wrap' them with infantry or simply shoot your 8 light skimmers out of the sky? I'm impressed that you are looking for news ways to make Tau work, honestly I am, but handicapping your self in this way isn't the way to go; just invest in some good old fashioned PR/MP and Railguns and shoot the frickin enemy off the table I say.

Will Piranhas kill tanks? Most certainly. Would I rely on them to do all the heavy lifting in my army? Hell no. 2 units that are only AV 11 10 10 and also open topped AND IN A SQUADRON won't last very long at all against any dedicated anti tank. Also, please remove the EMP's from the Fire warriors, its a waste of points, if your Fire warriors are charging Tanks something has gone seriously wrong (Maybe your 2 (TWO!!!) anti tank units were killed and 2500 points of armour walzted into your deployment zone )

Its Ard boyz gentlemen, you can untie your hands from behind your back and let loose a few swings, bring some proper lists.

WOW pretty much summed it all up for me as well.

FlingitNow wrote:

Their are incredibly effective combinations in the new 'Nids 'dex and the one that concerns me is the combination of Mawloc & DoM.

Flavour with spore mine clusters for full effect and make all your troops DS or outflank. However this list doesn't really do great against many types of army and depends on HC working from reserves (if he deploys you just blow him away) and on Mawlocs being able to target units with their DS (which soem people are stioll trying to argue against).

But in a competitive environment Tau are a such a disadvantage anyway I don't see why many commanders would build a list designed or geared towards killing Tau. Space Marines can literally assault you with everything on turn 1 if they wanted and you have to get away from eth idea that you can avoid assault or even get shots off before you are in it.

Its not just Tau. This combo does a number on the army the the nid players call the paper to their rock, the scissors to their paper, the Spock to their everything. The Space Wolves. This combo disrupts/destroys their Grey Hunters and dose a decent job on Thunder Wolf Cavaly. When the 'Nids players figure this out and that this build doesn't require rebuilding half of their army you will see this combo much more.

Its not just Tau. This combo does a number on the army the the nid players call the paper to their rock, the scissors to their paper, the Spock to their everything. The Space Wolves. This combo disrupts/destroys their Grey Hunters and dose a decent job on Thunder Wolf Cavaly. When the 'Nids players figure this out and that this build doesn't require rebuilding half of their army you will see this combo much more.

But Space wolves don't have to bunch up or castle to be effective so good deployment will largely neuter the combo if you know it's coming. Tau don't have a viable answer to it at all. It can also nail certain IG builds (or basically any build geared towards castling).

@ Flingitnow- we are getting a bit off topic with this but this combo can be used to snipe key units in an elite army. It has many possibilities.

@All Posters- Sorry for the minor derail. Please continue.

gameandwatch wrote:@ MRDrumMachine- Took a look at your list, and not to be rude, but I honestly fear nothing that that list brings to the table. First off, Heavy wise, assuming of course we were both at ard boys, and playing each other, assuming you are aiming at my tanks with your heavies and you have first turn with views on any of them... half your shots on average will get through, with only a 23% chance of destroying a HH, and a 50%(roughly) chance of destroying a devilfish...

Nothing else greatly threatens my armor(BS3 missile pods mean 9 total hits on average, 4-5 of which are ignore, and only a 33% chance to do any total damage on av 12, av13 being almost no chance. I will give you the benefit of the dice, you get good odds, and kill a HH and a devilfish. My turn starts, frontline piranhas are in range of all your vehicles, other piranhas are aiming at one unit of broadsides, all my suits are in range, etc. Being within 12" with piranhas means no DP, and most likely all of your vehicles are gone, with 1 broadside team at half strength(perhaps retreated off the board).

Granted this is obviously entirely hypothetical, but because of the small number of reliable units in your army, and small numbers in general(i do not understand 10 man units of kroot) I just dont see anyway you would be able to beat my list...

If you have a different theory, then please tell me how exactly you would pick apart this list... and keep in mind we use the same army, and same units, and therefore no one can outrun the other...

A lot of course depends on deployment. I've often found deployment will either lose or win me games. If by chance I am going first against your army and you start with your piranhas on the table those are target #1. My reason being they're the biggest threat in your army and incredibly vulnerable to str 7/6. If I remove all your piranhas in 1 turn (somewhat unlikely but with a squad of pathfinders to boost my BS to 5 for one unit and 4 for the other 2 if needed) I'm fairly confident you would only have 1-2 piranhas left after turn 1. Also, while you may be within 12" of a vehicle I would have to make sure that in movement you wouldn't be able to get within 6" which is pretty easily done with the gun drones from my own piranhas.

Just to show my target priority against you in my head here's what I would anticipate. I'm not great at mathhammer but if I can get 9 shots at bs 5 that's ~ 8 hits couple pens and a glance or 2 with you saving half and with +1 on the charts and immobilized = wrecked they shouldn't last much past the 2nd fireknife squad. My HQ and deathrain bodyguards would work on the other squad of piranhas and the 3rd fireknife squad should clean up the rest. After that I mop up either with split rail gun shots against the remaining piranhas or devilfish.

I'm of the philosophy that you should fire railguns at rhinos and razorbacks first before going after heavy stuff like land raiders. They are MUCH more consistent at taking out lower armor if missile pods haven't done the trick yet.

