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Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

This world is officially stolen for use in my next Dark Heresy campaign.

FeistierErmine wrote:

Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

This world is officially stolen for use in my next Dark Heresy campaign.

I know, best 40K planet ever.

First Aid 101 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn (WARNING: Graphic) we're looking at the one listed as fourth degree (Full-Thickness) minimum. So, no you don't get your nice clean cautorised wound I don't care what the Black Library thinks about las weapons.

Let's compare them side by side now shall we?:

Maintenance\Life time: Solid round ammo requires cleaning even after use in ideal conditions so that the moving parts are clear of debris including that which is left by the burnt excelerant of the rounds it fires and the shearing of the mechanical parts. Also periodic replacement of any moving part due to wear is to be expected. Las weapons have no moving parts so the cleaning required is minimal. Replacement of parts due to wear is unlikley to be an issue given proper design considerations.

Ammo: Even for caseless rounds, production of ammunition for 'hard ammo' requires an enormous ammount of metal and propellant and must be done either slowley by hand or in an intact factory. Giving a soldier more ammo also results in them carrying more weight. Las weapons can be recharged in a fire if need be otherwise any power souce could be adapted to recharge the unit freeing the Guardsmen for other duties. A fully charged magazine would weigh the same as an empty one.

Double stacked sickle style magazine for hard rounds hold about 30 shots. I believe in the Inquisitor Rulebook the Las weapons held power for 60 shots.

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent. Las rounds are not bound by such a constraint.

Accuracy: Hard Rounds are affected by wind, manufactoring defects of the round as well as the barrel, Internal+Transitional+External and Terminal ballistics and range\travel time. The 'kickback' or muzzle climb after each shot is likley to throw off alignment with the target. Las weapons although still suseptible to any manufactoring defects do not have a physical round to be affected by any of the other conditions mentioned above, and would not have a kickback. The projectile also travels at the speed of light.

Damage: Physical rounds rely mostly on hydro-shock for killing power, that is the round must penetrate through the target (Which wastes a lot of its energy) to be effective. Adding more power to the round to increase damage increases the weight of each bullet, the size, the amount of propellent needed and the kickback of each shot. Doing so also requires retooling of the barrel and must be done at the time of manufactoring of the round. Las rounds transfer their energy into heat on contact with the target losing only what energy is needed to satisfy entropy. Adding power to each shot does not increase the weight of the round or the kickback to the user in any way. Adding power is done by adjusting the reostat on the weapon.

Solid round weapons are also suseptible to jamming or slamfire due to their moving parts. Las weapons are free from this problem.

I swear I wrote this better on the Black Library Forum about a year ago but they took it down and I don't think I saved it :,(

Also note that Lasguns have variable power. For example, Korpsmen of the Death Korps have their guns set to fire at maximum power, but only get 25 shots per power pack (and they carry 2-4 powerpacks per man). At full power, they could blow the arm straight off an ork.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:First Aid 101 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn (WARNING: Graphic) we're looking at the one listed as fourth degree (Full-Thickness) minimum. So, no you don't get your nice clean cautorised wound I don't care what the Black Library thinks about las weapons.

Agreed. Pain would be as great if not even greater then that from a slug. But I think the systemic shock by a bullet would be still higher, especially by high velocity modern firearms like they are used by the military.

Let's compare them side by side now shall we?:

Maintenance\Life time: Solid round ammo requires cleaning even after use in ideal conditions so that the moving parts are clear of debris including that which is left by the burnt excelerant of the rounds it fires and the shearing of the mechanical parts. Also periodic replacement of any moving part due to wear is to be expected. Las weapons have no moving parts so the cleaning required is minimal. Replacement of parts due to wear is unlikley to be an issue given proper design considerations.

Agreed again. Although I would think that the fucusing mechanism of a las weapon would be quite prone to misalign itself under battlefield conditions, so there would be a fair amount of maintance still be required.

Ammo: Even for caseless rounds, production of ammunition for 'hard ammo' requires an enormous ammount of metal and propellant and must be done either slowley by hand or in an intact factory. Giving a soldier more ammo also results in them carrying more weight. Las weapons can be recharged in a fire if need be otherwise any power souce could be adapted to recharge the unit freeing the Guardsmen for other duties. A fully charged magazine would weigh the same as an empty one.

Double stacked sickle style magazine for hard rounds hold about 30 shots. I believe in the Inquisitor Rulebook the Las weapons held power for 60 shots.

True, but an ammo manufracture line is not too complicated to build and run. And charging an ammo pack in a fire would yield a limited load and render it unusable afterwards, according to the fluff.

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent. Las rounds are not bound by such a constraint.

Yes, but adding oxygen (or rather oxidated compounds) to the propellant mix is not hard and already is done for some specialised rounds in real life.

Accuracy: Hard Rounds are affected by wind, manufactoring defects of the round as well as the barrel, Internal+Transitional+External and Terminal ballistics and range\travel time. The 'kickback' or muzzle climb after each shot is likley to throw off alignment with the target. Las weapons although still suseptible to any manufactoring defects do not have a physical round to be affected by any of the other conditions mentioned above, and would not have a kickback. The projectile also travels at the speed of light.

