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Frazzled wrote:

Grignard wrote:

I used to feel the same way you do Fraz. I've had experiences though that changed my viewpoint. If you have consideration for those around you, most of them will do the same for you.

Well there's your problem right there. I already have empathy, more than most others on this board. I don't want to tell you what to do any more than I want your losers tying to tell me what to do.

But Fraz, everything you do can affect those around you. Should I dump used oil in my yard just because its my property? Should I drive a vehicle with no tail lights when it could endanger others?

I've found out since i've gotten out in the world that the government is sometimes supposed to, well, govern.

Frazzled wrote:

Grignard wrote:

I used to feel the same way you do Fraz. I've had experiences though that changed my viewpoint. If you have consideration for those around you, most of them will do the same for you.

Well there's your problem right there. I already have empathy, more than most others on this board. I don't want to tell you what to do any more than I want your losers tying to tell me what to do.

If I do wrong then I think, if I were to remove myself to "the original perspective", I'd *WANT* you to tell me what I'm doing wrong. If you can tell me so in a straightforward and well-argued manner that I can't dispute, then I'll change my ways... That's surely the proper purpose of debate?

Henners91 wrote:

It makes you impossible to persuade but doesn't leave me with warm feelings toward you

Thats ok. You're new here. Soon you'll understand I'm just a loveable bunny.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:
Fair enough, like I said the climate's not my main qualm... if a car's justifiable then go for it, I just feel like it's acceptable to be preachy on issues such as Earth's limited resources when it comes to the well-being of the species.

You're a student right? Thats sweet. Call me up in 20 years when you've had an actual life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grignard wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grignard wrote:

I used to feel the same way you do Fraz. I've had experiences though that changed my viewpoint. If you have consideration for those around you, most of them will do the same for you.

Well there's your problem right there. I already have empathy, more than most others on this board. I don't want to tell you what to do any more than I want your losers tying to tell me what to do.

But Fraz, everything you do can affect those around you. Should I dump used oil in my yard just because its my property? Should I drive a vehicle with no tail lights when it could endanger others?

I've found out since i've gotten out in the world that the government is sometimes supposed to, well, govern.

Everything effects everything. Again, so what? Its an excuse for dictatorship which iws what you're advocating.

I had a conversation with a hardcore hippy the other day, and he advised me to stop driving my car, and use public transportation.

It was one of the stupidest conversations I've ever had, and it was promptly followed by advice to eat fish, and if I couldn't afford it, to get it out of a trashcan (as a means to protect the rainforest or some BS). There is a combination of inexperience, insanity, and a lack of compassion for real people, combined with a "my gak don't smell" view of the world. I hate very few things, but I really, really dislike that type of world-view.

Preachy thready is preachy. Ride a bike, stop being lazy, you probably need the exercise anyway. If you are going to preach about using gas, DON'T USE GAS.

Don't tell me to eat organic, go farm your own damn veggies and stop funding the gas that is used to transport them to your spank-fest farmers markets.

Exactly. Even driving a car that gets 200mpg is still driving a car that uses fuel.

The only people I want to hear telling me how evil cars are are those people who bike everywhere to work and if they get to loud about what I drive I'll just pop open the door and knock them to the curb.

"Oh sorry buddy, I was trying to exit my vehicle and you got in my way. Hope I didn't break your peace symbol or tear your tie-dyed shirt."

Frazzled wrote:

Grignard wrote:

I used to feel the same way you do Fraz. I've had experiences though that changed my viewpoint. If you have consideration for those around you, most of them will do the same for you.

Well there's your problem right there. I already have empathy, more than most others on this board. I don't want to tell you what to do any more than I want your losers tying to tell me what to do.

But Fraz, everything you do can affect those around you. Should I dump used oil in my yard just because its my property? Should I drive a vehicle with no tail lights when it could endanger others?

I've found out since i've gotten out in the world that the government is sometimes supposed to, well, govern.