For deployment I try to layer my defenses for my suits as a line of kroot directly in front of the suits (preferably with a cover save from terrain otherwise a cover save from piranha gun drones). I don't generally leave my deplyoment zone until after turn 1 (if I'm going first) so I can see where my opponent is heading and try to gauge what their target priority is.

To guard against your ionheads I would have to JSJ from behind devilfish for cover saves, and bubblewrap important units with less important ones or at least give cover saves to as many things as possible (which is pretty easy thanks to the amazing disruption pod).

This is all theory but just to show my target priority with my missile pods and railguns it would be your piranhas until they're gone or useless, then your devilfish until they're gone or immobilized, then your ionheads/suits. I would anticipate losses but the odds of you being able to kill my broadsides or my railhead are very slim when you no longer have mobility for your emp or your piranhas which will allow me to shake/stun/ your ionheads to uselessness.

I'm not saying it won't be a bloody drag out fight but without your fast movers and with cover saves for me against anything coming my way I really think you have an uphill battle.

I really respect you and FF for trying different strategies and configurations for Tau, but I feel ignoring some of the most unique aspects of the Tau arsenal is folly and good opponents will make you pay for it.

Alright so straight off in more scenarios than not, as FF does, I will also hold my piranhas in reserve, I am probably also going to remove the twin link from my HQ so that a positional relay can be installed.

Obviously this means that with piranhas off the table, most of the High priority targets will become my other vehicles, probably my HHs over everything else. Which means, we would just have to see who ends up doing the most damage to each other, but I am fairly confident I would do well, as the sheer volume of fire I have is higher.

@FF- No worries man, I just didn't want this thread to turn into you having to defend your idea, and instead for people to discuss why or why not this list would or wouldn't work. As you put, lets not get sidetracked.

Someone mentioned back field artillery, as in leman russes and such... All I have to say is with the new assault on vehicles rules in fifth, and after a certain blood angels game I played, I am not worried about this as outflank kroot handle this problem rather nicely. Even a leman russ has 10 rear armor

Otherwise, the adaption and acceptance of this idea simply comes from experience playing the game. It is not an attempt to reinvent Tau, it is more an attempt to show that we aren't bound by what others would claim to be "mandatory" units in ANY Tau army. After too many games where HH whiff continually, or broadsides just get locked up or killed early on, I decided it was time for a change.

Most games I watch Tau players play, or even myself back in the day, Tau players as a whole would boast their railguns potential death to whole armies, and brag for what is to come. Then once the Tau players railgunz are gone, the Tau player becomes lost and the fragile glue that held his army together begins to crumble as the general, with a very TAU attitude starts to panic. After trying so many variations and strategies over and over again, I have found nothing that can replace the sheer comfort and confidence that comes with TRULY reliable units.

Oh, I almost forgot, someone had also mentioned something about people holding landraiders back, until the serious anti raider ordinance is removed. Well, a few things, first, the piranhas are off the board to begin with in almost all scenarios, which means nothing to preemtively kill. Second, with nothing too seriously threatening on the table, in come the raiders. This is actually BENEFICIAL to the tau player for two reasons, one being that if the stuff is in your face, then genrally his rear units are nice and exposed... And the second reason is as Tau doctrine has taught us, you must be patient luring your enemy in with a false sense of security until at last, the killing blow can be struck!

This is actually BENEFICIAL to the tau player for two reasons, one being that if the stuff is in your face, then genrally his rear units are nice and exposed... And the second reason is as Tau doctrine has taught us, you must be patient luring your enemy in with a false sense of security until at last, the killing blow can be struck!

With the huge exception that the most threatening thing about most Landraiders is their contents...

I'm not convinced your units are anymore reliable than the standard build counter parts. You just have different things fulfilling the same role.

gameandwatch wrote:Alright so straight off in more scenarios than not, as FF does, I will also hold my piranhas in reserve, I am probably also going to remove the twin link from my HQ so that a positional relay can be installed.

Obviously this means that with piranhas off the table, most of the High priority targets will become my other vehicles, probably my HHs over everything else. Which means, we would just have to see who ends up doing the most damage to each other, but I am fairly confident I would do well, as the sheer volume of fire I have is higher.

I was just responding to what your proposed deployment was in the scenario given. I'm really not sure what holding your piranhas off the table will do to change the outcome. When they come on, they turbo boost, can't shoot, die in my shooting phase and we move on to the meat grinder again.

I seriously doubt you're silly enough to shoot at my broadsides and hammerhead with ion cannon so when exactly would they be silenced? Outflanking Kroot? If it's on the table it has bubble wrap or protection, that's why I run 4 squads of kroot and don't worry about going to ground when I have to. My guess is they'd be shooting at my piranhas which is fine, they're not terribly important in my army but very dangerous to yours. You would start with your crisis suits (I hope as you'd want to use the AP3 on mine) and out of 20 missiles you have about 14 hits, 7 glance/pen and 3.5 actual rolls on the table and that's assuming you don't overshoot at one of my squads and with only 1 target lock in 3 squads odds are in my favor I'll have at least 1 or 2 piranhas to run in your face and worry you.

