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FIrst off its cool but I know why hes having a jamming problem, any gumsmith will tell you the same thing.
the casing he using are getting caught on the ejector spring. If you ever look at a bolt action round to a automatic round the casing is and lip of the rim are almost flush with just a small groove to pull the spend casing out.
While on a bolt action(manualy weapon) there a lip to pull the expent shell out. Why, because its not a fast pace operation machine were it has to be tool to certian standards....
But all he has to do is fix the casing and it will be find

and to all the shot gun buffs out , the automatic shotguns shoot at a slower rate of fire , and has a improved ejector spring/lever in them.

Well, I think part of the reason that most commercial automatic shotguns have a slower rate of fire is that they are designed to be shot from the shoulder/hip. If the rate of fire was as fast as the one shown here, then it wouldn't be very controllable IMO!

Anyway, for my money automatic grenade launchers like the M-19 are much closer to a "real" bolter-type weapon!

nieto666 wrote:It sure does Jam alot though, I wonder if SM ever have that problem while in the field.

yeah but for something that seems to be a prototype weapon its pretty awesome

Here. The Lexicanum page on Bolters (Including sources list on the bottom) so that Melissa and smash can have a heartfelt hug-and-make up session

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter

As we can all see, this Shotgun - while totally awesome - is nothing close to a Bolter.

I'd still have to buy this guy a beer for scratchbuilding it though.

In order to PROPERLY develope a bolter weapon though, one needs to develope the Bolter Shells.

Bolter shells appear to be quite advanced as far as ammunition goes, a combination of rockets and bullets. If they were pure rockets, the bolter shells wouldn't leave casings to eject-- and besides, one could stop a rocket from doing any harm by putting a finger in the barrel and just preventing it from reaching lethal velocity.

No, a bolter shell appears to have two stages-- a traditional bullet stage, giving the boltgun a lot of recoil and launching the shell with lethal velocity, and then a second rocket stage, probably activating immediately upon leaving the barrel. The rocket stage would allow the bolter to have much better accuracy at long range, because it would maintain its speed and heading more than a traditional bullet would.

This explains both the fact that bolter shells leave casings (rockets do not), and the expensive nature of the ammunition.

Melissia wrote:In order to PROPERLY develope a bolter weapon though, one needs to develope the Bolter Shells.

Bolter shells appear to be quite advanced as far as ammunition goes, a combination of rockets and bullets. If they were pure rockets, the bolter shells wouldn't leave casings to eject-- and besides, one could stop a rocket from doing any harm by putting a finger in the barrel and just preventing it from reaching lethal velocity.

No, a bolter shell appears to have two stages-- a traditional bullet stage, giving the boltgun a lot of recoil and launching the shell with lethal velocity, and then a second rocket stage, probably activating immediately upon leaving the barrel. The rocket stage would allow the bolter to have much better accuracy at long range, because it would maintain its speed and heading more than a traditional bullet would.

This explains both the fact that bolter shells leave casings (rockets do not), and the expensive nature of the ammunition.

Practically the conclusion I've come to as well. It's the only way to really explain how it leaves shell casings when the rounds are described as miniature rockets. I don't like to simply put things up to the "rule of cool", because you can only do this so much before it becomes... well... uncool. So I share the same interpretation of how a bolt works.

>post something that remotely resembles a heavy bolter
>s**t storm ensues
>Lmaf at a pointless argument.

Kokojo wrote:>post something that remotely resembles a heavy bolter
>s**t storm ensues
>Lmoaf at a pointless argument.

>Watched video
>Read through arguement
>Solved arguement by posting a link that settled on a middle ground
>Read this post
>Concluded that OP has a low Internet Level.

metallifan wrote:

Melissia wrote:In order to PROPERLY develope a bolter weapon though, one needs to develope the Bolter Shells.

Bolter shells appear to be quite advanced as far as ammunition goes, a combination of rockets and bullets. If they were pure rockets, the bolter shells wouldn't leave casings to eject-- and besides, one could stop a rocket from doing any harm by putting a finger in the barrel and just preventing it from reaching lethal velocity.

No, a bolter shell appears to have two stages-- a traditional bullet stage, giving the boltgun a lot of recoil and launching the shell with lethal velocity, and then a second rocket stage, probably activating immediately upon leaving the barrel. The rocket stage would allow the bolter to have much better accuracy at long range, because it would maintain its speed and heading more than a traditional bullet would.

This explains both the fact that bolter shells leave casings (rockets do not), and the expensive nature of the ammunition.

Practically the conclusion I've come to as well. It's the only way to really explain how it leaves shell casings when the rounds are described as miniature rockets. I don't like to simply put things up to the "rule of cool", because you can only do this so much before it becomes... well... uncool. So I share the same interpretation of how a bolt works.

Actually, bolters do not leave casings. It's a common misconception from novels and models. In the original writings and written fluff of a bolter, it said they were caseless, merely firing the whole thing and shooting off like a two-stage rocket, or something along those terms.

As for the discussion from Melissa earlier, bolters and lasguns are indeed both three-type firing weapons. Single, burst, and full auto are all able to be used, hence why a bolter when standing can fire one shot, in the game that is.

