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Gobstomp420 wrote:Good man Shane. You hit the nail on the head. I love missions that make you think beyond the norm. And if some kid brought a list that was less than 'internet optimum,' it could just be that he likes those units. More power to him. This is a HOBBY, not life saving medicine, or rocket science. Take it down a notch WAAC folks!

Again, Shane, you hit it perfect. good call.

Competitive players seem like WAAC players to the 'hobbyist'.

Not really. I find myself turning more and more to the hobby side but the "competitive" players still dont seem like WAAC to me. Just because somebody makes a list with winning in mind doesn't make them WAAC. People who abuse every little falter in a rule, use allowed but discouraging language to get you off your game, and are just all around 's are what I consider WAAC. I personally play to have fun. Tournaments are just a way for me to get more games in. Win or lose is irrelevant as long as its fun.

I just have to pipe in about the Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent, having faced them myself. That is a pretty powerful combination, but it can be neutralized if the proper steps are taken. What I've found to be effective is a backup unit of 20-30 sluggaboyz with 3 big shootas. Even if the Eldar player has a good shooting turn, whether he assaults or not, that unit will wipe the Fire Dragons off of the board. That's why I like playing Orks so much, you don't mind their generally nonexistent armor if you get a hundred of them in 2,000 points.

About drinking at tournaments, I had a few beers myself, but the people I was describing were nearly falling down drunk, and seemed like they didn't know the rules that well when sover. Of course, I've also played against the caffeine-overdosed power gamer who seemed like he was about to cry because my Kustom Force Field saves were thwarting his pair of whirlwinds. I guess that it all has to do with the mindset that you walk in the door with. By the way, could this dreaded third scenario be worse than Dawn of War deployment? It sucks so bad I am on the verge of refusing to acknowledge it's existence!!!

The best player locally, won multiple GT's back in his day, consistently places high in major GWS tourneys and he's a pretty decent, well - mannered player.

I don't see a correlation. There are corrosive players in every circle and it's a shame to label people in groups such as win at all cost, elitist, hobbyist, etc because I've met total wastes of gamer in all those groups.

sourclams wrote:GW does have a rule set that's so loose you could drive trucks through the gaping holes. I recently picked up the Warmachine mk2 book just to check out the new game set with my friends and the first thing we all noticed, and amazed at, were how clear and comprehensive the rules were.

Unfortunately, this is true...

Well said Shane, well said.

Some people attach to much of their sense of self to this game, which is weird to me. I love 40K and I love competitive gaming, but man, it is just a game in the end.

I don't pay attention to the negative Nancy's on the internet anymore. Most of them just have little dick syndrome and want to feel big and tough by acting like billy badass.

If you are a good player you don't need any validation from the big mouths on the internet. Just go and play and win and have fun. The hecklers on the sidelines can go screw themselves.

I play to:
1.) Hang out with my buddies
2.) Exercise my mind and scratch y competitive itch

Outside of that, who cares? Let the Sally's say what they want, most of them don't even play competitively, they just talk big.

Deadshane1 wrote:People are saying mean things on the internet.

Seriously dude, it's the internet - this is what happens.

Does people being donkey-caves on the internet really warrant an eight parahraph rant? Why even comment on it?

As for "people need to calm down", if people want to slag off the scenarios or the army lists then what exactly is the problem with that?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:People are saying mean things on the internet.

Seriously dude, it's the internet - this is what happens.

Does people being donkey-caves on the internet really warrant an eight parahraph rant? Why even comment on it?

As for "people need to calm down", if people want to slag off the scenarios or the army lists then what exactly is the problem with that?

Sorry, but If I'd played the person in question that posts his batreps online and lost against him, I'd be a bit personally offended when some of his entourage feels the need to come on and criticise my list in ways like...

"was he drunk?"
"what an idiot!"
"..needs to learn how to f$%kin' play!"

Check it. I understand this is a game unlike these people. Last time I attended Adepticon I took a straight Grey Knight army ( and I dont think anyone will argue that Grey Knights are basically WEAK if played without any allies from other codexes). No allies....just to see how well I could do and because I thought it would be fun.

