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Soup and a roll wrote:

nkelsch wrote:100% WYSIWYG is easy to obtain.

It is easy to stick a bolter, bolt pistol, chainsword and two types of grenades to my chaos marines. If I did it for each model, however, they would (imo) look like ass. You know they are nilla marines and you know they can't change their layout. Why is WYSIWYG important in this instance? I agree that if I say they are actually plague marines or that the flamer is a plasma gun it becomes a problem, but if you don't take the pith surely there can be some leeway?

If you don't like it, then model only the basic equipment you think look good and then convince your opponent to give you permission to use them as an exception to WYSIWYG. If he agrees then you are good to go.

The issue is what seems reasonable for your example of Chaos marines then gets translated by people to think 'all basic troops for all armies should be fine'. And then you have players trying to use Slugga AoBR boyz with no modeling done to them as "shoota boy 'ard boyz with grenades" even though the weapons, armor and grenades are not WYSIWYG.

By realizing the 'standard' is 100% it allows reasonable exceptions to be made by reasonable people. It also means unreasonable abusive exceptions have no leg to stand on because the rules are 100% WYSIWYG.

I would call Space wolf or CSM basic troopers with the bolter/chainsowrd/pistol reasonable exception. But I won't grant a blanket exception like 'default equipment never needs to be WYSIWYG for anyone' or 'only Characters need WYSIWYG' because this is not true for all armies.

nkelsch wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:WYSIWYG isn't enforced on normal units, only MCs and ICs iirc.

From where do you recall this? None of this is true.

*My base units must be WYSIWYG, Shoota boyz must have shootas, Slugga boys must have Slugga/choppas
*My heavy weapons must be WYSIWYG, Big shoota boyz must have Big Shotoas, Rokkit boyz must have Rokkits.
*My upgrade Characters must be WYSIWYG, My nob must have his PK, or BC or whatever I give him.
*Grenades must be WYSIWYG. If my Orks are upgraded to have them, then I must show them. If I do not, they don't. Especially if one unit does, like a 'ardboy escort for Megaarmor IC who need grenades to assault through the Mega armor terrain, but the rest of my boyz don't.
*All my vehicles must be WYSIWYG and have the appropriate wargear and weapons. I cannot OVERMODEL by giving all my vehicles upgrades they are not using. Especially if some trukks ARE using Boarding planks but others are not.

So why would only ICs need to be WYSIWYG and everything else I can plop down whatever random model I want and call it whatever I need at the moment?

100% WYSIWYG is easy to obtain. The issue comes in when people want to change lists around all the time but don't want to own different or multiple models. Then learn to play with the gear you modeled and accept the disadvantages or advantages that combination gives you. If you can't handle that, play a video game that reconstructs pixels on the fly. Warhammer is a miniatures game based upon miniatures and modeling.

The RULES of the game are 100% WYSIWYG. With opponent's consent you can choose mutually with an opponent to relax any restrictions you wish. Also, events can require and enforce whatever level they wish... but there is no rule allowing you to force a non-WYSIWYG model upon anyone as the rule is WYSIWYG. If you want to be welcome with 100% of opponents and 100% of events, then you know the standard required. It is very nice to know my army is welcome wherever I go because I meet the standard set by the rules. I highly recommend it.

First of all, WYSIWYG is actually not easy to obtain. Go back to my post and pick my examples up. I need to cut the most basic parts of my models (legs) in order to remove equipment which I am not allowed to take, then I need to fill in with greenstuff the parts where I cut the grenades off my Dire Avengers. I'm sorry, but I'm quite ham-fisted with green stuff.

As for the rules which enforce WYSIWYG, I can only find one example, so please point out the other ones I missed.

BRB Page 47 wrote:Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their codex. (etc)

I must say that, as far as rules are concerned, that particular box gives some of the most freedom I've ever seen. It basically tell you that you aren't forced to, according to RAW, have 100% WYSIWYG even on ICs so long as your opponent is OK with it (and no, it has nothing to do with TMIR) and know what's coming.

