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I've used punishers once before and thought they were cool, but they only killed 1 termie from a squad of 10 due to the short range keeping it away from shooting his infantry so I never got to fully use one.

However, as with all suspiciously good-looking tanks i've mathhammered it, and this is the result:

Against a unit of 12 fire warriors:

Gatling cannon:
10 hits
7 wounds
3-4 dead

Plus 3 hbs:
5 hits
4 wounds
4 dead

And a standard russ (3 hbs, 1 BC)

BC:
About 6 hits
5 wounds
5 dead

Plus 3 hbs:
5 hits
4 wounds
4 dead

So a standard russ deals on average 10 casualties, while the punisher deals about 8-with 30 pts extra for a meer rear armor 11 and only a third of the range. Is it really worth it?

Throw in Pask and its an 'OK' tank. Without him it just isn't that good at all.

L. Wrex

As Lycaeus Wrex says, they are alright with Pask. I wouldn't choose one over an executioner or demolisher though

Yeah, the BS3, short range and no Ap value makes it very hard to believe that it costs more than a classic Russ. I suppose people go for it just because they think "omg omg, that thing has 20 shots, must buy etc etc", whereas if you want an infantry killer, you should go for the Exterminator with H. Bolters. It has double the range, is cheaper, twin-linked and actually has an Ap value.

Valk

Also, more embarressment for the punisher:

VS a 10 man termie squad:

10 hits
7 wounds
1 casualtie

And with a battle cannon:

About 6 hits
5 wounds
1/2 successful inv save (no armor due to ID)
3/4 dead

So a punisher really should cost about 130 pts, not that ridiculous 180

You still get a 2+ armor save against instant death from the battle cannon. It is AP 3.

Sargow wrote:You still get a 2+ armor save against instant death from the battle cannon. It is AP 3.

Sorry. My mistake. But the russ would still kill about an equal amount of termies, plus a cheaper demolisher would kill about 4.

Okay, I think there's something you might have missed. Those heavy bolter sponsons are doing as much damage as the tank's main cannon. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

I personally wouldn't get anywhere near a punisher in my list. You're spending a LOT of points for the tank with the second worst firepower of the lot, and you have to get into melta/assault-threatened range in order to use it. It's not Sparta, it's just madness.

Either take a tank with real firepower, or take PISs which do the same amount of damage, but are cheaper and scoring.

Oddly enough the only success I've heard about with Punishers is not against horde, but against MCs. The volume of shots and reasonable S value will force alot of wounds. This is particularly good against anything with an Inv save (like Greater Daemons) since AP doesn't matter anyway.

That being said, I think its far too narrow of a niche to warrant the tank, especially since that same role can be adequately covered by Autocannons or Multi-Lasers.

Punishers are awe-inspiring killers when Pask is running them. I've done the math before, and I'll do it again and post it later, but Pask can put enough wounds on MEQs to force allocation, killing about 4 Marines including a Special Weapon/Sarge/Heavy Weapon. He can actually tear appart AV10/11, and do fair damage to AV12, despite being AP-. It eats MCs and Hordes. It can kill TEQs. It kills regardless of cover.

The Punisher really should be renamed the Patheticer. Cause it really is pathetic. Against most vehicles the Punisher is totally useless with Strength 5 AP - unless you shooting av10 speeders or dark eldar. The 24 inch range of the main gun is terrible because your getting close to fast moving multi meltas and assaulters and you don't get the most out of your heavy bolters cause you need to move on up.

20 shots sounds cool on paper till you factor in BS3. You hit with 10. you need to wound and its strength 5 so against marines you wound on 3s so 7 wounds and then they fail 1/3 of the time so 2-3 kills.

The Punisher should have been like the Gattling Russ in the War50k video game. That had an Auto Cannon 20. 20 shot autocannon with the usual 48 range strength 7 ap4. That would have been worth the pts since you can shoot at light vehicles with it and it has an AP.

If your gonna blow 200+ pts on a Pask Punisher get an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons instead. That actually kills more and is effective against Marines and Terminators and you can shoot vehicles in a pinch.

Kirika wrote:The Punisher should have been like the Gattling Russ in the War50k video game. That had an Auto Cannon 20. 20 shot autocannon with the usual 48 range strength 7 ap4. That would have been worth the pts since you can shoot at light vehicles with it and it has an AP.

If your gonna blow 200+ pts on a Pask Punisher get an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons instead. That actually kills more and is effective against Marines and Terminators and you can shoot vehicles in a pinch.