I wasnt drunk
I'm not an idiot
and I know how to f#%kin' play, as a matter of fact...noone beat me. Three wins in the championship RTT.

...and whatdya know...I had fun....and I had fun playing their scenarios!

Sure its the internet, those guys have every right to complain right? About the slack a$$ army lists and garbage scenarios...

...well, I guess I have every right to complain about their lack of maturity, and their lack of comprehension that this is a hobby designed to "have fun".


...from the looks of it, lots of people agree with me here. Funny that.

So your argument is that people shouldn't be mean because someone might be offended?

That's sweet but someone can take offence to almost anything.

Scott-S6 wrote:So your argument is that people shouldn't be mean because someone might be offended?

That's sweet but it's not how the world works.

Thanks for the life lesson, as irrelevant as it may be.

Regardless, NO they should'nt be mean especially to people they dont even know. It's this new thing called courtesy.


...you know, that thing that keeps you from getting your lights punched out in the real world.

Scott-S6 wrote:I don't even need to comment here.

Probably a good idea.

...from the looks of it, lots of people agree with me here. Funny that.

That's because you're preaching to the choir, here. Dakka, out of all the wargaming boards I know, is the one most skewed towards casual gamers, hobbyists, and players generally unconcerned with winning tournaments.

The fact is that you went to the prelim for an incredibly competitive tournament. You're expected to be fielding the cream of the crop against the cream of the crop: a suboptimal list DOES in fact mean that you either didn't care too much about winning, or you did and you're not nearly as good as you think you are. To a player who wants to win the game to the exclusion of all else, your actions could easily be interpreted as kind of stupid. Why should he expect a player not to bring their absolute A-Game to a COMPETITIVE TOURNAMENT? I could understand if this was a local tournament or just another casual game night, but it's the fething 'ard Boyz preliminaries.

And, moreover, there's no need to be so high and mighty. Your view of the game isn't any more valid than people who play exclusively to win. After all, we do have rules to determine a winner and loser. There are both objective and subjective elements to the game, and focusing on one or the other doesn't mean you're "missing what the game is REALLY about", it just means that that player doesn't get what the game is really about according to YOUR opinion.

Just because Dakka agrees with you - or even if the majority of players overall agrees with you - it doesn't mean that your version of the game is more valid than those who focus solely on the objective end of the game.



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Deadshane1 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:So your argument is that people shouldn't be mean because someone might be offended?

That's sweet but it's not how the world works.

Thanks for the life lesson, as irrelevant as it may be.

Regardless, NO they should'nt be mean especially to people they dont even know. It's this new thing called courtesy.

...you know, that thing that keeps you from getting your lights punched out in the real world.

Hey, what's the difference between the following statements?

"Your list could use a little work for a tournament like this."

"Wow, you took 'crons to 'ard Boyz?"

"Your list sucks, why would you even bother?"

The answer is nothing. All three of these statements boil down to the same opinion. The difference is on your end; whether or not you're too thin-skinned to get past your emotional response to their tone.

A bad attitude doesn't make someone wrong. Granted, it's likely going to make a statement fall on deaf ears, but I truly think that's the fault of people for being so goddamned defensive all the time. You would think after a few decades of having the internet people whould have thicker skins by now.

Deadshane1 wrote:Regardless, NO they should'nt be mean especially to people they dont even know.

So it's okay to be mean to people you do know?

Sorry, but anyone who's afraid to say what they think because it might hurt someone's feelings has a problem. Could some people do with presenting their opinions more a little more tactfully? Possibly, but it doesn't change the essential nature of that opinion.

Ostrakon wrote:

...from the looks of it, lots of people agree with me here. Funny that.

That's because you're preaching to the choir, here. Dakka, out of all the wargaming boards I know, is the one most skewed towards casual gamers, hobbyists, and players generally unconcerned with winning tournaments.

