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I think there needs to be more incentives in each army list for alternate, less spammy list. I think a greater emphasis needs to be put on passive skills and customisation rather than physical wargear customisation (things to represent a characters skills and knowledge such as Space Wolves sagas).

I think the Phase based combat system needs to be overhauled and streamlined to makes combat game play quicker, simpler and more fun.

I think Chaos and MEQ need a overhaul. I would put loyalists in 2 books, Codex Assault Marines (BA, BA SW) and Codex Gunline Marines (Imperial Fist, Ultramarines etc). Chaos would only need 1 multi purpose book with a good emphasis on making chaos different from MEQ game play wise (such as Dark Eldar vs Eldar) while not handicapping them (such as Dark Eldar vs Eldar).

Anpu42 wrote:

Shatter.proof wrote:Who are the Rouge traders? Do they trade make up?

As far as I remember they were the traving Adventures/Traders/Mechants/Mercanaries
They used to have a heavy ability to costomize.
The cosest you can get now is DH/WH list

Rouge Traders are licensed to roam the borders of Imperial Space, the so-called Rim, which leads to their other name of Rimrunners, or Rimmers for short.

They trade mainly in make-up, costume jewellery and accessories.

Just a little thing, but I would like a troops unit in the Orks codex that is basically boyz with big choppas and 'eavy armor. Perhaps 10 points each. They would need a transport, but they would be good against anything with T5 or greater. And they would look coool!!!

What sort of jobs do the Rimmers perform?
----

Maybe not for a reboot, but I'd like to see more support for narrative gaming- linked campaign rules, or a Battle Missions style book with FOC guidelines that encouraged some diversity.

I'd make sure Ordo Xenos, Eldar Exodites, Adeptus Mechanicus ( With Techpriest Adepts as elites, Skitarii Legionaries as main troops and 0-1 Knight paladin as a Heavy support AND HQ choice. ) and lost and the damned/Traitor Guardsmen all had codex's. I'd also support an amalgamation of all the space marines codex's into one big codex allowing you to do standard codex space marines or take upgrades to turn it into whatever first founding chapter rules-wise you wish. Each with unique models and theme rules. And do the same for Chaos space marines.

Rules: An updated EPIC style or other style set. This would include morale factors, and simultaneous firing or similar firing effects. Ranges would be increased substantially (most heavy ballistic and energy weapons would be board range), but negatives factored in. Cover would impact chance to shoot, not save. Movement would including sustained firing, moving/firing, and running. Different races would have different movement rates. Less use of dice for randomized effects (again, no d6 for running, but just double base movement). A mild form of overwatch would return (with negatives to hit).

Fluff/Race specific:
Advance the timeline slightly.

*The Imperium would still be crappy and the dominant human faction. It has been hammered by the Nid wars and the 13th Crusade and fractured heavily. However there is hope. It is fully engaged now with multiple crusades and a shift to total war. There would be several other smaller factions. These factions would be: a chaos foothold; smaller break apart former imperium sectors; and a more technologically advanced smaller race. Codexes would include mercenaries and these factions as well.

*The eldar are returning. The craftworlds recognize the great shadowpoint is here. The next hundred years decides whether their race survives here or they should flee the galaxy. The DE become an eldar craftworld faction. The rules again make them supreme in a specialist, fast attack manner. Make them extremely fast and hard hitting, but morale factors make them bail if any major casualties.

*The Nids have advanced but their main hive fleets have been broken. Several fleets have transmogrified from a nomadic existence to “settle” and rebuild (creating new Nid factions). Others remain predator splinter fleets. However, this is respite. If the Nid empires are allowed to grow and recuperate, they will again be come a galactic threat.

*The necrons have waxed powerful. They are still waxing but are not the power they were. Many of their tomb worlds did not make the transition/looped etc. (again the option for more craftwrolds). Others have been destroyed by the other races. But their power is still staggering and they have the ability to regain their full potential over time. The eldar are responding to this threat/opportunity. Awakened tombworlds have set off race memories in nearby ork empires, and great waughs have formed and launched against them. The Imperium has dedicated multiple orders, crusades, and a greatly expacted their xenos hunters to deal with them and destroy tombworlds as they awaken, with crusades against tombworlds that are too strong for quick extermination. The battle has been joined.