Dark Heresy is not considered canon, nor is a novel beyond what fans believe is fluff or not. The Horus Heresy has many flaws itself, but they are telling a story about previous happenings. So no, novels are NOT CANON GUYS. They are fluff and can be used to learn of the universe, but they often have many, many flaws to them, such as bolters having casings. Dark Heresy is a heavy bit of non-canon information as they were given leeway to do with it as they please. None of that is true fluff in there, as you cannot take anything not produced by Games Workshop as true fluff.

you may belive that Bolters don't leave casings, BUT the actual models beg to differ.

if you look closely you can see the ejection port and don't tell me that its for Shells that don't fire properly. I doubt Bolt shells misfire very often(never had it happen in the fluff i have read) Besides if it was, why would the gun need a port on BOTH sides of the gun?(its so the gun can be used with either hand)

Also, there's plenty of fluff regarding bolters leaving casings, too. For that matter, Astartes and Sororitas bolter casings are considered blessed artefacts if one is to come across one.

Ahh a gun video... How many of the Yanks got aroused?

On topic: I'll admit that's pretty cool... but is it legal? I thought full-auto stuff was a big no no...

Not in america it isn't.

Yea in the states you can have Fully Automatic weapons. Hell there're pawn shops in Vegas that sell Bazookas. I'm not sure about ammo, mind you, but there you go.

Mind you, in the UK you guys get to drive Tanks as everyday vehicles, provided the barrels are properly plugged with concrete and you can afford the padded road treads.

In Canada, we can't even get burst weapons. And Tanks? Forget it. We can get Semi Auto or Bolt Action Weapons, but that's it. Sure, it results in awesome marksmanship, but I'd love to own -anything- Automatic just for the sake of saying I own it.

Melissia wrote:Actually it's not all that off-topic. We're discussing what would make a real-life bolter, yes? Well, we'd need to define what a bolter in fiction is, first...

"All that off-topic"? Seriously, that still means you're off topic and juggling semantics doesnt change that.



Most people seem pretty oblivious to the fact .75 caliber, is the same size as a 12 gauge shell.

Which is why it seems odd that bolters cannot also function as shotguns by switching to a much simpler and cheaper form of ammo compared to the small gyro jet round the standard bolter round is supposed to be. The tech is getting rather close, and may even be feasible from a technical standpoint- but from a financial stand point its not worth it. The theoretical advantage of a bolter shell- lies in that you can fire a heavier round with less recoil(like a miniature RPG- a kicker charge pushes the shell out then the motor kicks in) than comparing it to a conventional weapon where the accelerated mass puts the recoil impulse into the firer(this is why larger rifles and heavy 12 ga loads kick so badly).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarGate wrote:FIrst off its cool but I know why hes having a jamming problem, any gumsmith will tell you the same thing.
the casing he using are getting caught on the ejector spring. If you ever look at a bolt action round to a automatic round the casing is and lip of the rim are almost flush with just a small groove to pull the spend casing out.
While on a bolt action(manualy weapon) there a lip to pull the expent shell out. Why, because its not a fast pace operation machine were it has to be tool to certian standards....
But all he has to do is fix the casing and it will be find

and to all the shot gun buffs out , the automatic shotguns shoot at a slower rate of fire , and has a improved ejector spring/lever in them.

You're referring to a rebated rim cartridge- which has little to do with the functionality of a machine gun and more to do with technological advances and magazine usage. Rimmed cartridges are also easier to make- and design firearms for(like revolvers). Rimmed cartridges cause problems in magazine fed weapons- which is why in turn of the century bolt action rifles like the mauser you see the move to rebated rims while a few retained a rimmed cartridge (Like the Enfield .303, and the russian 7.62x54r) because it was seen as more reliable for shell extraction. For an example of a machine gun that fired rimmed cartridges- look to the Vickers water coled .303, which saw use all the way up to the Korean war. And there are several Russian machine guns firing the 7.62x54r, many of which are still in use today.

The biggest advantage of the rebated rims- is it lets the magazines be designed straighter, and within the brass casing the base of the casing is often thicker which allows higher chamber pressure(this means higher velocity).

Extraction mechanisms in a fire arms action are pretty much the same in terms of design regardless of the use of rimmed or rebated rim cartridges. One of the reasons the gun in the vid is jamming so much- is its obviously a prototype with some bugs. Using plastic shot shells doesnt help as they are soft and can deform if the feed mechanism isnt just right- and the cloth belt could be binding up as well. Adjsuting the 'timing' of belt fed weapons is tricky with cloth belts- if it doesnt advance enough- jam. advances too much- jam. The flat front of the 12 ga doesnt help on that- conical bullets will 'funnel' in the the chamber if theyre a little off.

Mistress of minis wrote:"All that off-topic"? Seriously, that still means you're off topic and juggling semantics doesnt change that.

The FACT remains, despite your unnecessary (and far more off-topic) complaint, that my posts were in fact on topic.