Then you shoot with your ion cannons at my devilfish or my crisis suits. It's a bit of a wash as you MIGHT be able to make me take a test on one squad if you shoot all of your Ion cannons at them. 9 shots 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 saves, probably 2 wounds on suits and a dead drone, no test. If you go for my fish with 9 shots you have 6 hits, 1 glance 1 pen and 1 roll on the table 50/50 whether you have -2 on the roll.

If you choose to shoot at my devilfish with the suits then it looks even worse for you as out of the 14 hits you get 2 glance and 2 pen? So 2 rolls on the table later I probably have both devilfish on the table if damaged or stunned/shaken/weapon destroyed and still have my most threatening unit on the table for your army, my piranhas.

Then the Ion is up to bat and you get to do little to nothing to a crisis team or you get to take out maybe 1 squad of piranhas.

I'm giving you the benefit of the first turn in my thought process.

If I have first turn then you're already down a warfish (4 markers + broadsides is BS4 no cover and a good shot at killing 1 a turn, when no piranhas are available) and all my crisis fire goes into your crisis teams until your piranhas show up, then my priorities switch to them and maybe your ion heads, but with only 3 shots and cover for me I just don't see you killing enough crisis suits to make them a higher priority than your own to kill.

Take it as you will but I don't see how giving your opponent clearer target priority by leaving piranhas off the table is ever a good idea. I always try to present as many threats as possible for as long as possible to as many units as possible until either my opponent is on the defensive or I am.

Well obviously per scenario, tactics will change, but the major difference between our two armies is that I have superior anti tank mobility, broadsides are slow, no two ways about it, and the few vehicles or troops you have that can screen, are paper under massed fire. In most circumstances, unless I had a very good shot on some other unit, most of my early shots would be wholly dedicated on your pathfinders, with pathfinders out of the way, the rest of the army begins to crumble in effectiveness. And no matter how much you "Castle" your units, with the amount of things you are presenting, and the methods in which you present them(screening krrot and such) this means your mobility suffers, which in my opinion is a death sentence to tau. As well, 40 screening kroot, 2 devilfishes and such is a rather large footprint, gonna be hard to hide things...Time and time again people have proven gunline tau doesnt work anymore, and I fail to see your army being very effective with the pathfinders gone...

Last I checked having roughly half of my force mechanized made it a hybrid rather than a gunline

Broadsides are slow indeed, but I don't really care considering they can shoot almost corner to corner and side/rear armor shots doesn't matter nearly as much with str 10 as it does for str 7 and 8.

Where you're getting the idea that you have more firepower than me is really confusing. More accurate? Maybe, to an extent, but certainly not more.



At 48"+ you have 9 str 7 ap3

I have 5 str 10 ap 1 that are either more or just as accurate.

At 36" you have 20 str 7 AP4 with 2 as BS 4 or 14 t/l BS 3 and 4 with just BS3

I have 30 str 7 ap4 with 2 BS 5, 4 T/L and 24 BS3, and 8 shots to act as force multipliers for the rest of my army (while useful not entirely necessary)

At 24" you have 22 Str 4 kroot guns, and 7 str 6 Plasma shots, 2 of which you have to choose between shooting your missile pods or the plasma rifle, and 2 warfish SMS systems

I have 40 Kroot guns, 9 Plasma shots that I always get my missle pods with, and 2 SMS systems.

At 18" you have 24 str 5 BS 4, and with drones disengaged, 16 Str 5 BS 2 t/l

I have 12 str 5 BS 4, and 8 Str 5 BS 2 t/l, and an AFP for hordes

At 12" you have 8 BS4 meltas, that may not all show up until turn 3 and are in an open topped vehicle squad, an extra 22 kroot guns, and 7 more plasma shots which you don't get to fire 4 missiles in order to take advantage of

I have 4 meltas an extra 40 kroot shots and 9 more plasma shots, none of which I have to sacrifice a single missile pod for.

/

In the end it seems like we have volume vs accuracy and delivery system. I think piranhas are too frail to be an effective delivery system for anything other than a suicide mission and with almost 700 points spent on them, I don't think you'll ever make your buck back.

My railguns have never let me down in their ability to lay down the hurt on vehicles at range and while a single railhead shot may not be great for killing land raiders, it's there more for an AV 13 hull to jump out from behind and help with hordes. The broadsides deal with land raiders.

When it comes to real gameplay how many rhinos are there that actually contain something more important than a tac squad? If it's wolves probably 1 or 2 which makes everything much less a priority.

I feel like I'm rambling now

What piranhas do that broadsides can't is block movement, what broadsides do that piranhas can't is reach out and touch something from turn 1 almost no matter what. They both have their place but to intentionally exclude one as a theme and call it competitive isn't correct.

Markerlights are the most unique part of the tau army, pathfinders are vulnerable to a lot of things but as far as valuable assets on the field I would like all of my army to have a very good reason to be shot at and no clear weapon to use on them if possible. Pathfinders/crisis suits/Kroot compete for anti-infantry, broadsides/hammerhead/crisis suits/devilfish/piranha compete for anti-tank. There's no great place to put your shots against my army, where as yours has 2 squads of piranha for it's best tank killing ability, and it can't even kill a tank on turn 1 without being in severe danger of being shot to pieces.