True. Also training with a Las or any other non-ballistic weapon would be easier - no need to compensate on long ranges etc. But for some reason fluff tells us that Imperial Las rifles do have a kickback (how that is possible, beats me. Even the pressure of ionized air shouldn't be detectable, but hey even physics are grimdark in the 41st Millenium :-))

Damage: Physical rounds rely mostly on hydro-shock for killing power, that is the round must penetrate through the target (Which wastes a lot of its energy) to be effective. Adding more power to the round to increase damage increases the weight of each bullet, the size, the amount of propellent needed and the kickback of each shot. Doing so also requires retooling of the barrel and must be done at the time of manufactoring of the round. Las rounds transfer their energy into heat on contact with the target losing only what energy is needed to satisfy entropy. Adding power to each shot does not increase the weight of the round or the kickback to the user in any way. Adding power is done by adjusting the reostat on the weapon.

Still, a Las Bolt that is not immediatly lethal will never have the same stopping power like a bullet has. Especially the systemic shock alone is known to have felled people that just got glancing or flesh wounds. See the abyssimal M-16 and its poor performance for what a lack of stopping power means. Add bleeding, possibly fragmentation etc. to create more work for enemy medics. So this point goes to solid slugs imo.

Solid round weapons are also suseptible to jamming or slamfire due to their moving parts. Las weapons are free from this problem.

True, although one would assume that they probably will have problems of their own (corrosion of contacts comes to mind, focus-misalignment etc.) Tech is never flawless, especially not in 40K :-D

I swear I wrote this better on the Black Library Forum about a year ago but they took it down and I don't think I saved it :,(

They where jelous and afraid of your scathing critique! Kidding aside: This was a very good post anyway, mate :-)

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent.

No they don't. The oxidiser is in the propellant.

Plus, bullets can go through mirrors.

When considering solid ammunition (5.56mm,7.62mm,.50 cal etc) in my experience,the worst injuries are the ones you can't see...

5.56mm was designed to incapacitate, to increase stresses on the enemy's resources i.e a severly wounded soldier would take two others to carry, then he would require medical treatment etc. Multiply this 15 fold and you have alot of troops taken out of the equasion.

7.62mm is good at it's job which is to kill, as proven during the Falklands war when the SLR was the basic weapn of choice for us Brits. Also the GPMG is still used as fire-support despite being nearly 40 years old.

The 5.56mm travels at around 3000m/s, but is unstable during flight. More often than not, it tumbles and will almost always hit the casualty facing backwards, meaning a larger surface area is hitting the target. This means more damage is caused as the energy is dispersed into the target:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/gel2.jpg

As you can see the large bulge to the right of the gel block is the largest, as the energy is released. Imagine this is the human body, the large cavity caused in a vascular area such as the abdomen mean horrific damage to tissues and organs. The sudden increase in volume causes a vacuum, sucking in any debris that was following in the rounds wake. This vacuum then closes in on itself, trapping said debris etc inside the tissues. Not only does necrosis start almost immediately, but the infection caused is almost instantaneous. That doesn't even take into account blood loss and bone damage.

The thing with 5.56mm is that the exit wound may not be on the opposite side of the entry wound. I have had a casualty where he had taken a round to the right leg,the round travelled up the femur, up the torso and exited out the top of the right shoulder.

So is solid ammunition good. Yes. It does it's job perfectly. Obviously the bigger the round, the more damage caused. .50 cal only has to pass within 1/2 of an inch to remove your arm from your body.It doesn't need to actually hit you.

@ Bash: Good summary

OT: Shouldn't that be "BashtheBoche"? Being a Fritz myself, I just noticed ;-) (puts monocle back)

Cheers, Mate

Hastus_Drake wrote:@ Bash: Good summary

OT: Shouldn't that be "BashtheBoche"? Being a Fritz myself, I just noticed ;-) (puts monocle back)

Cheers, Mate

I didn't want to offend any box-heads. So I spelt it as I heard it. Ded klever me

Thanks mate.

The marines use solid bolter shells

bolter rounds arn't solid, they explode.

by solid the thread means a single lump of metal that does damage by the transfer of Kinetic energy to the target upon impact. Resulting in blunt force trauma, tearing of affected flesh, and Hydrostatic shock.

Chongara wrote:
Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

You sir, have made my day. Siggied if you don't mind.

I've just built some IG, and given them forgeworld autoguns, so I clicked on this topic.