*Chaos renegades have captured many imperial systems and others have declared for them or gone independent (see above). Under the theory of “soldiers deserve soldiers SIR!” The vanguard of marine chapters now direct their energies against them. LATD/chaos legion forces abound and are fought by the fleets, and Imperial Guard, while the old Chaos Marine Legions are fought directly by marines. Rulewise, there is a bifurcation with LATD or chaos human/demon forces with a few chaos marines as elites. Old Chaos Legions are expensive pointwise but have very high stats.

*The Orks are having a great time of it. Empires go to toe to toe with the Nids. Great Waughs are launched against their true enemies-the necrons. Occasionally they take time off to bash some humies or chaos scum. This is what they were made for. This is their golden age. It is the time of Waugh.

*Two very customizable codexes that allow for a full range of customization (with costs and benefits).
-Codex Mercs (or Rogue Trader). Pick a core faction, with additional units from differing races. Kroot, tau, guard types, freebooters, demiurg, and additional race units.

-Codex LATD. Customizable like the old LATD codex, but more so, with units that pay for additional capabilities or modifications to stat lines. Access to a wide variety of guard equipment and chaos equipment.

*Tau are part of a slew of new races, fighting to survive against the big powers. Some are technologically advanced, some are biologically advanced. But the galaxy is a scary place.

*Lastly, the ultimate horror of the Pan Fo has been reviled!

If they did a total reboot. . . I know some of these ideas are daft, but I'm just tossing them out there.

1. Change the Hit rolls into a more intuitive roll above system against a set number (example: base difficulty to hit an open enemy with no cover is 7. BS 4 will hit on 3+). Ranged combat uses set numbers based on range and base size, Melee combat uses a set number based on the target's WS.

2. Change the Wound rolls into a more intuitive roll above system against Toughness (example: S3 wounds T8 on 5+ (8-3)).

3. Standardize base sizes and model volume. Remove true line of sight.

4. Remove Cover Saves. Cover now modifies the target number to hit. Saving Throws become a roll-under system (this makes low rolls more useful and helps discourage weighted dice). Higher Save Numbers are better. Armor Piercing becomes a modifier to Armor Saves (-1 AP, etc).

5. Standardize the rules between Vehicles and other units. Vehicles become more likely to take damage, but get more wounds to compensate.

6. Give a 1d6 initiative boost to an assaulting force if it is their side's turn.

The thing I would GREATLY prefer is changing the basic "your entire army goes, then mine" turn-based approach. Instead, have an alternating units mechanic with some way of equalizing uneven unit numbers (could be done with a simple chart). This would help with the fluidity of the battles and make it more dynamic and tactical instead of setting up combos of doom.

Assault should reduce the effect of initiative, but increase the effect of weapon skill. Instead of striking first, award bonus attacks for swift models (or reduce attacks for slow models). Perhaps both attacker and defender make I tests; if A passes, +1 attack per model. If D passes, -1 attack for each attacker (basically negates the charge bonus). But all attacks go simultaneously, except for specific ones that go first or last. Basically, remove the ability of I4 armies to annihilate I3 armies without striking back, since it unduly favors that one statistic. Weapon skill should do more than alternate 3s and 4s to hit except in extremes. Use the range of 2+ to 6+. Even skill? Both hit on 4+. WS4 vs WS3? WS4 hits on 3+, WS3 on 5+. Skill should matter more than raw speed, and work both defensively (preventing hits) and offensively (generating hits).

Further, assaults should have different assault reactions (stand and fire, counter-charge, brace to receive charge, retreat, etc.) with Initiative and Leadership determining the success of these actions.

Shooting should have modifiers for range, speed of target, size of target, and cover. Bonuses for short range, large targets, immobile targets, masses of targets (large mobs). Guns could have accuracy modifiers for ranges or simply ignore range penalties, etc. Penalties for small, individual, fast moving, well-hidden targets. Frankly, even orks should hit all their shots if you're firing from 3 inches away into a swarm of Nids, for example, but firing a rokkit across the board shouldn't have much hope. I think this could be achieved fairly easily, since you have to measure range anyway, and it could be a simple: point blank (1-6 inches), short range (7-12), medium (13-24), or long (25+) shot. Guns could have an accuracy bonus, plus weapon skill of the firer. Would give some value back to snipers, barrage weapons, and accurate long range weapons (i.e., lascannons) when they've lost some of their lustre.