I don't like the idea of dakka preds being that dangerous to a key piece of my army personally.

Feel free to ignore the upper half of this post, I'm awfully tired lol, but I think I have something of a point buried in the lower part of this post.

i really like the idea of this list. my friend has a similar one with a ton of pathfinders thou and i think one unit of stealth suits and broadsides? i dont play tau so cant be sure. his army gets messed up thou cuz it isn't as focused as this one and my IG vet army tends to give him trouble. it's a really fun army to play against thou.

like the list a lot!

MrDrumMachine wrote:
There's no great place to put your shots against my army, where as yours has 2 squads of piranha for it's best tank killing ability, and it can't even kill a tank on turn 1 without being in severe danger of being shot to pieces.

I feel this is the crux of the matter, 2 short ranged glass hammer units are not a reliable source for primary antitank. In regards to destroying Landraiders, holding you Piranhas off the table isn't the solution, by letting the LR's advance freely into your deployment zone you not only let the LR fulfill its primary function undisputed (that of super unit delivery system), but you also sacrifice the initiative because when you do come on- hopfully when you want to come on- you opponent will already control your deployment zone, as well as their own. I'm also not buying into the idea of the opponents backline been easy to over run for you either, kroot are great units no doubt, but they aren't going to sweep any backline defense; too many things can simply out fight them or lock them down like a walker and they casn even be blocked with vehicles. Or do you plan on using units other then kroot to land in your opponents backfield, Suits and the like, because that brings its own long set of cons?

[interrupting, sorry]

@ everyone, especially FF:
You've seen my little commentary on Kroot. I'm currently wracking my brains as to a competent use of Aun'va, and I will repost here when I find one, or at least something which plays around with him a little more than expected.
Sorry, backing away now.
[/interruption]

MrDrumMachine wrote:Last I checked having roughly half of my force mechanized made it a hybrid rather than a gunline

Broadsides are slow indeed, but I don't really care considering they can shoot almost corner to corner and side/rear armor shots doesn't matter nearly as much with str 10 as it does for str 7 and 8.

Where you're getting the idea that you have more firepower than me is really confusing. More accurate? Maybe, to an extent, but certainly not more.



At 48"+ you have 9 str 7 ap3(I hit with 7 on average)

I have 5 str 10 ap 1 that _ just as accurate. Agreed* edit(you hit with 3-4 on average)

At 36" you have 20 str 7 AP4 with 2 as BS 4(twin linked) or 14 t/l BS 3 and 4 with just BS3(2 twin linked BS4, 14 BS3 twin linked, 4 BS3)(I hit with 14-15)

I have 24*edit str 7 ap4 with 2 BS 5, 4 T/L(BS3) and 18* BS3, and 8 shots to act as force multipliers for the rest of my army (while useful not entirely necessary)(as well 8 shots only allocated to a single target, assuming you mean pathfinder markers)
(2 BS 5, 4 BS 3 Twin linked, 18 BS 3)(You hit with 15)

At 24" you have 22 Str 4 kroot guns, and 7 str 6 Plasma shots, 2 of which you have to choose between shooting your missile pods or the plasma rifle, and 2 warfish SMS systems. agreed*(I hit with 20-21)

I have 40 Kroot guns, 9 Plasma shots that I always get my missle pods with, and 2 SMS systems.agreed*(you hit with 31, 40 with MP)

At 18" you have 24 str 5 BS 4, and with drones disengaged, 16 Str 5 BS 2 t/l agreed*(I hit with 27)

I have 12 str 5 BS 4, and 8 Str 5 BS 2 t/l, and an AFP for hordes agreed*(you hit with 12-13, max 5 more with AFP)

At 12" you have 8 BS4 meltas, that may not all show up until turn 3 and are in an open topped vehicle squad(once again not arguable as it depends on the scenario, an extra 22 kroot guns, and 7 more plasma shots edit agreed*
(I hit with 22 Kroot, 8 plasma, 6 melta, 36 total, with 7 more missle 43 total)

I have 4 meltas an extra 40 kroot shots and 9 more plasma shots, none of which I have to sacrifice a single missile pod for. agreed* (you hit with 40 kroot, 9 plasma, 3 melta, and 9 missile, 61 total)
Pure volume of fire, according to your chart:
I have more at 48" plus
We tie at 36"
You have more at 24"
I have more at 18"
you have more at 12"
We wont even count the two measily flamethrowers I have, or CC capabilities. So, apparently, we both own two ranges, and tie one...
/

In the end it seems like we have volume vs accuracy and delivery system. I think piranhas are too frail to be an effective delivery system for anything other than a suicide mission and with almost 700 points spent on them, I don't think you'll ever make your buck back.

My railguns have never let me down in their ability to lay down the hurt on vehicles at range and while a single railhead shot may not be great for killing land raiders, it's there more for an AV 13 hull to jump out from behind and help with hordes. The broadsides deal with land raiders.

When it comes to real gameplay how many rhinos are there that actually contain something more important than a tac squad? If it's wolves probably 1 or 2 which makes everything much less a priority.