Page 47 says WYSIWYG is the rule and required. It also says Opponent's permission is required when not following WYSIWYG.

When an opponent has to accommodate your small degree of proxies, that is opponents consent, not RAW that WYSIWYG is not required or enforceable.

And people also want to stretch 'small degree' of proxies to practically a whole army which is why trying to set a universal relaxed standard is close to impossible.

And every Codex says it too:
Codex Space Marines, page 127: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 89: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Eldar, page 59: "Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the model."
Codex Orks, page 94: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model if possible."

So there is only one standard supported by the rules: 100% WYSIWYG, any exceptions are opponent's consent.

nkelsch wrote:Page 47 says WYSIWYG is the rule and required. It also says Opponent's permission is required when not following WYSIWYG.

When an opponent has to accommodate your small degree of proxies, that is opponents consent, not RAW that WYSIWYG is not required or enforceable.

And people also want to stretch 'small degree' of proxies to practically a whole army which is why trying to set a universal relaxed standard is close to impossible.

And every Codex says it too:
Codex Space Marines, page 127: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 89: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Eldar, page 59: "Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the model."
Codex Orks, page 94: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model if possible."

So there is only one standard supported by the rules: 100% WYSIWYG, any exceptions are opponent's consent.

UPGRADES.

Klawz wrote:UPGRADES.

So I can take AoBR without rokkit packs and call them stormboyz because that is not an Upgrade and is base wargear can that can be ignored for the Ork Codex?

nkelsch wrote:

Klawz wrote:UPGRADES.

So I can take AoBR without rokkit packs and call them stormboyz because that is not an Upgrade and is base wargear can that can be ignored for the Ork Codex?

RAW, yes. Good luck finding someone to play against.

Klawz wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Klawz wrote:UPGRADES.

So I can take AoBR without rokkit packs and call them stormboyz because that is not an Upgrade and is base wargear can that can be ignored for the Ork Codex?

RAW, yes. Good luck finding someone to play against.

Then RAW sucks for Eldar then

Then enjoy your bolterless/grenadeless Space marines/CSM fellas.

nkelch

I think you should read the WYSIWYG rule. It is certainly only for options (not for base equipement) and the rule does only pertain to Characters.

However convention is to open it out to units and weapons options that require visibility. Stuff like grenades, melta bombs, digital weapons, and hardwired systems don't generally require modelling particularly as in some cases they would simply not be visible on the model.

Most of the rules you've quoted as explained pertain again to upgrades or options and that is realistically all you need to show.

Now in order for your models to look good and for people to be happy you'd better model some weapons and basic armour onto all applicable models but putting 2 different grenades, a bolt pistol, CCW and a Bolter on your Grey Hunters simply isn't required.

Unfortunately by RaW Eldar have a different rule. However by RaW no conversions are allowed but I'd imagine you'd get a pretty bad name if you started trying to enforce that rule...

Bolterless SMs are allowed but if they're not holding any sort of gun (say they've got a BP and a grenade that's fine by me) then I'd give someone a funny look.

However as to the Ork boy for storm boy proxy by RaW that is not allowed as that is still a proxy. A storm boy isn;t an ork boy with a jump pack he is a storm boy so only Cidtadel storm boy models could be used.

nkelsch Heres an idea...Go to the GW website... They made the rule they should follow the rule, right?
Look at their entire 40k line of painted models.... then decide if they are "Legal" under your definition of wysiwyg.

Orks, correct me if I am wrong, have 3 basic troop types.. Ard boyz, Boyz (Choppa Slugga equiped), and grots. Shootas are an option for the base Boyz, and thus SHOULD be modelled correctly.

Sm have 2 basic troops.. Tactical Marines and Scouts. Other than a few special/heavy weapons Tacs have no options, but Scouts do have wholesale weapons tradeouts, like the Ork Boyz and should be correctly modelled.
Tau, 2 basic troops, Kroot and Fire warriors. Fire warriors have a wholesale tradeout option....
Chaos marines, 6 basic Troops, do not have any wholesale tradeouts I am aware of.
Dark Eldar, 2 basic troops, are the same.
Eldar, 4 basic troops, no wholsale tradeouts.
Necrons, 1 basic troop, no options.

