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Marines couldn't do proper espionage (IE, spying and infiltration of enemy organizations) even without power armor. They're too damn big and quite obviously not human.

Maybe they could hide and watch/listen, but there's only so much you can get from that.

It's pretty easy to remove (armour). All marine chapters I've read about wear a body suit. When off duty, they wear robes and tunics. They actually do this very frequently-even some of the traitor legions do this. They take off their armour in Thousand Sons (Graham Mcneill) Brothers of the Snake (Dan Abnett) Soul Hunter (Aaron Dembeski Bowden) Salamander (Nick Kyme) Storm of Iron (Graham Mcneill) Grey Knights (Ben counter) and Hammer Of Daemons (Ben counter) Horus rising (Abnett). The list could continue. Also, Marines are MUCH better at infiltrating in comparison to guard. Ill cite sources later- gotta go now

In the Guard omnibus the last story (cannot for the life of me remember the name) depicts a Marine out of armor wearing a tunic/robe of some sort. I'm thinking a toga!

SM TOGA SM TOGA, nice ring to it don't ya think?

Also, Marines are MUCH better at infiltrating in comparison to guard

No, they aren't. Eight foot genetically modified monstrosities do not fit in to an ordinary human population. Indeed, if humans saw a Marine out of their power armor I imagine they'd think they were mutants and react very poorly to them.

Think undercover cops-- they dress as they're supposed to dress in order to fit in to the organization they're infiltrating. Now imagine if that undercover cop was eight feet tall, with freakish musculature and blatant mutation along the spine. It ain't gonna work.

But they could bring a leafy stick to hide behind? No one would recognize a Space Marine without Power Armour hiding behind a nice, leafy stick!

This is a Space Marine dressed undercover to blend into the normal population.

No. Here is an marine out of armour:

Melissia wrote:

Also, Marines are MUCH better at infiltrating in comparison to guard

No, they aren't. Eight foot genetically modified monstrosities do not fit in to an ordinary human population. Indeed, if humans saw a Marine out of their power armor I imagine they'd think they were mutants and react very poorly to them.

Think undercover cops-- they dress as they're supposed to dress in order to fit in to the organization they're infiltrating. Now imagine if that undercover cop was eight feet tall, with freakish musculature and blatant mutation along the spine. It ain't gonna work.

Read Legion. The Alpha Legion to this day never even fights. All they do is Espionage.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Read Legion. The Alpha Legion to this day never even fights. All they do is Espionage.

No, because I do not like to read stupid.

A Marine has as much chance of fitting in with the day to day lives of common humans as an Ork does. I don't care what craptastic BL author of the month says otherwise, it is a biological impossibility for Marines to do such undercover work amongst ordinary humans-- they're too damn huge, they're too damn muscular, and they're too damn obviously mutated beyond human. Just the black carapace alone would show that, making Marines singularly unsuitable for, say, infiltrating cults and uncovering their connections That is why the Inquisition doesn't USE Marines for that purpose-- they SUCK at it.

Melissia wrote:No, because I do not like to read stupid.

A Marine has as much chance of fitting in with the day to day lives of common humans as an Ork does. I don't care what craptastic BL author of the month says otherwise, it is a biological impossibility for Marines to do such undercover work amongst ordinary humans-- they're too damn huge, they're too damn muscular, and they're too damn obviously mutated beyond human. Just the black carapace alone would show that, making Marines singularly unsuitable for, say, infiltrating cults and uncovering their connections That is why the Inquisition doesn't USE Marines for that purpose-- they SUCK at it.

No, the Inquisition doesn't use Marines for espionage because the Marines refuse to do espionage for the Inquisition.

The Alpha Legion is, once again, an entirely espionage based legion. Even now. In Legion, Alpha Marines stage an ambush, using human soldiers as bait, during which they masquerade as part of the enemy force. Granted, that disguise calls for them to wear robes which entirely conceal their features.

The average Space Marine is what, eight feet tall in their socks? And built like a brick wall. But in an Imperium of a million worlds, that kind of thing can be passed off. They certainly won't be average, but neither are they impossible. Anyone from a high-gravity world would be similarly built, though probably shorter. Anyone from a low gravity world would probably be just as tall or taller, though more slender.