People advocating energy efficiency on this thread are hypcrites. They are typing on a computer, burning valuable electricity for absolutely no purpose. Yet they want to tell others what to do.

Frazzled wrote:People advocating energy efficiency on this thread are hypcrites. They are typing on a computer, burning valuable electricity for absolutely no purpose. Yet they want to tell others what to do.

That's no really how hypocrisy works. Most people here are advocating more energy efficient methods of transporation rather than needlessly wasteful largescale automotives, and I know that several are using the reasoning of energy independence and reduction of oil consumption. This computer doesn't run on gas and it doesn't weigh two tonnes.

Strawman much?

It burns electricty. Even if the electricity used is derived from wind or geothermal, that is electricty that could have been used for more important needs. You just helped kill the environment.

Hypocrites.

Frazzled wrote:It burns electricty. Even if the electricity used is derived from wind or geothermal, that is electricty that could have been used for more important needs. You just helped kill the environment.

Hypocrites.

You should probably reprimand yourself for trolling.

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

It makes you impossible to persuade but doesn't leave me with warm feelings toward you

Thats ok. You're new here. Soon you'll understand I'm just a loveable bunny.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:
Fair enough, like I said the climate's not my main qualm... if a car's justifiable then go for it, I just feel like it's acceptable to be preachy on issues such as Earth's limited resources when it comes to the well-being of the species.

You're a student right? Thats sweet. Call me up in 20 years when you've had an actual life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grignard wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Grignard wrote:

I used to feel the same way you do Fraz. I've had experiences though that changed my viewpoint. If you have consideration for those around you, most of them will do the same for you.

Well there's your problem right there. I already have empathy, more than most others on this board. I don't want to tell you what to do any more than I want your losers tying to tell me what to do.

But Fraz, everything you do can affect those around you. Should I dump used oil in my yard just because its my property? Should I drive a vehicle with no tail lights when it could endanger others?

I've found out since i've gotten out in the world that the government is sometimes supposed to, well, govern.

Everything effects everything. Again, so what? Its an excuse for dictatorship which iws what you're advocating.

No wonder we ousted Mayor Ken Livingston in London: His plans to heighten taxes on polluting vehicles were the first step on the road to dictatorship! Where would you say your paranoia toward elected democratic officials actually doing their jobs within their democratic mandate stems from?

It's very convenient to wheel out the dictatorship-card to simply allow yourself to carry on blissfully unaware that your actions affect others...

As for the student point: I guess removed opinions must hurt those in their Ivory Towers? If we're going to say that a Student's opinion is different from those with vested interests, which is true, then surely it's the closest you can get to the Original Position?

Wrexasaur wrote:I had a conversation with a hardcore hippy the other day, and he advised me to stop driving my car, and use public transportation.

It was one of the stupidest conversations I've ever had, and it was promptly followed by advice to eat fish, and if I couldn't afford it, to get it out of a trashcan (as a means to protect the rainforest or some BS). There is a combination of inexperience, insanity, and a lack of compassion for real people, combined with a "my gak don't smell" view of the world. I hate very few things, but I really, really dislike that type of world-view.

Preachy thready is preachy. Ride a bike, stop being lazy, you probably need the exercise anyway. If you are going to preach about using gas, DON'T USE GAS.

Don't tell me to eat organic, go farm your own damn veggies and stop funding the gas that is used to transport them to your spank-fest farmers markets.

Every school of thought will have its fanatics, hippies get on my nerves as well...


And @Frazzled, yes, we're all using computers right now... if you can point me to an alternative way to game and access the internet, then I'll take it on-board, just as I'd hope you'd get out of your hummer when I point you to a sensible car.

Fraz, thats a bad analogy. I'm not suggesting giving up our modern way of life. Only a radical primitivist would suggest that.

Its not, you can't use a computer because its wasteful for no good reason, its " lets use more efficient computers, and enact reasonable regulation to encourage that"

Actually, I'm less in to negative reinforcement and more into positive. Like, " lets give people tax breaks for buying green". Rather than " You have to do this or you're fined".

Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

Henners91 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In lieu of the Libertarian response, I'm going counter even more simply: "What in the feth gives you the right to tell me what to do? Mind your own goddam business."

I actually wanted to get a HUMMER H2, tonka yellow, with the giant wheels, but the timing just wasn't right.

@OP: When you grow up and start having friends and family and kids and relatives, then you can talk.

As for me, hopefully I'll have the sense of mind to just purchase something like the station wagon described above if it's strictly necessary?

Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In lieu of the Libertarian response, I'm going counter even more simply: "What in the feth gives you the right to tell me what to do? Mind your own goddam business."

I actually wanted to get a HUMMER H2, tonka yellow, with the giant wheels, but the timing just wasn't right.

@OP: When you grow up and start having friends and family and kids and relatives, then you can talk.

As for me, hopefully I'll have the sense of mind to just purchase something like the station wagon described above if it's strictly necessary?

Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

I can fit 5 people in my Civic SI DD

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:It burns electricty. Even if the electricity used is derived from wind or geothermal, that is electricty that could have been used for more important needs. You just helped kill the environment.

Hypocrites.

You should probably reprimand yourself for trolling.

"You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!"
-Jack Nicholson, playing some guy in some movie about some thing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In lieu of the Libertarian response, I'm going counter even more simply: "What in the feth gives you the right to tell me what to do? Mind your own goddam business."

I actually wanted to get a HUMMER H2, tonka yellow, with the giant wheels, but the timing just wasn't right.

@OP: When you grow up and start having friends and family and kids and relatives, then you can talk.

As for me, hopefully I'll have the sense of mind to just purchase something like the station wagon described above if it's strictly necessary?

Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Zafira

Seats seven and my mum picked hers up for £3,000.

Dunno if that's what you'd call a station wagon, mind.

Grignard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In lieu of the Libertarian response, I'm going counter even more simply: "What in the feth gives you the right to tell me what to do? Mind your own goddam business."

I actually wanted to get a HUMMER H2, tonka yellow, with the giant wheels, but the timing just wasn't right.

@OP: When you grow up and start having friends and family and kids and relatives, then you can talk.

As for me, hopefully I'll have the sense of mind to just purchase something like the station wagon described above if it's strictly necessary?

Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

I can fit 5 people in my Civic SI DD

This is why they make minivans.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Grignard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In lieu of the Libertarian response, I'm going counter even more simply: "What in the feth gives you the right to tell me what to do? Mind your own goddam business."

I actually wanted to get a HUMMER H2, tonka yellow, with the giant wheels, but the timing just wasn't right.

@OP: When you grow up and start having friends and family and kids and relatives, then you can talk.

As for me, hopefully I'll have the sense of mind to just purchase something like the station wagon described above if it's strictly necessary?

Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

I can fit 5 people in my Civic SI DD

This is why they make minivans.

In fairness some people use their SUV. When I had my Xterra I actually used the 4x4.

Henners91 wrote:Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

mmm, words from the young who are being subsidized by working class people to go to school. So young, so innocent, so naive, but so very ernest.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't farmed plant oils still a net negative for energy consumption? As in they are actually significantly worse than oil which, while finite, is an amazing net gain on energy produced?

Corn-based Ethanol? Yes, it's one of the biggest wastes of money one could imagine. The US would be better off banning Corn-based Ethanol and replacing it with more oil.
____

Grignard wrote:I don't like people telling me what to do either, but the fact is that fuel consumption, carbon emissions, and pollutants effect everyone,

So? Tax the hell out of gas and people will fall into line all by themselves.

If it really were national policy and priority, US gas would be over $5/gal ($3 in taxes) with at least half of it set aside for mass transit.

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

mmm, words from the young who are being subsidized by working class people to go to school. So young, so innocent, so naive, but so very ernest.

Everyone gets benefits from taxes, regardless of whether you are working class, poor, or wealthy.

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

mmm, words from the young who are being subsidized by working class people to go to school. So young, so innocent, so naive, but so very ernest.

