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Stormrider wrote:I don't expect it to sweep away Terminators or even MEQ's, but in a pinch, they can get the job done by beating the averages.

You do realize that you're saying that you don't expect it to do anything unless you're lucky with it. You'd be surprised what you can do with godlike luck and lasguns, but a big majority of the time, we're not lucky. That's sort of why it's called luck: it deviates from what is expected.

Why take a vehicle that only does well in circumstances you DON'T expect?

Stormrider wrote:When I can have 27 shots from the Punisher in one turn (HB's and LC) + 14 from my Chimera (which has a Multilaser, Heavy Stubber and Heavy Bolter+ the guys inside) = I don't see many things surviving a torrent like that, cover saves and good armor saves or not.

If you don't see things surviving, it's because you're not looking at the math. I mean, a PIS also puts down 27 shots a turn with orders, and I KNOW that lots of things can still survive a torrent that.

If you're going to base your understanding of things based on numbers, you have to base them off of ALL of the numbers (including wounds and saves, etc.) not just one number (the number of shots).

Stormrider wrote:And if the Punisher cannon gets torn off, I still have an LC for opportunistic tank hunting.

So it's cool to spend 250 points on a single lascannon? The hull weapon does make the tank less bad, but it doesn't make it awe inspiring.

Stormrider wrote:Something I am seeing a lot of is people are underestimating this tank.

That's because we're basing our estimations on the average amount of damage that the tank does. As such, we're actually doing a fairly decent job estimating this tank. If anything, it appears that you're overestimating it.

As it is, it's unpopular due to its crappy damage output (especially it's crappy damage:points cost ratio). If there was something else, perhaps, like it was scoring or could always outflank, or something non-damage-based to counteract it's crappy damage (as in the case with PISs), we might hold it in higher esteem. Saying "it's great if you roll LOTS of 6's" isn't terribly convincing as not only is ANYTHING going to be good in those circumstances (as such, how can we really judge?) and those circumstances are so unlikely, that it's not really useful.

Lasguns fired by guardsmen, actually, require 40 shots to kill a termie. So you need 133 guardsmen FRFSRF-ing to kill 10. You gotta admit, that's quite bad, and frankly a punisher would do better. But it still seems awful.

felixthecat345 wrote:Lasguns fired by guardsmen, actually, require 40 shots to kill a termie. So you need 133 guardsmen FRFSRF-ing to kill 10. You gotta admit, that's quite bad, and frankly a punisher would do better. But it still seems awful.

Lets explore this idea.

A punisher with heavy bolter sponsons costs what... 210 points?

That's 4 squads of guardsmen, or 40 guys.

The punisher puts out 29 shots, 15 str 5 hits, so 10 str 5 wounds, so about 2 dead terminators with a round of shooting.

At >12 inches, the guardsmen put out 40 shots, 20 hits, 6 wounds, and a dead terminator.

If they benefit from the FRFSRF order, then that's 80 shots, 40 hits, 13ish wounds, and 2 dead terminators.

If they're within 12" without the order, it is the same 2 dead terminators.

If they're within 12" and have the order, then it's 120 shots, 60 hits, 20 wounds, and likely 3 dead terminators.

So, the guardsmen have better terminator-killing power, but only up close.

die post!

I love the Paskisher its great for tournies where you expect to see nids and lash princes. I never left home without it. 13 wounds mister dp

Lol, quadruple post

You don't see that every day...
Personally, If I went up against the guard I would much rather see a Punisher than equivalent points of something else. The other Russ variants seem much scarier.

My friend with a punisher killed my hive tyrant and a fex.

I bet that was due to lucky rolling.

Punishers are pretty terribad. Ineffective against vehicles and not all that effective at killing troops and to top it off has short range of 24.

Manticore does a better job at anti tank and anti infantry for less points but you miss your AV14.

If you insist on getting a Russ variant look at the Leman Russ Executioner with Plasma Sponsons for 5 plasma cannon blasts. People complain about obliterator units with 3 plasma cannons this tank has 5.

Leman Russ Demolisher also is pretty good with the strength 10 ap2 blast but the one blast can get a bad scatter but it is effective against most things but short ranged.

Well, out of three games. My Punisher accounted for about 800 points of enemies. It did it's best work against a flying hive tyrant with regeneration.



I never said the tank was perfect. And since most of you guys don't like it, don't worry about it. You don't have to run the thing.

I have spend alot of time working out the odds on the punisher and umm'ing and arring about it and i am still not sure about this tank, i have decided that:

A. forget it without pask, especially if your gunning for MC's.
B. always run 3 HB's and a pincle HS. to get the 32 shots.

All this aimed at a squad of regular space marines and you get 4.63 kills per turn firing all weapons on average,

shooting at a squad of guardsmen out of cover and its 13.30 kills per turn on average.

So basically it is good to take if your facing hordes of light infantry that are running straight at you and MC's that need to die. people are right though when they say its limited, in that its limited to killing light infantry and MC's where as the demolisher can kill just about everything at the same range. probably worth taking against nids???

felixthecat345 wrote:I bet that was due to lucky rolling.