I prefer 'autoguns' for two reasons: one, assault rifles are cool, matter of fact anything that fires bullets is cool. (someone was saying autoguns use caseless ammo; I don't think this is the case, since the rifles I've got have normal ejection ports)

Two, lasguns don't make any sense. They're supposed to be lasers, but all the background treats them more or less like modern rifles. people are described stripping and cleaning them, they have recoil, incoming rounds make a different sound to outgoing, the rounds don't go at the speed of light - in fact, wouldn't a laser be a beam, rather than a travelling projectile. Anyway, I'm not a physicist, but lasguns make no sense, they're basically made up science-as-magic.

if and when Laser based weapons begin to be used they will rely even more on regular cleaning as any dirt on the lense or inside the chamber will result in complete failure to form a laser(or at least a significant delay and/or lower power)

and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

Basicly, projectile rounds=better anti-organism, more powerful, doesn't have to touch you to kill. Used in autocannons, heavy stubbers, stub guns, autoguns, shotguns and carnifxes. Used on poor, low-tech world guard regis, by citizens, by vets (shotguns), by HS gunners, HWS, IN, Apothecaries and some PDFs.
Las=Extremely reliable, more ammo, better anti-armour, quieter. Used in lasguns, laspistols, multi-las, turbo-lasers and lascannons. Used by guard.

Kilkrazy wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent.

No they don't. The oxidiser is in the propellant.

Plus, bullets can go through mirrors.

LOL, mirrors are the bane of laser guns! If you want to rebel against the Imperium you should just make your armour out of mirrors.

ooo, does that mean Shiny marines are immune to Las fire?

would be awsome if so.

Yes, I think we've discovered the secret of the Grey Knights power.

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly - I understand where you are coming from, with the idea of laser weapons. If you take modern laser cutting tools, they require enormous amounts of constant power, and a un-interrupted beam. Trying to transfer that across to a rugged, soldier proof weapon that is supposedly simple as an AK47 to maintain and manufacture is beyond anything we have here present that is believable.

But OTOH, is'nt that why we play toy soldiers, so that we CAN have laser weapons that anyone can use,from feral savages to planetary aristocracy?

That's absolutely true.

It is why threads like this are a bit pointless.

The fluff is just for fun, and not much of it is justified by real science.

Bash the Bosh wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly - I understand where you are coming from, with the idea of laser weapons. If you take modern laser cutting tools, they require enormous amounts of constant power, and a un-interrupted beam. Trying to transfer that across to a rugged, soldier proof weapon that is supposedly simple as an AK47 to maintain and manufacture is beyond anything we have here present that is believable.

But OTOH, is'nt that why we play toy soldiers, so that we CAN have laser weapons that anyone can use,from feral savages to planetary aristocracy?

True enough. I suppose the point is you can arm your little soldiers with whatever you want, so long as you still think they're cool. None of the mechanics, physics or logistics of the background make sense anyway, and after all, a 1" resin rifle isn't any more effective on the battlefield than a 1" plastic laser!

Exactly. As long as YOU like the way YOUR little plastic men look, who honestly gives a monkey's chuff whether the plastic guns they carry go 'pew-pew' or 'brrrrp'.
As KillKrazy said, it's there for fun. It's not real, well for 38'000 years its not

The point of this was to see your opinion on how good my little mans gun is whether it does go 'Pew-pew' or 'Brrrpp' or 'Swooshhhhhhh-BANG' and not based on real life

They go "snap-crack"!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They go "snap-crack"!

Probably more like "snap-crackle" then immediately followed up by a "pop"

okay, well apart from the science fiction, I was under the impression that there was a clear logistical distinction between las and solid slug weaponry. Las weapons are expensive to produce but very, very cheap to maintain, while solid slug weapons are very cheap to make, but are very expensive to maintain. A shotgun is basically a steel tube, but you have to pay for ammunition in perpetuity, while lasguns are really expensive, but once you ship one off, you don't need to worry about supplying it at all for the whole life of the weapon.

As such, the imperial guard gets lasguns because supplying the army in such far-flung places is incredibly challenging, making the usefulness of a no-maintenance weapon clearly worth the boost to downpayment. Space marines, on the other hand, are always well-supplied, which means that they can walk around with their $40,000-per-second assault cannons and never worry about running out of ammo.

The only other class of people are those who would like to have weapons with no maintenance, but simply cannot affort the up-front cost of las weapons, such as most civilians and more primitive worlds.

actually Las weaponry is the cheapest to produce and arm billions of guardsmen with(Old Guard codex)

Autoguns are only given to regiments that come from worlds that don't have the ability to produce Lasguns.

Autoguns are also avoided because they require shipments of Ammunition, shipments that could be carrying Food, Basilisk shells, Lemun Russ fuel, more guardsmen......

the only supply directly associated with the operation of lasguns would be gun oil, replacement weapons, and power packs(they try to keep these to a minimum.



If the Impierium could afford to give every guardsmen a Bolter they would likely do so.

MenOfTanith wrote:....and not based on real life

Thats my point about this thread. People are trying to justify how a las-gun works using modern physics, talk of optic lenses, power-sources, the connection to modern weaponry etc.

Grey Templar had just said that Las-guns are cheap to produce: How much would it cost for the US Army's weapons division,using today's technology, to design,trial and produce Las-guns? Trillions?

The only fact is that Las-guns are not real. Therefore we pretend using stories that the lovely people from under the great umbrella of Games-Workshop have written for us.

This not an attempt to de-rail or upset. Just fighting the corner for Solid ammunition,as the OP stated

Orks do. And i wonder? do shuriken weapons count as solid?