Deep Striking and Drop Pods

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**don_mondo**

FlingitNow wrote:
Dude, I'm done arguing. To me it says they arrive via deep strike, and that is all that is required. You disagree. OK, I can live with it. Can you?

OK but I doubt many people will play with you if once their DSing troops arrive they have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous fo rthe rest of the game.

Read my posts. Did I ever once say I played it that way? I don't. All I said is that this is what the rules say. Quit making assumptions.

**FlingitNow**

Read my posts. Did I ever once say I played it that way? I don't. All I said is that this is what the rules say. Quit making assumptions.

But you didn't say what the rules say the rules require the unit to be "arriving via deep strike". You said here:

To me it says they arrive via deep strike, and that is all that is required.

You've removed the continuing action clause of arriving to change it to arrive. Thus the restriction will last all game because at no point will the unit not have arrived via deepstrike. You also said that the disembark is irrelevant as to whether it is part of the deepstrike action or not thus you are only requiring that the unit has arrived by DS not that the unit is in the process of arriving via deep strike. So again you have claimed that the restriction would last all game.

This is what you are saying; that you don't care whether the disembarking action (the one that sees the unit move into the difficult terrain) is part of the deep strike they still have to take the test because they still arrived via deep strike. So thus you are saying that having arrived via deep strike in the past is enough to make them test now, therefore the restriction lasts all game.

**solkan**

There's actually a related issue for this which is a bit more important to me.

A unit deep strikes into difficult terrain, and they have to take dangerous terrain tests because they arrive. But then the shooting phase comes around and the unit runs. Do they have to take another dangerous terrain test, since they arrived that turn?

This gets back to the deep striking land raider and drop pod guys, too. At T0 they arrive via deep strike and are still on board. At T1 they disembark from the vehicle. At T2 they run.

So when does it stop being dangerous terrain for the deep striking unit?

**vinbreau**

FlingitNow wrote:
To me, the "In the movement phase" bit proves that the disembarking unit counts as deep striking and that the disembark is irrelevant.

What does that even make sense to you? The in the movement phase is clarify WHEN the following restriction applies it then gives that restriction, that you can not make further movements (i.e no new actions) other than to disembark (1 allowed new action, thus it is not the same action).

The Drop Pod rules also state that the unit arrives via Deep Strike, making the disembark irrelevant.

Without the disembark the models aren't in dangerous terrain so how could it possibly be irrelevant?

You think that the fact that they disembark from a deep striking vehicle somehow changes their status from 'arrive via deep strike' to something else, negating the dangerous terrain tests for arriving via deep strike.

No the fact that the deepstrike has finished is what has changed their status away from "arriving via deep strike". Otherwise how do you determine when that status ends? No where else details it so they are either arriving via deep strike for the rest of the game or they are arriving via deep strike only during the process of their deep strike.

I'll break it down for you:

1. You place the drop pod.
2. You roll for scatter and replace the DP accordingly.
3. You check if the DP is in difficult terrain if so it takes a dangerous terrain test.

That is the deepstrike completed and at this point the troops are still embarked. Then:

4. The troops perform their forced disembark, as they are no longer arriving via a deep strike (they have now arrived via deep strike) they no longer treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

5. If the unit then runs in the shooting phase it would again not treat difficult terrain as dangerous...

Does that explain it to you?

This is the most logical interpretation of the rules as I see it. Doing it any other way puts the squad in double jeopardy and forces them to essentially take 2 tests, which is not what I think was intended in the rules.

**FlingitNow**

There's actually a related issue for this which is a bit more important to me.

A unit deep strikes into difficult terrain, and they have to take dangerous terrain tests because they arrive. But then the shooting phase comes around and the unit runs. Do they have to take another dangerous terrain test, since they arrived that turn?

This gets back to the deep striking land raider and drop pod guys, too. At T0 they arrive via deep strike and are still on board. At T1 they disembark from the vehicle. At T2 they run.

So when does it stop being dangerous terrain for the deep striking unit?

That is the problem with Don Mondo's interpretation you have to test for running and in fact for moving ever again as there is no point at which the restriction is lifted.

However if you read "arriving via deepstrike" to mean the time period during which you are actually performing the action of arriving via deepstrike you'd just test the first time when you arrive. But would not test if you're disembarked from a DSing vehicle or later ran or obviously at any time after the DS action has been completed.

**VoxDei**

don_mondo wrote:All you have to do is ask yourself a couple of questions.

Did the unit arrive via Deep Strike? Yes or no?

Wrong question. The rule doesn't say a unit deep striking treats it as dangerous terrain...it's says a MODEL deepstrikeing...now the Unit was in a transport.

Is a unit in a transport considered a model? Does a transport entering dangerous terrain require the unit inside to roll for dangerous terrain?

**don_mondo**

Sigh. And if the unit arrived via deep strike, then how did the individual models that the unit is composed of arrive?