By the way, Bolters also seem to be described as having high recoil, or I recall such myself.

metallifan wrote:[snip]

Personally, I'm thinking of trying to obtain a Colt Anaconda. It's NOT a very good weapon for someone like me, seeing as it's a heavy magnum, but goddamn is it sexy.

What I wouldn't give for a real life bolter. Maybe I can go to the Chaos Gods and ask for one. What do you guys think the price would be?

Slarg232 wrote:What I wouldn't give for a real life bolter. Maybe I can go to the Chaos Gods and ask for one. What do you guys think the price would be?

You'd end up with crab claws for hands and wouldnt be able to use your bolter

Mistress of minis wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:What I wouldn't give for a real life bolter. Maybe I can go to the Chaos Gods and ask for one. What do you guys think the price would be?

You'd end up with crab claws for hands and wouldnt be able to use your bolter

But then I would have Crab Hands!

Seriously though, If Fire Warrior is to be beleived (LOLOLOLOLOLOL), Then the Bolter is a burst fire weapon. Or at least, thats how Fire Warrior showed it, IIRC.

Impierial Munitorium manuel: Pg 65, Bolter

"A bolter can fire a single shot(Semi-auto), a four round burst, or fully automatic fire, though without bionic augmentation it is not reccomended that anyone other then one of the Space Marines fires on anything other then the single shot setting."


it goes on to say that bolters can be, and even are, designed to be customized so varients are possable, but this is obviously the standard loadout.

Melissia wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:"All that off-topic"? Seriously, that still means you're off topic and juggling semantics doesnt change that.

The FACT remains, despite your unnecessary (and far more off-topic) complaint, that my posts were in fact on topic.

By the way, Bolters also seem to be described as having high recoil, or I recall such myself.

metallifan wrote:[snip]

Personally, I'm thinking of trying to obtain a Colt Anaconda. It's NOT a very good weapon for someone like me, seeing as it's a heavy magnum, but goddamn is it sexy.

Give it a rest already :-/

4 malfunctions in 32 seconds? Back to the drawing board militiaman

The master paint set came with a Bolter Shell Casing to use as a paint pot.

Oh wait, no doubt something designed by the studio isnt canon

Gamble wrote:4 malfunctions in 32 seconds? Back to the drawing board militiaman

The reasons for its jamming have been pointed out.

only 4 is pretty good for a homemade machine gun.

I, and prehaps most people here on Dakka, would be lucky to make a machine gun that even fires at all.

Aw I need to get one of these, once those jamming issues are worked out though =/

Bolter like ammunition already exists...granted on a slightly larger scale; then again, it doesn't have the rocket stage that is famed for the bolter, but let's face it, it is pretty much unnecessary give current armor.

Here's an example:

APDS: Armored piercing discarding sabot. First off you have the round in a shell...in said shell are your propellants, kinetic or chemical warhead and the sabot. The principle works like this...because of the sabot being present, the round reaches a significantly higher muzzle velocity due to the area of the barrel being taken up by said sabot. In mid flight, the sabot disperses and then the real fun starts. In most instances a very dense material is used, such as tungsten carbide, as the round impacts the target the momentum literally punches a hole through the armor. In some instances there are weapons that employ chemical warheads that may instead use thermite or other thermoberic warheads. The end result is pretty much anything hit is dead...

Sure, they could put a secondary stage motor on the round but the fact of the matter is it would just be pointless. The impact veolicty and force can go through and through a main battle tank...shrink this down a little and you see where I'm going.

Actually that's not really bolter ammunition, so much as it is Vanquisher ammunition.

Bolter ammunition is more like bunker-buster bombs on a much smaller scale, effectively penetrating armor and then exploding once it has gotten a little bit under the armor and into the flesh.

Grey Templar wrote:you may belive that Bolters don't leave casings, BUT the actual models beg to differ.

if you look closely you can see the ejection port and don't tell me that its for Shells that don't fire properly. I doubt Bolt shells misfire very often(never had it happen in the fluff i have read) Besides if it was, why would the gun need a port on BOTH sides of the gun?(its so the gun can be used with either hand)

I've seen people paint that bit as a screen displaying an ammo count... But that wouldn't explain why there's a bit that probably moves back and fourth along it to eject casings.

Bolter shells are probably a combination of RPGs and the above mentioned Sabot system. Shell acts as a stabilizer while in the gun to enhance its accuracy and force while travelling through the barrel. Then after it's removed it probably pulls a small pin or moves something out of some wire to complete a circuit and use a small battery to create an ignition spark for the engine. Then like a RPG when it hits something it appears to explode, but most of the damage is caused by a copper tube being super heated by the explosion (I think that's how it went) and quickly driven inside out and into a spike.

But it's more of"it works because it's cool" thing.

Bolter ammunition is more like bunker-buster bombs on a much smaller scale, effectively penetrating armor and then exploding once it has gotten a little bit under the armor and into the flesh.

That's just another variant of warhead used in the previously described system. All a bolter shell is just a modified sabot round...For instance, if the round was depleted Uranium the density of the warhead would punch through just about any kind of armor and upon entering the "fleshy" part of the target, an effect known as "spawling". Basically the round cools so fast that it shatters and explodes inside the target.