A 20 shot Autocannon would be way overpowered, even by GW's standards.

But Executioners are the best choice here: While expendive at 230 points, they usually make up for thatg in what they can take out. I have two and I've had opponents bricking it just by placing them on the table!

Valk

DarkHound wrote:Punishers are awe-inspiring killers when Pask is running them. I've done the math before, and I'll do it again and post it later, but Pask can put enough wounds on MEQs to force allocation, killing about 4 Marines including a Special Weapon/Sarge/Heavy Weapon. He can actually tear appart AV10/11, and do fair damage to AV12, despite being AP-. It eats MCs and Hordes. It can kill TEQs. It kills regardless of cover.

What?

Firstly, against space marines a BS4 punisher puts about 3 wounds that stick. That's the same amount of damage as two squads FRFSRFing or a single plasma PCS. Furthermore, it only kills about 1.5 terminators or puts about 1 wound on an MC per round of firing. How is that "awe inspiring"?

Secondly, against vehicles it's still only S6. If by "fair damage", you mean that a pask punisher can't destroy AV12 until after it peels off all the weapons and treads and only destroys it through a technicality, then I guess you have a different definition of "fair" than I do.

Against AV10, yeah, a pask punisher can be splattastic. With sponsons, though, you're spending 250 points in order to take down 50 point transports. Not only are you going to be far from destroying a critical mass of transports in order to stop them before they drop off their cargo (which will kill you with meltaguns), but you have to kill an AV10 vehicle EVERY TURN in order to make it's points back. Given that the gun's range is only 24" and the tank has to remain immobile in order to get the bonus (making it highly susceptible to attack from melee units), I don't see this as very likely.

It doesn't eat MEq's, it doesn't thin hordes fast enough to make a difference, it's cruddy against both TEq's and MCs, and it's ineffective against medium armor and woefully points ineffective against lighter armor. Paying 250 points just to be bad against a lot of units? No thanks.

I mean, if it were turned into a heavy 20 autocannon it could actually kill stuff, but I can't even begin to imagine how expensive that one single vehicle would be.

As expensive as a unit of 10 lootas?

10 Lootas + AV14 I think would put the Gatling AC tank at around 300 points.

The punisher is junk. It needs a variety of 'fixes' to make it even worth taking. It should at least be twin-linked, or 36"+ range, or S6, or Rend, or just be cheaper.

Ironically, it's bad at killing hordes. The Punisher beats out other Russes against MCs without low armor saves or single models in cover.

I agree that the punisher is not worth its points cost. I don't think the "OMG 20 AC shots is something GW would never allow" was kind of a funny argument

Every time I have used the Punisher, I slaughter foot troops. It's not that the gun is overwhelming, it's the fact that you force rolls.

In the times I have rolled the heavy 20, I average 13 hits without Pask. With Pask, my average jumps to 15. Plus 2 Bolters and a lascannon, the tank does work.

I'll take my chances with it.

In terms of paper stats, the Punisher isn't worth it; the BS 3 and lack of any AP makes it an unreliable tank at best. However, I feel it's worth remembering that dice can be evil at times; one good round and you're looking at a lot of dead SM's. Not enough to justify it's alarming points cost, I know, but in my mind the luck factor makes it a great deal more than useless.
Personally, I'd go for the classic Russ. At least you know it's gun will make a mess of something at least 80% of the time.

sourclams wrote:
Ironically, it's bad at killing hordes. The Punisher beats out other Russes against MCs without low armor saves or single models in cover.

The reason is that you can beat the odds with more rolls, regardless of how tough the enemy is. Take your save, let the dice decide.

Rolling 1's always equals fail

Stormrider wrote:In the times I have rolled the heavy 20, I average...

Right, YOU average. How does it help us know the quality of a vehicle when we take it when we don't have the same luck as you?

Stormrider wrote:
The reason is that you can beat the odds with more rolls, regardless of how tough the enemy is. Take your save, let the dice decide.

Rolling 1's always equals fail

Likewise, yes, it is POSSIBLE for a punisher to kill 20 terminators in one fell swoop, whereas a regular russ could only at most kill like 10. In order for this to be true, you'd have to be unbelievably lucky and your opponent would have to be unbelievable unlucky (and breaking force org rules) in order for this to happen. Why talk about the possible when it's SO unlikely?