I would build all codexes at once with a universal point balancing system based on math rather than arbitrary point totals. Distribute them as you write the fluff, whatever, to meet your production schedule, but the units, weapons, special rules are done all at once so there's no codex creep. If needed, release a "second edition" to update and edit should mistakes be made, with PDFs available for those who already purchased and registered their original codex.

Leadership should have more advantages than just resisting failure. IG-type orders aren't bad for all armies, consider having smaller versions throughout the game and stop using LD for stuff like psychic powers where it makes little sense.

Anyway, there's lot that can be fixed, but these are some of the points I've been bugged by.

I'm with focused I want a D10 system, allows more individuality between units and also making some armor saves different.

I would also have liked to have seen Space Marines be more "elite" than they are now. I would rather have one codex for each race that is highly diverse instead of a couple for armies like smurfs. Then just have more races get codecies.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Dark Eldar are dropped

I will kill you and rape the body.

(J/K. Or am I?)

Fine, they can have a codex.

After Lost and the Damned.
And Squats.
And Adeptus Mech.
And the Sensei.

Happy now?

What's a sensei?

Number one, switch to d10. Yes, they're weird shapes and make the general public a little squeamish, but it would be good for the game.

Second, change from IGOUGO to a weighted initiative system. This could be as simple as each player getting a number of counters equal to their number of units which are then drawn randomly, allowing the player's counter that came up to make a complete turn (move, shoot, assault) with one unit. Rinse an repeat. And there are plenty of other versions of this system to go around.

C, customizable armies that encourage scratch building and inventive army lists. The typical ones would be here (LatD, Kroot, Ad Mech), but include the fun and random stuff that doesn't ever get made and doesn't need a full line of miniatures released for it. Bring back more of the hobby into this hobby game.



Oh, and drop LotR. Those people can be put to better use elsewhere.

One of the better IGOUGO system I have used is from Battlefield: Evolution.
it is still IGOUGO, but if a unit belonging to Player B is shot at or has a Player A unit move within 12" that Player B Unit gets to Move or Fire at that Player A Unit that provoct the Action.

I would eliminate chaos.

Vehicle design rules. Bring those back.

Also a pre-heresy/heresy game (I know there would be a lot of Marines) done in true scale would be kinda nice.

Anpu42 wrote:One of the better IGOUGO system I have used is from Battlefield: Evolution.
it is still IGOUGO, but if a unit belonging to Player B is shot at or has a Player A unit move within 12" that Player B Unit gets to Move or Fire at that Player A Unit that provoct the Action.

That's cool, but I'm not a fan of overwatch systems. What would be a cool addition would be special rules for characters or leaders or even armies that allow that kind of stuff, or even allow you to use two units at once or back-to-back or something. But that's all variations on a theme.

If thing work out we may try it on the 19th

You know what? It's fine the way it is.

Allow me to shoot into units in CC with certain armies,like tyranids or Orks,maybe IG

Samus_aran115 wrote:Allow me to shoot into units in CC with certain armies,like tyranids or Orks,maybe IG

Special IG rule. "Fire on my pause!" units with officers may have a special order that neighboring IG heavy units fire ordnance into that unit if being assaulted.

You know that we are writing a new game for kid to sell and get rich off of while leaving us asking, "Whatever happened to Kid_Kyoto? He never posts anymore.".

Drop the force org chart, give an army the option to choose a units role, make "scoring unit" an upgrade that must be paid for, ala-cart codex

So a codex would have fewer entries but be far more customizable.

For exmple Marines would have:
Light troopers (like current scouts)
Basic troopers (MEQ)
Elite troopers (Stern/honor gaurd)
Heavy troopers (Termies)

Each would have a basic cost for a statline and basic weapon/armour. Then extra rules could be added for each unit, so you could have inflitrating termies or jump pack scouts. Anything could be scoring but the unit cost would go up.

Then you coud give theme armies a point discount to encourge the use of less common units. Or you could take units from another codex at a huge points mark-up.