I am leaving Nids and Guard off because they have tons of options for their troops choices, especially Nids.
But you get the picture.

If you are gonna whine and gripe over my tactical marines not having grenades modelled, be prepared to hear likewise coming back across the table. Besides.. sometimes the owning player forgets his stuff has grenades....

FlingitNow wrote:nkelch

I think you should read the WYSIWYG rule. It is certainly only for options (not for base equipement) and the rule does only pertain to Characters.

*You must use stock Citadel models as 'each model has its own characteristic profile' and the models must be modeled correctly. Pg. 3
*You must show all equipment on Characters even base equipment. Pg. 47
*You must show all upgrades for all models. Specified every codex.

Those 3 combined pretty much covers everything. All your models must be correct for the unit, all the upgrades and then the character needs to be WYSIWYG for you to use them.

Reasonable exceptions can be used with Rule #1 and opponents consent.

*You must use stock Citadel models as 'each model has its own characteristic profile' and the models must be modeled correctly. Pg. 3

Yes this means you can't use conversions because by definition conversions aren't citadel miniatures...

*You must show all equipment on Characters even base equipment. Pg. 47

Seriously read the rule you only have to have options modelled on the characters not base equipement.

*You must show all upgrades for all models. Specified every codex.

Granted I don't have every codex but the selection I do have have different rules. Eldar and Tau for example require you to show all weapons the model is taking (but allows you to model further unused weapons if you want), Space Marines (of varying flavour) require options, however 'Nids requires absolutely nothing which sort of blows your whole arguement straight out of the water...

JEEZ PEOPLE

No, not you normal people, the people that are yelling "OMG YOU NEED 100% WYSIWYG ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!"

Just go with what makes sence.

@ nkelsch, I get that your shootaboyz just come with shootas and thats easy for you to model because all you do is use the model. I get that your 'ardboyz are equipped with stikkbombs so you modeled it. But for SM players, eldar players, and the like, its much harder than it is for you. Now go out, buy 2 boxes of 10 marines (one for the 10 marines, one for the extra bitz you will need) build and paint a squad of 10 with everything 100% WYSIWYG and see how cluncky and just plain bad they will look. You dont need 100% WYSIWYG

What most players go by, is any important things must be modeled on your model. If your Grey Hunter is equipped with a PF, model the PF. If your tac squad has Bolters and Bolt Pistols, model the bolters, and then it is your opponent's job, not yours, to be familiar with every codex and know what your tac squad comes with (excluding beginner players). If he is unsure, he can open his mouth and say so. Frag and Krak? All marines have it, there is no way to get rid of it, no need to model it, your opponent should know that all marines have frag and krak.

If you have an Assult Squad, the Jump packs are obviously important enough to model, but if you want one marine to look cool and hold two chainswords instead of his bolt pistol, that should not make your army invalid for a tournament, and especially not for a friendly game. It is not misleading in any way, he DOES have 2 CCW.

Furthermore, you dont even need to model all your ardboyz with the stikkbombs, if you have a squad of 30, anywhere from 5-15 of them holding stikkbombs in plain sight is enough to show that your squad has stikkbombs. Same thing with nids. Does every genestealer have to be modeled with toxin sacs? Heck No! As long as you can tell the squad has something, its fine.

Stop being bi***y about this people, YOU should know what something is basically equipped with. Important things like upgrades, jump packs, and important basic equipment and the like must be modeled, but past that, no.

zeekill wrote:JEEZ PEOPLE

No, not you normal people, the people that are yelling "OMG YOU NEED 100% WYSIWYG ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!"

Nobody is yelling.

The statement being made is that 100% WYSIWYG is the ideal. That's really all there is to it. How closely you actually adhere to it is up to you and your opponent.

For the record, I don't bother with grenades on everybody... they go on if they go on. I haven't gone back and modelled bolt pistols on my Marines and Chaos Marines yet, although I probably will put them on any future models I add into these armies.

