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Lukus83 wrote:But units inside aren't technically deepstriking, they are disembarking. Nowhere in the rules does it say that units disembarking from a transport (and yes spods are dedicated transports if I recall correctly) into difficult terrain take a dangerous terrain check.

That's where it all gets sticky. It's not the disembarking that triggers the Dangerous Terrain test, it's arriving by Deep Strike that does it.

Whether or not the unit disembarks, it is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike (due to the rule I quoted earlier).


So technically, a unit arriving in a Deep Striking transport and landing in Difficult Terrain would have to test for Dangerous Terrain, as it has arrived by Deep Strike and entered Difficult Terrain.


Clearly, that's a little silly. The models inside a Land Raider (as someone mentioned before) are hardly likely to be affected directly by the vehicle landing in some prickles. It's easier to consider the rule affecting models in a Drop Pod or Spod, as they are forced to immediately jump out, and so are on the table in the same turn as the Deep Strike occurs.

Whether or not it should affect them, or models that are still safely inside their transport, is another matter entirely. Personally, I'm inclined to go with the RAW being 'yes, they test' but the (IMO) RAI being 'no, they don't'...

@ Crowle:

But the unit inside DID arrive via deep strike. Both the main rules and the SM codex (for drop pods) say so. That's the point you're ignoring.

Main rules, page 95:
Models arriving via deep strike treat all difficult terrain
as dangerous terrain.

In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

To repeat it again. The models inside a deep strking transport also count as deep striking. It's right there in the main rules. The SM codex also says it,
"A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot assault in the turn it arrives."

So let's see, the unit is arriving via Deep Strike. It's ending it's Deep Strike in Difficult terrain. I really don't see how you can say they do not take the test.

I think what bothers me about this is the phrase 'Models arriving via deep strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain'

Does that mean running a DS unit into cover during shooting triggers dangerous terrain tests, or is it just when they arrive themselves. In my opinion the model is placed on the table (the pod in this case) and the passenger models are not in dangerous terrain (they are in the pod).

The fact that they must immediately disembark, means they are done deep striking (since you cannot disembark while DS'ing).

Note: Previous post I mentioned the unit in the pod could not assault because the vehicle moved at cruising speed, technically correct but the pod is open topped (oops!) the BRB though prohibits this in addition to the codex so it is mentioned in two other places. Just wanted to correct my mistake.

I'm also inclined to agree that RAI is no. As you said it's sticky, and I will be sure to discuss it with my gaming group before I make a decision.

OK, and explain away why Mystics can detect and shoot at the disembarking unit that just used deep strike...............

Like it or not, the unit that disembarks counts as deep striking. That's why it cannot assault even tho the pod is open topped. That's why Mystics can detect and shoot. The main rules and SM codex have already been quoted, here's a couple more from the FAQs:

Daemonhunters (to reinforce the point abopve):
Q. Do Inquisitorial Mystics allow “free shots” at
units arriving by Drop Pod?
A. Yes. The shooting is resolved after the Drop
Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked.
Either the Drop Pod or the disembarked unit may
be the targeted, but not both.


DA:
Q. Can troops deploying from a Dark Angels
Drop Pod assault on the turn it lands? Unlike
the Space Marines and Black Templars codexes,
it does not state you cannot.
A. No the embarked troops can’t assault, as they
have deployed by deep strike that turn and
troops that deep strike can’t assault.

So like it or not, all the rules point to the disembarking unit counting as deep striking. Which means they test.

So like it or not, all the rules point to the disembarking unit counting as deep striking. Which means they test.

Why does it mean they test? When they arrive via deepstrike are they in difficult terrain? No they are in the pod.

Are they still considered to be deepstriking when they disembark? I don't know can you provide a rules quote that tells us whether this is a seperate action or not?

The rulebook on page 95 hints that this is a separate action when it states the unit can not move further except "to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle". To me that says that the disembarkation is a different action and thus would no longer be done under the DS restrictions.

Unless you are claiming that a model that deep strikes counts difficult terrain as dangerous for the rest of the game?

And how do you refute the Mystics?

And how do you refute the Mystics?

I don't refute the mystics, mystics allow you to target deep striking units and units in drop pods are deep striking and the FAQ specifically stated that you can target the unit or the transport as the shooting is "resolved after the Drop Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked."