Carbide wrote:Drop the force org chart, give an army the option to choose a units role, make "scoring unit" an upgrade that must be paid for, ala-cart codex

So a codex would have fewer entries but be far more customizable.

For exmple Marines would have:
Light troopers (like current scouts)
Basic troopers (MEQ)
Elite troopers (Stern/honor gaurd)
Heavy troopers (Termies)

Each would have a basic cost for a statline and basic weapon/armour. Then extra rules could be added for each unit, so you could have inflitrating termies or jump pack scouts. Anything could be scoring but the unit cost would go up.

Then you coud give theme armies a point discount to encourge the use of less common units. Or you could take units from another codex at a huge points mark-up.

I was in a playtesting for a game without FOCs
It was pure Chaos and not the good kind
Imagine a Marine Force with nothing but Jump Pack equiped Devistators with Heavy Flamers

focusedfire wrote:You know that we are writing a new game for kid to sell and get rich off of while leaving us asking, "Whatever happened to Kid_Kyoto? He never posts anymore.".

When you see a starter box of Sensei vs Zoats you'll know it's me

(Sensei BTW are Ninja Jedi Highlanders directly descended from the Space Emporer himself, I don't know how Jervis looks at himself each morning knowing he is withholding such awesomeness from the world)

Anyway I really like the cover save mechanic and consider it one of GW's best ideas. Saves of all sort mean the guy on the receiving end feels like he's doing something, he's protecting his models by rolling. Even when you die terribly you feel like you had a fair chance. Modifiers just don't offer the same psychological joy as a good save.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just saw a well-written, thought-provoking thread on whether CSMs should be demon worshiping marines or mutants which reminded me of another thing I'd reboot.

CSMs are not fearless. They are stronger and fiercer than SMs but have a lower BS and leadership. As long as they're winning they're fine but once they start to lose they run.

Fearlessness should be a quality of the heroes, villains should be bullies.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

focusedfire wrote:You know that we are writing a new game for kid to sell and get rich off of while leaving us asking, "Whatever happened to Kid_Kyoto? He never posts anymore.".

When you see a starter box of Sensei vs Zoats you'll know it's me

(Sensei BTW are Ninja Jedi Highlanders directly descended from the Space Emporer himself, I don't know how Jervis looks at himself each morning knowing he is withholding such awesomeness from the world)

Anyway I really like the cover save mechanic and consider it one of GW's best ideas. Saves of all sort mean the guy on the receiving end feels like he's doing something, he's protecting his models by rolling. Even when you die terribly you feel like you had a fair chance. Modifiers just don't offer the same psychological joy as a good save.

That made no sense of course. So I looked it up on Lexicanum and am still confused. Totally never heard of these Sensei guys. Are they warp creatures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
no nm. wtf is the Star Child? The soul of The Emperor?! Crazy.

My vote is for a d10 system. 1d6 just isn't enough variability.

I'm partial to 2D6 instead of D10. D6 are cheep, easy, and plentiful, plus everyone instantly recognizes them and d6 are kinder on the fading eyesight of the older guys that still play. Not to mention, worst case scenario you could just raid the family Monopoly box for dice since there is always a couple more in there. I like the idea of a greater scale of difference between the weaklings and the heavy hitters, but 2D6 lends itself so well to the "on double 1's or 6's" type rules GW seems to be so fond of.

I'd like to see a new allies system governing races where each army belongs to a a general body of like minded armies. For the sake of argument I'm just going to refer to these bodies as factions. Any race would be able to ally within their faction, and there would be a mechanic for cross faction allying as well (think Orks summoned to a planet by a chaos sorcerer with the intent that once they have done the fighting for him he can can easily retrieve some artifact buried under an outpost once they've moved on, only suddenly a Space Marine contingent drop pods down and now the sorcerer has to bolster the Ork forces to ensure their victory).