The fact is that you went to the prelim for an incredibly competitive tournament. You're expected to be fielding the cream of the crop against the cream of the crop: a suboptimal list DOES in fact mean that you either didn't care too much about winning, or you did and you're not nearly as good as you think you are. To a player who wants to win the game to the exclusion of all else, your actions could easily be interpreted as kind of stupid. Why should he expect a player not to bring their absolute A-Game to a COMPETITIVE TOURNAMENT? I could understand if this was a local tournament or just another casual game night, but it's the fething 'ard Boyz preliminaries.

And, moreover, there's no need to be so high and mighty. Your view of the game isn't any more valid than people who play exclusively to win. After all, we do have rules to determine a winner and loser. There are both objective and subjective elements to the game, and focusing on one or the other doesn't mean you're "missing what the game is REALLY about", it just means that that player doesn't get what the game is really about according to YOUR opinion.

Just because Dakka agrees with you - or even if the majority of players overall agrees with you - it doesn't mean that your version of the game is more valid than those who focus solely on the objective end of the game.

Hey man, Dakka has had plenty of its share of GW bashing concerning these scenario's in question. Thats a big part of what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, they're still setting up a FREE tournament series with SERIOUS prise support.

I've got nothing but thanx for them...and I wasnt even able to attend.

I fail to see how I'm being all "high and mighty" with my posts here. We're not talking about someones "version" of the game. We're talking about being a jerk about a FREE tournaments rules. We're talking about actually getting all "up in arms" because some poor guy that may or may not know the game as well as you is running a list you dont agree with.

We're talking about being a bit more adult, and knowing how to behave oneself.

Yea, its asking a lot, but as I said in my first post here, I just felt it needed to be said.


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Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Regardless, NO they should'nt be mean especially to people they dont even know.

So it's okay to be mean to people you do know?

I dont remember EVER saying that. Improper debate direction.

Deadshane1 wrote:Hey man, Dakka has had plenty of its share of GW bashing concerning these scenario's in question. Thats a big part of what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, they're still setting up a FREE tournament series with SERIOUS prise support.

So because it's free that makes them immune from criticism?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:I fail to see how I'm being all "high and mighty" with my posts here.

Actually, you're not - you're being whiny.

If someone says something you don't like the correct responses are:
a) ignore them
b) confront them

It's not:
c) go somewhere else and complain about people being mean.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Hey man, Dakka has had plenty of its share of GW bashing concerning these scenario's in question. Thats a big part of what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, they're still setting up a FREE tournament series with SERIOUS prise support.

So because it's free that makes them immune from criticism?

Scott, whats with the misdirection? I never said that either.

Immune from criticism? NO! But there's certainly no reason whatsoever for the highly emotional reactions to the scenarios. "Mission three is the dumbest thing ever, whoever wrote this doesnt know a thing about the game and/or has never played a game of 40k in his/her life." ....then play and walk away with free stuff from the tournament.

Talk about an immature attitude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scott-S6 wrote:
Actually, you're not - you're being whiny.
.

Whatever, and you're being whiny about my being whiny about their being whiny.

So I think we're done here. Right?

What's immature about taking part in a competition and then expressing a negative opinion about part of the organisation?

You keep bringing up that it's free - how is that relevant?

And why would we be done? Passive-agressive much?

wait a minute. You didn't even go to hard boys?

Why are you complaining then? If you are judging the tournament scene on what you read on these forums then you need to seriously wake up and go outside and get some fresh air.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
Actually, you're not - you're being whiny.

If someone says something you don't like the correct responses are:
a) ignore them
b) confront them

It's not:
c) go somewhere else and complain about people being mean.
.

Whatever, and you're being whiny about my being whiny about their being whiny.

No, I'm going with option B and telling you what I dislike about what you've posted. If I was being whiny I'd be complaining about you on
some other website.

gannam wrote:wait a minute. You didn't even go to hard boys?

Why are you complaining then? If you are judging the tournament scene on what you read on these forums then you need to seriously wake up and go outside and get some fresh air.

I'm complaining about all the internet hate against a tournament that I WANTED to go to and have been to in the past.

I'm not judging the tournament scene at all, I'm judging the internet haterz. (most of which have probably never even BEEN to a tournament)

I'm WELL familiar with the tournament scene with over 14 years of 40k tournament gaming under my belt...I'm well qualified to speak out here.