I feel like I'm rambling now

What piranhas do that broadsides can't is block movement, what broadsides do that piranhas can't is reach out and touch something from turn 1 almost no matter what. They both have their place but to intentionally exclude one as a theme and call it competitive isn't correct.(this is entirely an opinion and holds no basis of reasoning other than as a seperate way of thinking)

Markerlights are the most unique part of the tau army, pathfinders are vulnerable to a lot of things but as far as valuable assets on the field I would like all of my army to have a very good reason to be shot at and no clear weapon to use on them if possible. Pathfinders/crisis suits/Kroot compete for anti-infantry, broadsides/hammerhead/crisis suits/devilfish/piranha compete for anti-tank. There's no great place to put your shots against my army, where as yours has 2 squads of piranha for it's best tank killing ability, and it can't even kill a tank on turn 1 without being in severe danger of being shot to pieces. (Ok, first target priority according to your logic is the same as mine Piranhas, HH, devilfish, crisis suits and occasionally fire warriors competing for anti tank, where as three of those units can adapt either role easily, and once again, kroot, HH, devilfish, crisis suits all compete for anti infantry. If anyone is serious about facing you, then there are 3 priority targets: Pathfinders, Broadsides and Hammerhead in that order. If the first two are gone, then reliable antitank is hard to come by. AS per your theory with my piranhas, what in my army isn't capable of killing all of the 3 tanks you have? You kill things, I kill things, is there any point in arguing that?)

I don't like the idea of dakka preds being that dangerous to a key piece of my army personally. (Ill say it again, if hes focusing on one thing, its not the other, a dakka pred with 8 shots, 6 S5, 2 S7, will hit with 4-5 S5, which need 6s on front armor to glance, 5s and 6s otherwise, and hits with both S7, one S7 gets autosaved (DP) and 2-3 S5 shots are autosaved. I fail to see how that is DRASTICALLY THREATENING...)

Feel free to ignore the upper half of this post, I'm awfully tired lol, but I think I have something of a point buried in the lower part of this post.

SO in the end, that proves that neither side provides superior PURE VOLUME of fire, quality changes at different range, I have more reliable range, you slaughter things, particularly light-heavy infantry at close range. Granted I still think that if your kroot units are screens, they are not going to last very long in 10 man cells, even with cover saves, you lose 3 men, you roll leadership which is now at 6(?), your chances of failing are high, there is one unit gone. My kroot units must suffer 7 wounds before a LD test is needed.

You claimed my list would not be able to handle the space wolf list you mentioned, how would yours handle it? As far as I see, your only real way of killing thunder wolf cavalry is your crisis suits, which need to be within charge range to even be effective... Defense?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Foldalot wrote:

MrDrumMachine wrote:
There's no great place to put your shots against my army, where as yours has 2 squads of piranha for it's best tank killing ability, and it can't even kill a tank on turn 1 without being in severe danger of being shot to pieces.

I feel this is the crux of the matter, 2 short ranged glass hammer units are not a reliable source for primary antitank. In regards to destroying Landraiders, holding you Piranhas off the table isn't the solution, by letting the LR's advance freely into your deployment zone you not only let the LR fulfill its primary function undisputed (that of super unit delivery system), but you also sacrifice the initiative because when you do come on- hopfully when you want to come on- you opponent will already control your deployment zone, as well as their own. I'm also not buying into the idea of the opponents backline been easy to over run for you either, kroot are great units no doubt, but they aren't going to sweep any backline defense; too many things can simply out fight them or lock them down like a walker and they casn even be blocked with vehicles. Or do you plan on using units other then kroot to land in your opponents backfield, Suits and the like, because that brings its own long set of cons?

his list has 3 tanks! and only 3 units that can reliably take down tanks, 1 of which isn't that hard to dispatch, nor reliable(single HH) and the other two, are extremely vulnerable to any outflank, dedicated fire, or podding armies. Ion heads are nearly as effective as deathrains at killing medium to light tanks and have double the range! The piranhas are in no way the primary tank killers, they are there to kill high priority heavy infantry, screen, and kill av14 with some reliabilty...

Ok, obviously people aren't reading everything...RESERVING PIRANHAS IS STRICTLY A STRATEGY ACCORDING TO THE SCENARIO, there I think it can be seen now, I never said I would always reserve them, only when the mission calls for it, and if the enemy has only one or even 2! Landraiders, of course I would deploy them.

AS regards to deep strikers, and outflankers in this list, I would never balls to the wall kroot in an opponents backfield, unless there were suitable juicy targets such as stationary, or combat speed tanks with High front armor(Leman Russes), artillery, heavy support like long fangs, etc. Suits I RARELY deepstrike, as majority of the time, they are better suited shooting as long as they possibly can.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gameandwatch wrote:
What piranhas do that broadsides can't is block movement, what broadsides do that piranhas can't is reach out and touch something from turn 1 almost no matter what. They both have their place but to intentionally exclude one as a theme and call it competitive isn't correct.(this is entirely an opinion and holds no basis of reasoning other than as a seperate way of thinking)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Foldalot wrote:
I feel this is the crux of the matter, 2 short ranged glass hammer units are not a reliable source for primary antitank. In regards to destroying Landraiders, holding you Piranhas off the table isn't the solution, by letting the LR's advance freely into your deployment zone you not only let the LR fulfill its primary function undisputed (that of super unit delivery system), but you also sacrifice the initiative because when you do come on- hopfully when you want to come on- you opponent will already control your deployment zone, as well as their own. I'm also not buying into the idea of the opponents backline been easy to over run for you either, kroot are great units no doubt, but they aren't going to sweep any backline defense; too many things can simply out fight them or lock them down like a walker and they casn even be blocked with vehicles. Or do you plan on using units other then kroot to land in your opponents backfield, Suits and the like, because that brings its own long set of cons?