However, I would agree with you that Space Marines are not the ones you turn to when you want an insider in a cult. What they CAN be very good at is avoiding notice entirely. Those Space Marines that specialize in stealth get very, very good at it. They will still stick out in a crowd, though, so I would imagine that Alpha Legion operatives basically avoid any notice as much as they can, masquerade as loyal Space Marines when they must, and otherwise act through cultists and other human operatives as much as possible.

BeRzErKeR wrote:No, the Inquisition doesn't use Marines for espionage because the Marines refuse to do espionage for the Inquisition.

The Marines don't "refuse" to do it, because they aren't ASKED to. They are not the ideal candidates for it. When the Inqusitiion wants Marines, they don't want them for infiltration. They want them for killing gak dead, because that's what Marines are good at. Not infiltration and investigation.

Melissia wrote:Marines couldn't do proper espionage (IE, spying and infiltration of enemy organizations) even without power armor. They're too damn big and quite obviously not human.

Maybe they could hide and watch/listen, but there's only so much you can get from that.

The way its depicted is that they are usually (at least within the Book 'Legion' , which i actually found more entertaining then your average book by Michale Crichton - but since he went loopy near the end, perhaps he's no longer a valid author to compare too ) with an entourage of normal humans, and they themselves are more or less what they are - abnormally large humans. I mean, its not like in our own time we dont have the occasional human who is just HUGE (take Shaq, for example) - and when with a few normal sized people, and shown to be interacting with them just fine...

...sometimes it can help make a disguise in plain sight. Particularly in the era of the great crusade, when most of the populations who might be on the wrong end of the various sights of Imperium owned weapons would never have known about the concept of a space marine to begin with.

And regardless of how well a Space marine may or may not conduct espionage, there is certainly validity to Space Marines not wearing thier armor all the time. (I also think you take the term 'Black carapace' too literally- I had always been under the impression it was a series of implants under the skin, not over the skin, and connecting into the nervous system, amongst any other claims of what it dose)

*Points at the Space Marine scouts*

Pajamas... or maybe a loin cloth.

SM scouts are also not yet full Astartes, and furthermore, they can hide and sneak, but it could hardly be argued that they can do investigative or undercover work.

That's what the Arbites and the Inquisition are for.

*shrugs* Well, I don't know then. I've never had the feeling that Space Marines in general cared much for finding out exactly what they shoot at as long as some guy/gal of authority asks them to shoot.

I haven't read any novells, I have never held a Space Marine codex (and I'm proud of it!) so what they wear under their power armour is beyond me... I'd guess, though, that the Ultramarines at least wear either pink underwear, or some white ones with red hearts on.

I don't care so much either, because I'm not so keen on thinking about what any man wears under whatever I see him wearing..

Don't mind me. I just tend to react poorly to Marine fanboys saying "my faction can do everything better than everyone else". No, they can't

Arbites spend their entire lives investigating and rooting out criminals and cultists, it's their job. They aren't warriors per se, though they can certain put up a damned good fight as far as humans go; rather, what they are is a combination of the FBI, CSI, and Judge Dredd. Which is probably part of the reason why I like them, as Judge Dredd is awesome (Despite the movie's attempt at ruining him).

Marines spend their entire time training for battle, or actually in battle. In the arena of battle, with their quick decapitating strikes, it can be argued that they have very few peers. Though I would argue that the Guard is much better at a stand up fight, if only because they don't care about casualties, whereas the loss of ten Marines is a pretty big loss to the chapter in comparison to the loss of a few thousand Guardsmen.

The smart authors know this and depict Marines doing what they do best, dropping in on an important location, killing everything that moves, and then leaving for the next objective before a reprisal can be launched. The gakky ones depict them doing other things which they want to claim is heroic, but doesn't really make sense, like half a squad trying to hold the line against a few thousand Orks. Which really should end up with a lot of dead Orks, this is true, but no surviving Marines. Orks are not pushovers.

Okay, sorry. Done ranting.

Melissia wrote:Hah, so they wear leotards!

That wasn't a leotard. The Marine in the picture is Mentor Legion. The body of the armour is dark green.

One day I'm going to have to challange you, Melissia, on text-wall-building.. *grin*

Of course everyone thinks their guys are the best at everything.. But let's just all face it, the Night Lords are better! (Couldn't resist, don't kill me!)