On average, a Punisher will kill about 3 marines. Meanwhile a russ will kill about 8 if they're not in cover and 4 if they are. Since this is by far closer to normal (rather than what if I hit with every shot and what if they fail every single armor save?), it is the most useful. As such, it's a clearly defensible position to say that a regular russ does the job better for cheaper, because in a huge majority of the times you actually shoot it, this will be true.

I mean, a squad of 10 dudes with lasguns CAN kill 10 terminators in a single turn, but that doesn't make lasguns the prime anti-terminator wepaon.

sourclams wrote:10 Lootas + AV14 I think would put the Gatling AC tank at around 300 points.

The punisher is junk. It needs a variety of 'fixes' to make it even worth taking. It should at least be twin-linked, or 36"+ range, or S6, or Rend, or just be cheaper.

300+ points for something that can only engage one target per turn? Those better be some pretty damned expensive transports that are being shot at.

And exactly. Any of those suggestions would make it less worse, but they'd probably need a few of them to make it worth taking. I mean, at LEAST they could have given it AP4 so it could have been good against hordes, or, as you say, rending, so that it could be a guard tank that's actually good against MC's, unlike the rest of the HS choices.

---

Heh, I just went into VDR and entered a vehicle with 14/13/12 with 20 autocannons. It came out to 630 points...

People are greatly overestimating the capabilities of large blasts in this thread.

If marines are in a double row of 5 guys exactly 2" apart, the large blast hits 4, if it hits. With BS3, large blasts have a significant chance to simply scatter entirely off the target.

Assuming the large blast hits the 4 marines outside of cover, it's most likely to kill 3, if it hits the 4 marines in cover it is most likely to kill 2.

Str 8 does not *always* wound and large blasts do not *always* hit.

Saying that a battle cannon is likely to hit 8 marines is the same as saying that the punisher is likely to hit all 20 times. Both events can heppen, but rarely do.

well, what's more likely, that you will roll 4+ 20 times in a row, or that marines are bunched up in cover?

Plus, when people spread their troops out, it makes them easier to hit.

And sure, tone down the russ a bit - you're still at something that does roughly the same amount of damage for much cheaper that can severely penalize your opponent for being stupid (and can force smart players to spread out, which is good if your strategy revolves around force concentration).

Stormrider wrote:Every time I have used the Punisher, I slaughter foot troops. It's not that the gun is overwhelming, it's the fact that you force rolls.

In the times I have rolled the heavy 20, I average 13 hits without Pask. With Pask, my average jumps to 15. Plus 2 Bolters and a lascannon, the tank does work.

I'll take my chances with it.

Just curious, is your advice for using any of the notorious 'weaker' choices to simply roll better than average? Yes, if a Punisher cannon reliably put 10 wounds on a squad of Marines I'd consider it as a viable choice. Since I'm stuck with the version that only does 6 or so, I'm a little less friendly to it.

Ailaros wrote:well, what's more likely, that you will roll 4+ 20 times in a row, or that marines are bunched up in cover?

Plus, when people spread their troops out, it makes them easier to hit..

It makes the unit easier to hit, that's undeniable, but the actual amount of models covered by the blast drops quite a bit when the models are spread out. Even so, I'd still go with ordnance, I'm simply pointing out that it has it's own set of flaws.

A little known fact about the punisher varient is that the creator was drunk as feth when he designed it. hey made 20, and it resulted in the imperium losing an entire solar system, and the designer was then shot because he had commited Heresy. Ruined a perfectly good tank and made it too expensive for any minor engagments.

The great thing about pie plate launching russ's is that they force hoards to spread out, thus reducing their manuverabiity and cc effectiveness.

willydstyle wrote:People are greatly overestimating the capabilities of large blasts in this thread.

I'm a fan of math-hammer but I agree that this is the single biggest problem for me, trying to accurately measure scatter with blasts and compare them to direct fire weapons.

if you are using punishers against terminators you are doing somthing wrong.


The punisher is meant to kill orks and nids and other things with bad saves.

minigun762 wrote:

willydstyle wrote:People are greatly overestimating the capabilities of large blasts in this thread.

I'm a fan of math-hammer but I agree that this is the single biggest problem for me, trying to accurately measure scatter with blasts and compare them to direct fire weapons.

I think if we evaluate the Punisher vs. other russ variants realistically, we find that it has about the same killing potential vs. infantry.

Why then, does the Punisher suck?

For one thing, despite having similar infantry killing abilities, it is considerably more expensive than the standard russ.

Also, it's short range really kills it.