his list has 3 tanks! and only 3 units that can reliably take down tanks, 1 of which isn't that hard to dispatch, nor reliable(single HH) and the other two, are extremely vulnerable to any outflank, dedicated fire, or podding armies. Ion heads are nearly as effective as deathrains at killing medium to light tanks and have double the range! The piranhas are in no way the primary tank killers, they are there to kill high priority heavy infantry, screen, and kill av14 with some reliabilty...

Ok, obviously people aren't reading everything...RESERVING PIRANHAS IS STRICTLY A STRATEGY ACCORDING TO THE SCENARIO, there I think it can be seen now, I never said I would always reserve them, only when the mission calls for it, and if the enemy has only one or even 2! Landraiders, of course I would deploy them.

AS regards to deep strikers, and outflankers in this list, I would never balls to the wall kroot in an opponents backfield, unless there were suitable juicy targets such as stationary, or combat speed tanks with High front armor(Leman Russes), artillery, heavy support like long fangs, etc. Suits I RARELY deepstrike, as majority of the time, they are better suited shooting as long as they possibly can.

"His list"? Lol, I'm not offering advice on how to tailer a list to one oppponent (who apparently uses 3 tanks at 2500 pts?), I'm worried about what happens to your army when you meet any type of truly mechanized army, that means lots of AV 14 vehicles and a very large number of AV 11/12 vehicles, I am well aware of the power of MP's but they are only really effective at all against light transports, it is not uncommon to see lists containing 3-4 LR's in them for Ard boyz and for that you need more powerful weaponry.

The highest strength gun in your list besides the Fusion guns is only 7, this makes your melta weaponry your only reliable antitank, yes Ion heads are great but sometimes you need to penetrate that AV 13 vehicle, and sometimes you want to be penetrating a chimera on more than a 6+. Enter the Railgun.

FYI I have read the whole thread (a few times actually), and in an earlier post you said you would almost always hold off the Piranhas from the board if they had Land Raiders. It's hard to have a discussion with you if you keep contradicting yourself. Heres what you said by the way: "Oh, I almost forgot, someone had also mentioned something about people holding landraiders back, until the serious anti raider ordinance is removed. Well, a few things, first, the piranhas are off the board to begin with in almost all scenarios."

If you take away only one thing from this entire thread Gameandwatch, then please let it be this. In the same way Tau armies are weakened by an over reliance on Railguns they are also weakened dramatically by an over reliance on melta weaponry. The best solution is obviously to use a combination of both Fusion and Railgun platforms. At 2500 there is easily enough room to have both.

(I understand this is simple a theoretical list, but it still can be discussed in a competetive light.)

I couldn't agree more, I just get a little bummed when people jump right in and say "nope,won't work" Or, "my list will beat this into the floor no problem" and never explain their reasonings for either situation.

I dont want this to become a competition between lists, I honestly never even expected this list to be that overall competitive, I just defended it to the best of my ability, as I am its creator, if this forces me to play devils advocate, then I will.

A mix of both is fine, and your experience with certain units may be piss poor, where as others may have great experiences, but in the end I just wanted to have fun with a funky idea, and see if I could push it even further, without making it into a total fail list.

I am not going to even begin to argue he said she said, nor start to discuss absolutes in conversation, its not worth our time to debate exactly who said what. But you even point out that I implied I would ALMOST always hold the piranhas back. And instead of arguing if I said this, I will explain why I said this.

Being one of the few serious High armor value killer units in this list, piranhas are a precious commodity, I could hold them on the board from the start, but in doing so this immediately makes them vulnerable. Disruption pods, though invaluable can only extend so far with regards to protection. Therefore, when I see ABSOLUTE potential threats to my piranhas, before I am able to respond, then I will choose not to deploy them, it simply isn't worth the risk to hope they survive a bombardment.

ANother reason I would want landraiders rushing me as fast as possible. This helps specifically my style and tactics, in that I almost always(save pitched battles) Try to entirely dominate up a single flank. In many scnearios, the enemy commander will choose to either cram many units towards the center, or spread out a great deal in an effort to overwhelm the board. As tau has few precious units at its disposal, I force a single flank with close to all of my units, all at once, and hit the flank with overwhelming force, almost guaranteeing that by the time my shooting phase has finished, in most scenarios that entire flank of the enemy force is decimated.

Now dominating a side has two distinct advantages:
The first of these advantages, is that as long as you hug the side edge, you have no fear of flankers coming from that side. In the same happenstance, your own units can safetly reinforce, specifically kroot, right to where your main force is located.

The second distinct advantage to this is you really take advantage of the footprint most enemy armies have these days. With such a large amount of mech out there, the average amuont of terrain on a board completely funnels the enemy army down the skinny side of the board in order to engage you. THis forces him to go around his own units, get stuck at choke points, or be forced to take the long way round. Having a side edge also has another occasional advantage, in that your long ranged units will now have complete line of site down the enemies deployment zone.