Says the lawyer whose wages are dependent on the exact same system.

Poor subsidizing the rich who will then complain about them and their boorish behavior, I so love it.

Poor subsidizing the rich who will then complain about them and their boorish behavior, I so love it.

Grignard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good luck seating 6 adults/car seats in that station wagon...

They stopped making rear-facing jump seats a while ago. To my recollection, only the Mercedes E-class wagon has them, which means you now have zero cargo capacity in the vehicle. The *base* sticker on an E350 is $56k USD. Good luck getting one off the lot for less than $70k USD.

For that same money, you can buy a Chevy Traverse ($40k, seats 7) *and* a Chevy Camaro ($30k, V6).

I can fit 5 people in my Civic SI DD

That's nice, but I need to seat 6 when the in-laws stay with us. That means I need 3 rows, which means SUV / CUV / minivan.
____

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

mmm, words from the young who are being subsidized by working class people to go to school. So young, so innocent, so naive, but so very ernest.

Exactly. When Henners starts having to work and pay his own way, then pay for a few extra mouths at the table, he'll change his tune in a hurry.

Corn-based Ethanol? Yes, it's one of the biggest wastes of money one could imagine. The US would be better off banning Corn-based Ethanol and replacing it with more oil.

Agreed. Ethanol, along with hydrogen fuel cells were just a flash game played by the auto and oil companies so that they could pretend they were on the leading edge of energy alternatives. Neither was ever feasible and ethanol has been more destructive to the U.S. and india food industries than oil ever could have been. Batteries and plugs are the future of automobiles, and thats not even up for debate. It never really was. Pure electricity is the only demonstrable alternative and has been for years, which is exactly why the shell game has avoided it for so long (oh goody, flex fuel engines sure are useful!).

So? Tax the hell out of gas and people will fall into line all by themselves.

If it really were national policy and priority, US gas would be over $5/gal ($3 in taxes) with at least half of it set aside for mass transit.

This is where democracy gets in the way. The average consumer would never go for that.

Orlanth wrote:
People alrerady have cars that run on rapeseed, there is the cae of a chip shop owner who clarifies the oil from his fat fryer and uses it to run his deisel powered car. However here is part of the clue, he still has to pay tax duty on the oil he recycles. The system is not set up for alternative oils, whether this is due to oil company interference os just government dogma I do not know and cant really guess. You can argue against recycled oils being made tax free because plant oils pollute as much if not more than gasoline and not all plant oil motor cars are recycling, most in fact grow the oil to burn as fuel without having another function between.

Holy crap, I can't believe that this is real.

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Oooh and I'll add: Does it really grind your gears SO much when people ask you to stop being selfish pointlessly? I don't see how burning excessive amounts of fuel is different from talking too loudly in a restaurant...

mmm, words from the young who are being subsidized by working class people to go to school. So young, so innocent, so naive, but so very ernest.

I am? I'm at university and paying it for myself thank you very much. As for my prior education, granted... but I really don't understand what you're saying: Me, a student who did very well at school shouldn't be financed by the state? Are you in favour of privatised education? Say goodbye to your skilled economy... Can I refer to you as "so mature, so arrogant, so ignorant and so very selfish?

Grignard wrote:I don't like people telling me what to do either, but the fact is that fuel consumption, carbon emissions, and pollutants effect everyone,

So? Tax the hell out of gas and people will fall into line all by themselves.

Henners91 wrote:

I am? I'm at university and paying it for myself thank you very much. As for my prior education, granted... but I really don't understand what you're saying: Me, a student who did very well at school shouldn't be financed by the state?

Are you getting financial aid? How about subsidized loans? Is it a public school? If any of those are yes then no you're not.

Its not "the state." There's no uncle State. Its tax payers. Wake up youngin! You're daydreaming about your coeds again and not paying attention in class.

Can I refer to you as "so older than dirt, so arrogant, so ignorant and so very selfish?

Fixed your quote. People of my age preferred the term "wizened American" thank you very much.