Couple those facts with the reality that the tank has *no* anti-tank capabilities, unlike every other russ variant (maybe aside from the Eradicator), and you're left with an over-priced vehicle that really only serves one purpose: finishing off already-weakened units. Battlecannons and other blasts have a helluva time finishing off those last two marines in cover. Chuck 29 str 5 shots at them, however, and they're not going to be lasting long.

Is the tank worth its high price tag just for that capability? I don't think so.

So, while I agree with the above post, it IS possible to make a relatively okay guess as to a russ cannon damage. For example, we start with the fact that it hits 33% of the time. We continue with the fact that a 2 or 3 is also a hit, and that's a .44 to hit straight away.

Now, from there we would need to understand what's acceptable from there. Obviously the more spread out the opponent is, the better it will keep up the same amount of damage over a greater scatter. Conversely, if they're bunched up, it does more damage if it hits, but less damage if it misses. As such, we can look at an average dispersion (about 1", wouldn't you say?) and then add the disclaimer that if they're more spread out the damage stays more the same, and if they're more compact they are hurt more with a low scatter refactored by less damage with a high one (so it sort of evens out). Yeah, there's a lot of subjectivity, but it does do a decent guess of how many hits you make over many trials.

So we can then guess that when it hits, it will hit between 5 (maximum dispersion) and 9 (minimum dispersion). Now, there is a range, but there is a range for all weapons. All weapons could hit with all shots and could miss with all, thus we look at the average and then pick an amount of deviation that is acceptable.

Then we throw in some near scatters, thinking about how 1" of extra scatter probably removes 2 models, and 2" probably removes 3 or 4. As such, if we say that, when it hits, it will hit, on average like 7 models, I don't think it's all that far away to assert that about half the time, a russ will put down 5 or 6 wounds.

Now yeah, there are still some unknowables there, but there are unknowables in regular weapons too. The only real question is how many hits it gets. This is obviously dependent on the die rolls and your opponent's dispersion. ALL weapons are dependent on die rolls, though, and I'd argue that dispersion will affect any one given shot, but probably not that much over the long term, what with dispersion simultaneously reducing the models hit and the chance that you will hit them.

In any case, we know that russ cannons cause things to go splat out of cover, and that the russ and the punisher both do roughly the same in cover. As such, you have to look outside of firepower, where all of the above by willydstyle must be taken into account.

sourclams wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Every time I have used the Punisher, I slaughter foot troops. It's not that the gun is overwhelming, it's the fact that you force rolls.

In the times I have rolled the heavy 20, I average 13 hits without Pask. With Pask, my average jumps to 15. Plus 2 Bolters and a lascannon, the tank does work.

I'll take my chances with it.

Just curious, is your advice for using any of the notorious 'weaker' choices to simply roll better than average? Yes, if a Punisher cannon reliably put 10 wounds on a squad of Marines I'd consider it as a viable choice. Since I'm stuck with the version that only does 6 or so, I'm a little less friendly to it.

Oh of course not, I don't know why my average is so high, I honestly don't get it, but I am not complaining.

This is not an exact science, I was merely showing the average amount of hits I accrue with the Punisher Cannon on an average infantry squad. The reason I even have the thing is to have it and my Chimera (which bristles with guns) to throw down a veritable carpet of fire together when heading towards objectives. I don't expect it to sweep away Terminators or even MEQ's, but in a pinch, they can get the job done by beating the averages. I like forcing my opponents to take a lot of saving throws, and every time they throw, it is just one more opportunity to see the soldier fall. When I can have 27 shots from the Punisher in one turn (HB's and LC) + 14 from my Chimera (which has a Multilaser, Heavy Stubber and Heavy Bolter+ the guys inside) = I don't see many things surviving a torrent like that, cover saves and good armor saves or not. If I only hit half it's still 20.5 hits, and with the majority of these shots being Str 4 or better, I like my odds. And if the Punisher cannon gets torn off, I still have an LC for opportunistic tank hunting.

Something I am seeing a lot of is people are underestimating this tank. The Exterminator is great for slaughtering hvy infantry and light transports, but I think it will draw the most attention early (even more than a regular Russ), it's short ranged too. The Vanquisher has an even smaller niche, it does great there, but it is almost useless for anti infantry duty (which it souldn't be doing). The Erdaicator is very situational, amazing in City fighting and clearing out cover, but, it has a short range. The Demolisher is the same way, sans the anti cover abilities.

I do plan on getting an Exterminator pretty soon.