Ostrakon wrote:
That's because you're preaching to the choir, here. Dakka, out of all the wargaming boards I know, is the one most skewed towards casual gamers, hobbyists, and players generally unconcerned with winning tournaments.

Wait, wait, wait, what?!

When the hell did this happen?

Dakka was THE place for serious tournament gamers. This is where the best players hung out since forever.

Where in the blazes do the serious gamers go?

Wow, maybe I am just in denial, and that is why I only hang out in the News and Rumors, and Tournament Discussion areas these days.

Times, they have a changed.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
Actually, you're not - you're being whiny.

If someone says something you don't like the correct responses are:
a) ignore them
b) confront them

It's not:
c) go somewhere else and complain about people being mean.
.

Whatever, and you're being whiny about my being whiny about their being whiny.

No, I'm going with option B and telling you what I dislike about what you've posted. If I was being whiny I'd be complaining about you on
some other website.

So you're "whining" less than me....how exactly? I wasnt aware that the zip code mattered.

So far I have seen no valid evidence against Deadshane. He made his observation as an opinion that was supported by facts. His post had no animosity towards any particular individual and although it was emotionally strong instead of entirely impartial it was because he believed it. As to the statements of people being thinned skinned or it being ok to be a jerk is skewed. Yes I agree that people these days are too thinned skinned but that doesn't give you the right to be a jerk to somebody just because they play something differently than you or are too new to quite realize what is capable of winning a tourney. Just because Ostrakon and Scott-s6 seem to think its ok to be total heads to people doesn't make it right; however; it also isn't right to offer advice where it wasn't asked for even if its constructive.

rocklord2004 wrote:So far I have seen no valid evidence against Deadshane. He made his observation as an opinion that was supported by facts. His post had no animosity towards any particular individual and although it was emotionally strong instead of entirely impartial it was because he believed it. As to the statements of people being thinned skinned or it being ok to be a jerk is skewed. Yes I agree that people these days are too thinned skinned but that doesn't give you the right to be a jerk to somebody just because they play something differently than you or are too new to quite realize what is capable of winning a tourney. Just because Ostrakon and Scott-s6 seem to think its ok to be total heads to people doesn't make it right; however; it also isn't right to offer advice where it wasn't asked for even if its constructive.

Thanks for the assist! It was getting lonely in here!

I think we're starting to get far off the original point shane was trying to make.

It has nothing to do with whether being "competitive" or "casual" is the right mindset. As far as I can see, that wasn't what he was talking about. Its also not about which is more or less valid, both are valid. The point is that some people in both camps act like ITG's and in general, total tools, over a game that is supposed to be fun, and its becoming more and more common. Whether your fun is derived from being the fluffy guy screaming "EXTERMINATUS" or "WAAAGH" or the competitive guy spending hours constructing lists, metagaming, and playing practices, neither player type needs to treat others disrespectfully.

It's not about "whining" or being "thin-skinned". It's about following the golden rule of treating others as you wish to be treated yourself. I'd wager that 99% of you, not that you'd admit it, that are arguing for "just grow a thicker skin and don't let it bother you, people can say what they want how they want, it doesn't change what they're saying" would react very differently if at an event, in person, I said to you:

"Would you mind leaving your dice rolls on the board a little longer, its not that I don't trust you, but I'd just like the chance to see them" (some tact present)

or

"You're a f'ing cheater, you didn't roll that, you just scooped so I couldn't see your rolls!"

Both have the same message. One is appropriate adult behavior, one is not.

Or another example, I see your army at ard boyz and say:

"Why did you bring rough riders? When I've used them they haven't been very effective, have you considered XXXXX instead?" (some tact)

or

"Dude, are you slowed? Rough riders? Really? Did you spent the 5 points to upgrade them from fail to epic fail you f'ing idiot?" (ITG response)

We all do this hobby for our own reasons, whether its winning tourneys, painting, getting into the fluff, or any number of other reasons. But I'd say that one big thing we all have in common is: we don't enjoy being talked to disrespectfully, insulted, or talked down to. And that behavior detracts from EVERYONES enjoyment of the hobby, wherever it originates from.

targetawg wrote:I think we're starting to get far off the original point shane was trying to make.