I'm still not seeing anywhere that the disembarking is considered part of the deep strike.

How would units disembarking/deploying from a pod/spore take difficult terrain tests then? Would you roll the difficult terrain test and ignore any result higher than a 2? If you decide that the unit just doesn't take the difficult terrain test and just deploy the models within 2" of the pd/spore why would you then go on to make a dangerous terrain test?

So you admit that the unit arrives via Deep Strike, and yet you claim it does not have to take dangerous terrain tests for deep striking into difficult terrain? Odd..............

The discussion is on Dangerous Terrain here Arsch, so I think I know what you are getting at but you never take Difficult Terrain for the 2" disembarkation.

Really good point with the Mystics Don_Mondo, one could argue that the FAQ is a set of house rules supplied by GW! (but that wouldn't accomplish anything...).

I would argue on both counts, though, that the unit did not deep strike into difficult terrain, it is merely disembarking into it. I would also argue that the unit only treats difficult terrain as dangerous terrain for the purposes of the deep striking action itself and not for any other moves like disembarking, running, et cetera.

So you admit that the unit arrives via Deep Strike, and yet you claim it does not have to take dangerous terrain tests for deep striking into difficult terrain? Odd..............

Are you being deliberately dumb or are you just ignoring what I've written?

Yes the unit arrives by deepstrike. Yes the unit would have to take a dangerous terrain check if it deep struck into difficult terrain. But that is pretty unlikely since it deep strikes into a drop pod and then disembarks into whatever terrain.

How is that difficult to understand? Yes they are arriving by deepstrike. But no they are not deep striking into difficult terrain, they are instead disembarking into difficult terrain...

Maybe because the rules say "units arriving via Deep Strike treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous" ????

Maybe because the rules say "units arriving via Deep Strike treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous" ????

Who's contested this? Are you claiming that a unit that deepstrikes will count difficult terrain as dangerous for the rest of the game?

If not then surely only during the deepstrike can this clause apply. We are given no other information it either applies for ever or for just during the deepstrike.

Hence whether the disembark is consider part of the deepstrike will determine whether or not you take the dangerous terrain test.

Exactly,StD has it. Did they ARRIVE via Deep Strike? That's the only requirement. Yes, they did. So they test. It's a simple yes or no proposition. Did they or didn't they? If they did, they do.If they didn't, they don't.
And you've stated that they did...................

FlingitNow wrote:

Maybe because the rules say "units arriving via Deep Strike treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous" ????

Who's contested this? Are you claiming that a unit that deepstrikes will count difficult terrain as dangerous for the rest of the game?

Yeah, now you're just being ridiculous. That's like the old "If a heavy weapon moves it cannot fire for the rest of the game" argument. The disembark is part of their deep strike. It's how they arrive via deep strike. And that's the bootm line. They arrived via deep strike. You said so yourself.

The disembark is part of their deep strike.

Why? If a Unit deepstrikes inside a Landraider/LSS and then disembarks is that disembark part of their deep strike?

Why yes, it is. And it is because the rules on page 95 say so...............
Did they arrive in a deep striking vehicle? If so,and they choose to disembark, then the rules on page 95 kick in. If they stay in the vehicle, I'd say no test (but I don't think Doom of Malantai can hit a unit in a vehcile either).

Why yes, it is. And it is because the rules on page 95 say so...............

Where please quote me the section that says that disembarking is deepstriking?

Did they arrive in a deep striking vehicle? If so,and they choose to disembark, then the rules on page 95 kick in.

So they take dangerous terrain tests for the rest of the game. They will have still arrived in a deep striking vehicle and wil have still choosen to disembark in later turns...

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Maybe because the rules say "units arriving via Deep Strike treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous" ????

Bad logic. The unit arrives in the Drop Pod, and disembarks into the Difficult Terrrain. The Drop Pod takes the test.

In a similar logic to what you have presented: units passing through Dangerous Terrain take Dangerous Terrain tests. So a Chimera filled with Stormtroopers passing through it would have to test for both the troopers inside and the vehicle because the "unit is moving into difficult terrain"? Your logic would play it as such, but would you play it that way?