Now comes the reason why you reserve those piranhas:
Forcing the enemy down a refused flank means that his LRaiders, Which are usually parked close to the center to dump their deadly contents on your face as close as possible, now have to turn and essentially roadblock the rest of the army furthest away from the edge you dominate in order to get into the action. On come the piranhas from your table edge straight into the side armor of all the enemy tanks roarin towarsds your main force. There was one time I recall that I did this strategy, and because of where my opponent decided to push his landraider, he was forced to turn and pursue directly along my table edge. This had an amazing effect, I was able to bring the piranhas on, completely surround his raider with drones, and destroy it forcing his now footslogging killer death unit to first engage a pointless group of drones in order to even pursue my army. With his meg point sink unit gone, I could pick apart everything else he had, at my disgression.

This was a bit of a long tutorial, but I hope you all get the idea of why this list would play to my strengths and overall tactics....

Yeah, absolutely. Holding Piranhas off table has a lot of advantages, but I suppose the leargest reason to not start with them off the table is to utilise them as a blocking unit, or to increase their immediate threat radius, ofcourse this needs to be assessed on a case by case basis, and I think that the available terrain will play a large(r than average) role in your decision making too.

(Glad to see we have found some common ground lol )

If you ask me, "Do I think the 0 Railgun lists are going to dominate?". I'd have to say doubtful.

If you ask, "Have these lists helped change how some some players create their list and have reduced the dependence upon the Railgun? Most definitely yes.

I know of 2-3 very experienced Tau players that are now running a hybrid of this type of list that have a maxed squad of Broadsides, 2 Ionheads, and Fusion Blasters throughout the list.

Will I keep running my version of the list? Yeah for a good bit longer because my version of the list orks really well for my playstyle by allowing me to be extremely versatile in deployment and highly mobile. Eventually, I will go back to rotating my lists to keep myself interested.

Yea good point, I do have one question though about the Ion Head (sorry for slight derailment). I have never been a fan of it, and indeed never even used it in my games (or even had it used against me) but what do you see it main strengths to be, and more importantly how do you see them working in a list with Crisis suits who are already packing MP's? From a purely theory based perspective I would see the Ionhead fulfilling a very similar role to any Crisis varient with MP but on a more expensive- and if taken in small numbers, vulnerable- platform. The increased AP is nice, but how useful is it really? Do you find that it forces your opponent to stick to cover more, and therefore allow you to control the board better?

In my opinion I want 3 staple weapon types to be part of my antitank. I want long range power, I want short range power, and I want weight of fire. For the first two the choice seems pretty apparent (Broadsides/ Paranhas) but for the third I am unsure whether Ion heads or crisis Suits would work best, and what type of crisis suit-fusion blaster, twin MP, PR/MP?

My opinion on this comparison is pretty jaded against all options excpet the twinlinked MP or single MP versions of the Crisis suits; what are your thoughts, Focused Fire?

Foldalot wrote:Yea good point, I do have one question though about the Ion Head (sorry for slight derailment). I have never been a fan of it, and indeed never even used it in my games (or even had it used against me) but what do you see it main strengths to be, and more importantly how do you see them working in a list with Crisis suits who are already packing MP's? From a purely theory based perspective I would see the Ionhead fulfilling a very similar role to any Crisis varient with MP but on a more expensive- and if taken in small numbers, vulnerable- platform. The increased AP is nice, but how useful is it really? Do you find that it forces your opponent to stick to cover more, and therefore allow you to control the board better?

In my opinion I want 3 staple weapon types to be part of my antitank. I want long range power, I want short range power, and I want weight of fire. For the first two the choice seems pretty apparent (Broadsides/ Paranhas) but for the third I am unsure whether Ion heads or crisis Suits would work best, and what type of crisis suit-fusion blaster, twin MP, PR/MP?

My opinion on this comparison is pretty jaded against all options excpet the twinlinked MP or single MP versions of the Crisis suits; what are your thoughts, Focused Fire?

The Ionheads are more durable multi role units(Not suceptable to insta death and less vulnerable to ordinance). They are great anti-MEQ and anti-MC weapons that are also superior to MP's as anti-light vehicle units due to their greater range. The Ionheads ability to cross shoot the majority of the length of the board gives them a natural edge when looking for side shots on chimeras and can deal with Land Speeders before they get into range to do damage. The vehicles height, also, gives it superior LoS and reduces dependence on markerlights because it doesn't shoot through as many units.

In a list that has some MP's they provide addition punch that has greater flexibility. Look at the criteria you ask for in you anti-tank and you will find that the Ionheads clearly fills two of the three and could be argued that it works well in close.

Now a negative is of the Ionheads is also listed above as one of its positives. That is its being a vehicle. The reason broadsides are not walkers is that their RoF would be cut noticeably by crew shaken/stunned results. When running any vehicle, plan accordingly for this.