If I were to hire a spy, the Space Marines wouldn't be the first to pop up in my mind..

insaniak wrote:

Melissia wrote:Hah, so they wear leotards!

That wasn't a leotard. The Marine in the picture is Mentor Legion. The body of the armour is dark green.

Really? Hrm. That's an... interesting... scheme...

Espionage doesn't mean hiding in plain sight.


marines have senses bordering on Animalistic. if they can find a place they won't be visable then they can do it.

they can hear very well, they could eavesdrop on a conversation and be accross the street.

Not all Subtrafuge missions will be in populated areas. they will scout things out if there arn't any scout squads avaliable.


there are Humans in some portions of the Galaxy that do reach Astasrtes size. in the Ravenor omnibus there are people who are from a certain planet who reach the same height as a Space Marine, and thats just the women.

Edit: Yeah that.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Read Legion. The Alpha Legion to this day never even fights. All they do is Espionage.

No, because I do not like to read stupid.

A Marine has as much chance of fitting in with the day to day lives of common humans as an Ork does. I don't care what craptastic BL author of the month says otherwise, it is a biological impossibility for Marines to do such undercover work amongst ordinary humans-- they're too damn huge, they're too damn muscular, and they're too damn obviously mutated beyond human. Just the black carapace alone would show that, making Marines singularly unsuitable for, say, infiltrating cults and uncovering their connections That is why the Inquisition doesn't USE Marines for that purpose-- they SUCK at it.

Maybe they are just very kunning? Like da Orcses?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Feth and gakk are SM swear words
even I know that

I thought Feth was Tanith and Gakk was Verghastite

They are.

In Storm of Iron a squad of Iron Warriors infiltrate the base of a fort. Iron Warriors mechanical leg locks up though and one of them gets hit by a mortar
In The Chapters Due a squad of raven guard infiltrate a fortress, including auspexes and all that other stuff.
Captain Eshara of the Imperial Fists infiltrated a renegade camp and raped all the artillery and sleeping guys there.
'Scout squads are the vanguard of a Space Marine army. Infiltrating behind enemy lines they sow disruption and secure vital strongpoints. Only once a Scout has proven his courage and skill at arms in a Chapter's Scout Company is he elevated to the rank of battle brother, and inducted into one of the Chapter's Battle Companies.'-They're the same size as a standard marine.
In And They Shall Know No Fear a squad of Black Templars infiltrate a fort. May be back with more later
The Alpha Legion infiltrate in full armour. Easily (I'll get examples if you want me too. Loads.)
Zso Sahaal infiltrates and imperial world whilst an Inquisitor is trying to scope him out (Lord of Night)
Night Lords also infiltrate in full armour. Easily (I'll get examples if you want me too. Loads.)

It likely depends on the chapter, but no, for most chapters, scouts are not as large as Astartes. Remember, that scouts start off at, what, eleven years of age?

the only difference between a scout and a Space marine, physically, is the Black Carapace.

they will have the same body mass and be their adult size.

No, not all implants are added in at the same time. Here's the rough implant schedule for a codex chapter:

The Secondary Heart, Ossmodula, and Biscopia are introduced at roughly the same time between 10 and 14 years of age.

The Haemastamen and Larraman's Organ are introduced at the same time, at a different stage then the previous, leaning towards 12-14.

The Catalepsean Node (and the beginning of hypnotherapy) is added in between 14 and 17 years of age.

The Preomnor, Omophagea, and multi-lung must be introduced at the same time, at roughly 14-16 years of age. The Occulobe, Lyman's Ear, Sus-an Membrane, and Melanochrome are inserted in roughly the same time.

The Oolitic Kidney and Neuroglottis are introduced at the same time, around the age of sixteen.

The Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Progenoids, and Black Carapace are added in between sixteen and eighteen.


The idea that scouts grow in less than a year from prepubescent child to monstrous killing machine is ludicrous and unfluffy. It takes eight years minimum for carapace to be put in, all the while they're growing into becoming a Space Marine.

i never said the implants were added at the same time.



a Initiate is trained for years and once he has recieved all the implants except the Black Carapace he is put into the scout company to prove his worth.


after proving his worth he recieves the Black Carapace and becomes a Battle Brother.