Isn't that true with everything? Regardless of how strong or weak the gun is? If you roll a lot of ones with a really expensive units that only get one shot, you're actually worse off than with a slightly expensive unit tht has 30 shots or more.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Throw in Pask and its an 'OK' tank. Without him it just isn't that good at all.

L. Wrex

Right, but at that point it is so expensive as to be a moronic purchase. The same points as a naked Punisher with Pask gets you an Executioner with plasma sponsons. And if I was sticking Pask in a tank, I'd look towards the Exterminator first, where the same amount of points give you 4 TL BS4 S7 shots, 9 BS4 S5 shots, and 3 BS4 S4 shots (all with +1 to armor penetration and re-rolling wounds against monstrous creatures).

Stormrider wrote:Well, out of three games. My Punisher accounted for about 800 points of enemies. It did it's best work against a flying hive tyrant with regeneration.

Out of a 3-game 2,000 pt tournament, my sponson-ed Executioner accounted for a little over 1,000 points' worth of enemy units, and in one of those matches were against Dark Eldar who destroyed it after it swatted a single Raider. So really about 925 points' worth of units in 2 games. The Punisher, especially with Pask, simply doesn't give me the same return on my investment as other Russ variants.

willydstyle wrote:I agree that the punisher is not worth its points cost. I don't think the "OMG 20 AC shots is something GW would never allow" was kind of a funny argument

Bear in mind that lootaz are Bs2, get random shots so could be getting only 10 for a whole game (happens sometimes) and are 6+ armour saves with ld7. Target them with anything decent and they break and run. The proposed heavy 20 autocannon would be Bs3 (possibly 4) on an Av14/13/11 platform always has 20 shots, can move and fire, is fearless and can grab extra guns too.

Not that lootaz aren't amazing troops but they have enough drawbacks that they're balanced, I don't know how balanced that proposed turret would be until we're talking upwards of a landraider costs.

I never play my IG without my Frank Castle.

Oh wait, you mean the tank? No good IMO, there is plenty that does anti-horde better than a Punisher.

Lootas, on average, are going to get 30 shots and 10 hits. Yes, there's some games where they get 15 every single time, and there's others where they get 45.

A 20 shot, BS3 autocannon would also average 10 hits. More reliable lower range, but no potential for 21+.

Lootas are also fearless, and can never be killed by a single meltagun hit. If it was ever necessary, Lootas could assault up to 18" and reliably beat to death half a dozen Marines on an objective, something a tank could never do.

I understand what you're saying, but on the basis of firepower, a Hvy 20 AC tank is not beyond the realm of balance.

Also from the perspective of somebody who plays hordes I'd much rather see the punisher staring down at me than the demolisher, battlecannon, executioner or exterminator.

Playing against an IG player recently his 2! Punishers managed to bag about 12 orks between them over a 6 turn game. With the various tricks and tactics ork players use to get cover saves its usually just bounces off. If he were ever to manage to catch me in the open then he has me dead to rights but if I'm playing well then he isn't catching me in the open.

Maybe against Nids who don't have as much cover generating equipment it would be worth it but against orks, not a good tank.

Stormrider wrote:Well, out of three games. My Punisher accounted for about 800 points of enemies. It did it's best work against a flying hive tyrant with regeneration.



I never said the tank was perfect. And since most of you guys don't like it, don't worry about it. You don't have to run the thing.

Now you don't worry either. We won't.

I'm no guard player but in all the games I've seen they consistently fail to make back their points and the better players don't even use them, if that helps.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'm no guard player but in all the games I've seen they consistently fail to make back their points and the better players don't even use them, if that helps.

I don't place value on a unit based on their ability to 'get their points back' in a game, though that would be nice.

If that were the case, I would never use my TCav. Their value goes beyond getting their points back for my list.

imweasel wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'm no guard player but in all the games I've seen they consistently fail to make back their points and the better players don't even use them, if that helps.

I don't place value on a unit based on their ability to 'get their points back' in a game, though that would be nice.

If that were the case, I would never use my TCav. Their value goes beyond getting their points back for my list.

You TCav don't kill their own pts worth? you must have some dreadful luck, those things are insanely killy.

I don't think that the Punisher would be quite so bad if it had an AP value. Even AP4 would be good, but the lack of an AP truely hamstrings it and makes it clearly not worth the points.

headrattle wrote:I don't think that the Punisher would be quite so bad if it had an AP value. Even AP4 would be good, but the lack of an AP truely hamstrings it and makes it clearly not worth the points.

If it did, there would be a bunch of threads complaining how broken it is.

...? AP4 does nothing against Marines or their equivalent, and against horde, bounces off of the cover saves that bravelybravesirrobin mentioned.

It doesn't have to be AP4. I'd be happy with just AP6, so it doesn't suffer -1 to damage rolls against vehicles. 29 BS4 S6 shots with Pask would make a mess of many a transport.

I'm surprised that they didn't make it a hopped up version of the Assault Cannon.

O'Blessed Emperor, NO.

an assault 20 rending weapon would be wrong, Expensive, and OP.

felixthecat345 wrote:
And a standard russ (3 hbs, 1 BC)

BC:
About 6 hits
5 wounds
5 dead

Plus 3 hbs:
5 hits
4 wounds
4 dead

A battlecannon doesn't average 6 hits - half the time it misses completely.