I'd stick with the race themes, but would generalize them across the board (for example Armor, Troops, Elite). The Armor race in your faction would have a variety of particularly classy tanks, and armored soldiers, while the Troops race would have lots and lots of different kinds of uniformed bodies, and the Elites race would have the greatest quantity of sneaky assassins, or monstrous creatures or whatever.
Something like:
Xenos- Armor- Orks, Troops: Necron, Elites: Tyranid
Fringe Empires- Armor: Tau, Troops: Some_New_Race, Elite: Eldar/Dark Eldar,
Imperium of Man- Armor: Marines/Mech, Troops: Guard/Navy, Elite: Inquisition/DH/WH/etc
Forces of Chaos- Armor: CSM, Troops: Fallen/Heretic/Psyker/Witch/Lesser Daemons, Elite: Greater Daemons/Gods

Each army would have a similar organization of HQ, Elites, Troops, etc to what they currently have so that pure armies are viable, but if a player wanted nothing but one specific thing then that would be competitive as well. I'm partial to the idea of being able to field an army that is heavily focused on Armor either through using just the armor themed army, or through some combination of the armor elements across your faction. Right now game balance comes from the FOC and general balance across armies, and though it might be more work I'd like to see balance achieved at the unit level.

I would also like to see the current codex split in twain;

Nothing but fluff and artwork in the army codex (one per army and includes derivative armies like DE, other colored Marines, etc), and;

Nothing but army rules in a faction codex (one per faction, includes the all the army rules in your faction).

I like charts, tables, and graphs when I'm looking for something specific (i.e. army rules), and I just plain don't want to have to memorize what page and in which margin the rule that says I get ability Blah is on, you know... that one page about that one fluff characters that isn't even actually playable. Besides, the only effective way to convey a sense of your armies background and role is with a book covering your army and the armies your on friendly terms with that describes where you all fit into the general scheme of things.

Ideally I'd give out the army rules for free. I can see the need to charge for the artwork, it isn't going change too drastically in the sort term anyways (though obviously it can change drastically over 15 years). However, the rules can. They need a distribution method that's forgiving simply due to their nature. Putting the army rules in a easily accessible PDF format would create an easier and lower initial cost to start this hobby, we all benefit from making it easier for others to get started. PDF rules could just be updated rather than Errata'ed or FAQ'ed, hell even the our respective governments have begun to realize this and have taken steps to post our laws and regulations online. Open, easy access to rules mean that you can learn the armies on the other side of the table from you without needing to drop $20 per army for the privilege of to doing so.

In my opinion a D10/2D6 system is cool with me. I would suggest that such a system should use simple equations (such as stat + dice roll vs. DC/number to beat). I would want a revamped system to avoid tables whenever possible as table checking slows down the game.

I think a new version should have less rules that can be abused (like fzorgle, magna grapple, 3++ saves, death masks) to encourage players to "outplay" their opponent strategically rather then just overwhelm them with a particularly maximised list

I'd like 15mm with a graduated die system and random turn/phase/action.

Honestly, if this game was in 15mm I would buy every army twice.

drukawski wrote:I'm partial to 2D6 instead of D10. D6 are cheep, easy, and plentiful, plus everyone instantly recognizes them and d6 are kinder on the fading eyesight of the older guys that still play. Not to mention, worst case scenario you could just raid the family Monopoly box for dice since there is always a couple more in there. I like the idea of a greater scale of difference between the weaklings and the heavy hitters, but 2D6 lends itself so well to the "on double 1's or 6's" type rules GW seems to be so fond of.

I like most of the things you posted but this would slow the game down to a crawl. The mechanics of a 2d6 system would call for 2d6 to be rolled for each attack. That would be a lot of different coloured pairs of dice and would be unfair to the colour blind.Seriouly though, rolling an entire squads attacks would make the game slower than in second edition.

It is nice to be able to scounge dice easily when you need it, but the need never comes because gamers develope dice superstitions and always have their own set. If they don't then the FLGS just sold another of the new tubes of 10 d10.

You mentioned fading eyesight. I'm getting up there in age, myself. I can't remember the name of the company but one of the manufacturers makes larger gaming dice because they recognized that the old school gamers from the 70's & 80's are in their 50's anf 60's. You can now get d10', d12's, & d20's as large as you want. I have a friend that has a 1' diameter d20 made from brazed copper plates. He takes it to LARP-ing events.

Again, aside from this one point, I really liked your ideas.

@ Frazzled: On the pushing forward the timeline, I would *love* to see the Dragon waking up and begin to indoctrinate the Mechanicus causing (further) rifts between them and the Imperium, perhaps starting with overriding/controlling all servitors on the planet into something of a zombie plague?