And on the "How long does it last" question. Get real. We all know that it applies to their arrival and only to their arrival and does not carry over to any successive moves/turns. Or at least, any reasonable person knows that. Just as we all know that a heavy weapon that moved in turn 1 can fire in turn 2 if it doesn't move in turn 2. Just as we know that embarked passengers that couldn't fire in turn 1 because the transport moved too far can shoot in successive turns if the transport doesn't move too far. I'm sorry, but throwing up idiotic (IMO at least) smokescreens to distract from what the rules say is not a well thought out argument.
Again, to me, what the rules say. Unit arrives via deep strike, it tests. Units that arrive via a deep striking vehicle and that disembark from said vehicle are considered to arrive via deep strike, so they test.

And this is my last post in this thread. Have fun.

**FlingitNow**

We all know that it applies to their arrival and only to their arrival and does not carry over to any successive moves/turns. Or at least, any reasonable person knows that.

So you finally accept they don't test when copming out of the drop pod? That is a successive move after the inital arrival...

**VoxDei**

don_mondo wrote:Sigh. And if the unit arrived via deep strike, then how did the individual models that the unit is composed of arrive?

That is the question. Is a unit in a transport protected from dangerous terrain? The rule is all models entering dangerous terrain must make a test. Is a unit inside a transport a model? Does it have to take a dangerous terrain test when the transport enters dangerous terrain?

**calypso2ts**

The models in a transport are clearly protected, the question really is - Is disembarking the pod part of the DS move.

DonMondo believes RAW it is, Fling it does not. I think it can be agreed the rules are loose enough to allow for a logical argument either way.

Also, a bit in Don's defense, he did say he does not play it that way, just that he interprets them that way RAW not RAI.

**Captain Idaeus**

If I am interpreting this correctly a unit arriving via deep-strike treats difficult terrain as dangerous terrain. My question Is as follows, is the unit in question arriving via deep-strike, or is it in fact arriving via transport? does it say that units disembarking from a drop pod count as deep striking?

I may have overlooked something, but I have always interpreted it as the models in the drop pod have been safe from the dangerous terrain.

**insaniak**

don_mondo wrote: Units that arrive via a deep striking vehicle and that disembark from said vehicle are considered to arrive via deep strike, so they test.

That's the point that I was trying to make before, though: It's not the disembarking that counts. The rule requiring them to test for dangerous terrain is the one that applies to models arriving by deep strike. The deep strike happens before they disembark.

The act of disembarking does not trigger a dangerous terrain test, as the terrain is only treated as dangerous as the unit arrives. And they arrived at the same time as the pod. They immediately disembark... but that's still something that happens after they 'arrive by deep strike'.

The issue here isn't an issue specifically with deep striking... it's simply the old issue of the rules not actually telling us that units in vehicles can't be affected by outside effects.

Ultimately, IMO, it's exactly the same as a vehicle moving into dangerous terrain in any other fashion... by RAW, the unit would have to test, because they are moving into the terrain. But nobody would actually play that way.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Idaeus wrote: My question Is as follows, is the unit in question arriving via deep-strike, or is it in fact arriving via transport?

It's doing both. The deep strike rules (and the drop pod rules) as quoted earlier make it clear that a unit arriving in a deep striking transport is also deep striking.

does it say that units disembarking from a drop pod count as deep striking?

They count as deep striking when they arrive, because they have arrived in a deep striking transport. The act of disembarking does not count as deep striking... the deep strike happens immediately before they disembark.

**FlingitNow**

Ultimately, IMO, it's exactly the same as a vehicle moving into dangerous terrain in any other fashion... by RAW, the unit would have to test, because they are moving into the terrain. But nobody would actually play that way.

I disagree due to the model/unit difference. The unit is moving into difficult terrain but none of the models are as we don't know where the models are (they're not on the board). Essentially it is the same clause that allows The Doom to effect transported uniots that allows transported models to remain safe from dangerous terrain...

**insaniak**

Actually, that works for me. Good show.

**FlingitNow**

Cheers Although I've been arguing the other way most of the thread I'm actually not 100% convinced the disembark is separate from the deepstrike by RaW or RaI.

Which is essentially the crux of the argument. For me the argument boils down to this:

The rules on page 95 say you can't perform a further movement except to disembark. Which emplies that the disembark is not part of the deep strike. There is no other mention of disembarking in the deep strike rules which again implies it is not part of a deep strike.

However the more general rules mean that you make 1 movement action a movement phase. Thus your movement action is arriving via deepstrike and if you are to disembark that must be part of that action. However this could be overridden by the explicit permission to make a further action in the DS rules or in fact the forcing or a further action in the DP rules. As we know forced actions are always allowed in addition to normal ones (i.e. unit moves into dangerous terrain takes 25% casualties and then proceeds to fall back).

Because no one has actually tried arguing that perspective against me (that it is all one movement), I'm left with my own interpretation that the two actions are indeed distinct.

For me that is what this boils down to if they are distinct then no test for the unit otherwise you have to test.