What many percieve as a weakness in this type of list is the reliance upon Fusion Basters as a primary source of AT. I've found this to be no problem. Between tons of cover saves and smoke launchers, the first two rounds of shooting(Where the Tau are supposed to dominate) have been neutered forcing a disproportionate amount of points to be invested in a non-mobile unit that does no damage itself(Pathfinders). Fusion Blasters do not depend on the markers as much. This type of build uses both Kaunyon and Mont'ka in that you let your opponent do what he wants(get closer) while weakening a section of his line, then ambush the critical weakened portion of their line with a focused strike to break through.

This strike can be a reserves strike, or I could have the piranha on the table. I sometimes hide the piranha behind Hammerheads/terrain and sometimes they are out in front. Depends on the list I'm facing. The thing is that when in range the Fusion Blasters are superior to the railgun and because the majority of armies charge forward, getting into range is not that difficult. When used like this they bring weight of fire in a precision strike. From your list of priorities I can see the difference in our play style. My list would have included flexible firepower and the abilty for precision strikes. Niether set of priorities is necessarily superior, just different.

As to the overall worth of the Ion heads, I have yet to have an opponents say after the match,"you should have taken railguns".

Cant help but agree on all counts, and to add FF, I think it needs to be pointed out the majority of a particular list one faces these days, and that list is mech guard. Mech guard has the capability to field upwards of 15 tanks at this point level, most of which are chimeras and because of this explosion in light to mid level vehicles, more and more light armor killers are becoming neccesary.

Even with space wolves, and the new blood angels, the average lists field no more than 3 and more often than not, no more than 2 Landraiders, but an exorbitant amount of rhinos.

For these reasons, Ion Heads are potentially EXTREMELY hazardous, in that not only do they rip open light vehicles, but almost all things in side have no armor save against an ion cannon. Though non actual CC based, IG will still make an attempt to rush the opponent under masses of chimeras and vets in order to get all of those plasma, melta and flamer weapons into range. This means you absolutely cant afford to devote more than 2 units at a single tank per turn, and can't afford to have a single railshot miss.

I as well, have gotten more" who knew ion heads were so good" comparitively to "Man you need to make those railheads" other than by people who say that before the match starts!~

They are some very interesting points on the Ionhead, to be honest I had overlooked their great advantage over regular MP's in regards to monstrous creatures, although I still prefer the more vulnerable but more efficient crisis mounted MP's I can see now the extra range and AP of the Ionhead would add a new layer of dynamics for the Tau. My problem with Ionheads (and Railheads for that matter) though really lies with their slot use, as its hard to bring a decent number of hammerheads in higher points games as I still believe that Broadsides are needed (I've already expressed my thoughts on why ad nauseum). I suppose at 1750, maybe even at 1850 points and less I would be quite comfortable using 2 Ionheads and a team of broadsides as my heavy support, and flinging a few meltaguns in the mix in the other slots, maybe even in place of PR/MP crisis suits.

I remain confident though that if Ionheads are to be taken, a team of broadsides should also be taken as the Tau need the ability to threaten heavy armour from great range as soon as the game starts.

AS I mentioned in the beginning, I LOVE suits in general, I have custom made broadsides, and woud never fail to use them. I made the initial list using what my friend had immediately available, which funny enough, even with 3000 total points of Tau, not one completed broadside. If I used my stuff, I would probably simply take out one ionhead, and however many piranhas needed to field a 3 man broadside team, then mash whatever other piranhas fit into a single large unit. Now that I think about it, With a 5 unit Piranha group, and x 3 broadsides, I would probably have enough for a bunch more kroot, which is alwayas a good thing... I wish I could have entered Ard boys, but not having your army on hand kinda cancels that idea haha

Foldalot wrote:They are some very interesting points on the Ionhead, to be honest I had overlooked their great advantage over regular MP's in regards to monstrous creatures, although I still prefer the more vulnerable but more efficient crisis mounted MP's I can see now the extra range and AP of the Ionhead would add a new layer of dynamics for the Tau. My problem with Ionheads (and Railheads for that matter) though really lies with their slot use, as its hard to bring a decent number of hammerheads in higher points games as I still believe that Broadsides are needed (I've already expressed my thoughts on why ad nauseum). I suppose at 1750, maybe even at 1850 points and less I would be quite comfortable using 2 Ionheads and a team of broadsides as my heavy support, and flinging a few meltaguns in the mix in the other slots, maybe even in place of PR/MP crisis suits.

I remain confident though that if Ionheads are to be taken, a team of broadsides should also be taken as the Tau need the ability to threaten heavy armour from great range as soon as the game starts.

I won't argue that the Ionheads may be more effective at the normal tourney points settings. I think that most agree that the Tau start to struggle after 1850-2000 points.
There is one last thing/"dynamic" I'd like to point out about Ionheads though.

Take 3 transports full of SM's. Pop them with broadsides, "What do you have left to clean up with?". The miss pods are much better anti-tank than Anti-meq.

Now pop these same transposrts with fusion blasters. What happens to the SM's when the Ion Heads open up on them?

If the transport contains termies then Pop the Tank with whatever is most efficient. Then use the extra Fire Warriors you bought with the points saved in the HS section to start whittling them down with VoF from small arms.

The dynamics of these types of lists makes for an army that is much more fun to play, but this is purely IMO.

I get a grin everytime I think of what 2-3 Ionheads do to an SM Squad.