Of course not. The rules do not present terrain tests while embarked, and the squad in question disembarking is not moving into the terrain (in the case of the Drop Pod, it is mandatory.)

Che-Vito wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Maybe because the rules say "units arriving via Deep Strike treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous" ????

Bad logic. The unit arrives in the Drop Pod, and disembarks into the Difficult Terrrain. The Drop Pod takes the test.

If only the drop pod rules didn't say that the disembarking unit arrived by deep strike, you would have a case. But since it does, you don't.

And of course, page 95, main rules, already been quoted several times, show that the units embarked in a deep striking unit are also a deep striking unit. The disembark move means absolutely nothing to the deep strike/dangerous terrain resolution. The unit arrived via deep strike. They take the test.

And round and round we go, answering the same questions over and over.........................

The unit arrived via deep strike. They take the test.

And round and round we go, answering the same questions over and over.........................

But you still haven't answered the question of where you are getting that the disembarkation is part of the deepstrike?

If you can prove that then they have to test otherwise it is still an unkown. I have illustrated why I don't beleive it is considered part of the deepstrike with the quote from pg 95. You've shown nothing to back up your claim that it is part of the deepstrike.

It's been quoted for you. Page 95. Here, I'll post it again:

Deep Strike rules:
"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

What units? Deep Striking units that are using a deep striking vehicle to arrive via deep strike. Got it yet?

It's been quoted for you. Page 95.

Where on pg95? I've not seen it there quote the rule or text that states this.

Yes you have, you're just blatantly ignoring it.

Yes you have, you're just blatantly ignoring it.

Then post it to prove me wrong. I'm guessing you can't because it isn't there...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry didn't see your edit. That rule doesn't support your claim though it if anything supoports mine. It says they may not move further except to disembark from a DS tranport vehicle so it is saying that the disembarkation is a further move and hence not part of the deepstrike.

How are you reading that rule to make it mean that the disembark is part of the deepstrike?

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on what the rules say. Either that or just keep reposting the same posts over and over again.

Synopsis:
To me, the "In the movement phase" bit proves that the disembarking unit counts as deep striking and that the disembark is irrelevant. The Drop Pod rules also state that the unit arrives via Deep Strike, making the disembark irrelevant.
You think that the fact that they disembark from a deep striking vehicle somehow changes their status from 'arrive via deep strike' to something else, negating the dangerous terrain tests for arriving via deep strike.

To me, the "In the movement phase" bit proves that the disembarking unit counts as deep striking and that the disembark is irrelevant.

What does that even make sense to you? The in the movement phase is clarify WHEN the following restriction applies it then gives that restriction, that you can not make further movements (i.e no new actions) other than to disembark (1 allowed new action, thus it is not the same action).

The Drop Pod rules also state that the unit arrives via Deep Strike, making the disembark irrelevant.

Without the disembark the models aren't in dangerous terrain so how could it possibly be irrelevant?

You think that the fact that they disembark from a deep striking vehicle somehow changes their status from 'arrive via deep strike' to something else, negating the dangerous terrain tests for arriving via deep strike.

No the fact that the deepstrike has finished is what has changed their status away from "arriving via deep strike". Otherwise how do you determine when that status ends? No where else details it so they are either arriving via deep strike for the rest of the game or they are arriving via deep strike only during the process of their deep strike.

I'll break it down for you:

1. You place the drop pod.
2. You roll for scatter and replace the DP accordingly.
3. You check if the DP is in difficult terrain if so it takes a dangerous terrain test.

That is the deepstrike completed and at this point the troops are still embarked. Then:

4. The troops perform their forced disembark, as they are no longer arriving via a deep strike (they have now arrived via deep strike) they no longer treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

5. If the unit then runs in the shooting phase it would again not treat difficult terrain as dangerous...

Does that explain it to you?

Dude, I'm done arguing. To me it says they arrive via deep strike, and that is all that is required. You disagree. OK, I can live with it. Can you?

Dude, I'm done arguing. To me it says they arrive via deep strike, and that is all that is required. You disagree. OK, I can live with it. Can you?

OK but I doubt many people will play with you if once their DSing troops arrive they have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous fo rthe rest of the game.

I assume that "arriving via deep strike" refers to units that are actaully artriving via deep strike rather than units that have some point in the past arrived via deep strike. But maybe that just me.