It has nothing to do with whether being "competitive" or "casual" is the right mindset. As far as I can see, that wasn't what he was talking about. Its also not about which is more or less valid, both are valid. The point is that some people in both camps act like ITG's and in general, total tools, over a game that is supposed to be fun, and its becoming more and more common. Whether your fun is derived from being the fluffy guy screaming "EXTERMINATUS" or "WAAAGH" or the competitive guy spending hours constructing lists, metagaming, and playing practices, neither player type needs to treat others disrespectfully.

It's not about "whining" or being "thin-skinned". It's about following the golden rule of treating others as you wish to be treated yourself. I'd wager that 99% of you, not that you'd admit it, that are arguing for "just grow a thicker skin and don't let it bother you, people can say what they want how they want, it doesn't change what they're saying" would react very differently if at an event, in person, I said to you:

"Would you mind leaving your dice rolls on the board a little longer, its not that I don't trust you, but I'd just like the chance to see them" (some tact present)

or

"You're a f'ing cheater, you didn't roll that, you just scooped so I couldn't see your rolls!"

Both have the same message. One is appropriate adult behavior, one is not.

Or another example, I see your army at ard boyz and say:

"Why did you bring rough riders? When I've used them they haven't been very effective, have you considered XXXXX instead?" (some tact)

or

"Dude, are you slowed? Rough riders? Really? Did you spent the 5 points to upgrade them from fail to epic fail you f'ing idiot?" (ITG response)

We all do this hobby for our own reasons, whether its winning tourneys, painting, getting into the fluff, or any number of other reasons. But I'd say that one big thing we all have in common is: we don't enjoy being talked to disrespectfully, insulted, or talked down to. And that behavior detracts from EVERYONES enjoyment of the hobby, wherever it originates from.

Deadshane is right on the money. Its a lesson in maturity. Whether you accept it well or not. In any competitive environment including sports, yes the physical activity stuff... It shouldn't be "accepted" to belittle others because they aren't competitive power gamer list writers, WAACs, "if your not cheating, your not trying" players or simply because they have a silly list. Who cares! Just play. Try to have some mutual fun playing the game. Not have fun trying to be superior.

How would that attract new players. "Look at me Timmy, I won in my toy soldier game and now get to be all cocky. Want to get in on the action"?

Its not so much that the nasty comments gets posted on the internet(IMO), but for the most part defines why sometimes playing this game isn't fun. I think the point of the OP has been convoluted during the discussion. It's about courtesy and general politeness. I hope these qualities aren't lost.

I did play 'ard boys and ran into two WAACs from out of town. It was disappointing(their attitude), but I wasn't surprised. It was expected. These cats weren't rude, but one of them were "trying".

Scary. Were gaining ground for treating people like people. This cannot end well. :3.....shh. I hear trolls amassing.

I see what it is now, this thread is all about Deadshane1's desperate need to vent about someone being wrong on the internet. Seriously, grow a sense of humor or the stress is going to kill you.

THEY'RE HERE. FLEEEEEE. Actually his post was about the way people, both online and offline, have been degrading people. His pimary point was WAAC people being jerks to casual gamers and hobbyists, but due to the way he has supported others I believe it is safe to believe he is also against hobbyists who treat competitive gamers like crap because they havn't painted their army just yet because their focus on the game/hobby is having a strong competitive army before working on painting things. To sum it all up it was venting about the negative effect that jerky type people are having on the game/hobby in general.

Dont usually get involved in anything thats not lists or painting, but have to post


1: So dakka has no tournie players now? i call serious BS on this one.
It is infact one of the best sources for finding regular tournament players.

2: Allways play to amuse yourself.
If your to the point where you just want to win for the sake of winning, your past help.
If you have fun while winning, then its going right.

3: Shane: Alas, its true.
I think your pretty much spot on with saying that all these list crits are generally gamers that dont play often.
Theory and math-hammering get you so far, having social skills and playing the game make a real difference though.