I would never tell an opponent that they have to model these things. I would not have a problem with an opponent whose Marine squad, for example, was missing a bolter or two, or who was using a Genestealer brood with the biomorph heads on only a couple of models, or who had grenades on a unit that isn't actually equipped with them...

The ideal situation is for all models to be WYSIWYG. I prefer to stick as close as possible to it when assembling an army, and it makes the game easier if everyone else does the same thing. But it doesn't break the game if it's not followed... just means that you potentially wind up spending a little more time asking/explaining what's what.


So, seriously, a little more calm would be nice. Nobody is trying to force you to go out and remodel your armies. Nobody is going to refuse to play you because you don't have grenades on your models. All that is being said is that WYSIWYG means exactly what it says on the tin.... following it is a courtesy, but how closely you follow it is up to you and your opponent.

The problem is that meeting this ideal, from a modelling stand point isn't going to happen.
The models are small and the trend is for bigger than needed weapons.
100% isn't even shown on GW's own model collection. Thus they do not adhere to that stringent requirement.
Making all other players follow a modelling rule their own models do not reflect is in line with "Do as I say, not as I do."

helgrenze wrote:The problem is that meeting this ideal, from a modelling stand point isn't going to happen.

Which isn't a problem, because most players don't care that much.

So what happens in practice is that people model what they can and call it good enough, or just model what they feel like and explain it to their opponents at the start of the game.



Again, nobody is saying that you have to make all of your models 100% WYSIWYG. All that's being said is that it is the ideal.

I have a squad of Fallen Dark Angels veterans (2nd ed rules) that I used as a bodyguard for Cypher in an Imperial Guard army once. Two or three of them had meltas or plasmas but I bought everyone power weapons. I modeled those guys with guns in hand and power axes slung on their backs so no one could make it an issue

Pockets. All of my armies wargear is stored in their pockets. Problem solved.

The idea behind WYSIWYG is to keep the game honest, not to enforce it. A model has two CC weapons, a CC weapon and a pistol, or is just Jackie Chan enough to have 2 attacks? An opponent who has no clue about your army isn't really going to get any wiser just 'cause those things are modeled or not, you still need to tell him they're CC beasts.

Btw, regarding WYSIWYG and grenades - not all models need them even realistically (except for the abomination which is using a flash-bang to blow a tank up...) since it's enough with one or two to create the effect they are meant to have.

I still hold, though, that no rule should exist which has the standard models for a unit illegal, even if most people are smart enough to ignore those rules.

zeshin wrote:Pockets. All of my armies wargear is stored in their pockets. Problem solved.

The same pockets as the space marine in Doom had to store his BFG9000 etc? Or the ones kept in most MMO's - you know, the one you just put a 10 foot lance with extra murdering pointy things on in...

The humor in this thread is the best part!

I really liked the chaos marines image with the standard gear, or the necron player claiming wysiwyg, lol.

That's good stuff!

FlingitNow wrote:Yes this means you can't use conversions because by definition conversions aren't citadel miniatures...

This makes me crosser every time I hear it, even though I know it is tongue in cheek. A converted citadel miniature is still a citadel miniature in the same way as a painted citadel miniature is still a citadel miniature. Anyway, P67 of my CSM codex says I can so I will.

As a side note what Eldar models don't come WYSIWYG?

I can't hink of any off hand with the exception of the swooping hawks, but the grenade pack could carry the haywire grenades too i guess, or those little pouches.

Ahhhhhhhhhh

The joys of Necrons warriors that have no options...

Bliss



Edit: Do you have to model disruption fields?

Orion_44 wrote:As a side note what Eldar models don't come WYSIWYG?

I can't hink of any off hand with the exception of the swooping hawks, but the grenade pack could carry the haywire grenades too i guess, or those little pouches.

Dire Avengers - These units may not have grenades, the models have grenades.
Guardians - (optional grenades are provided for models which may not have grenades)
Rangers/Pathfinders - Most models do not show the shuriken pistols they have*
Swooping Hawks - only exhibit one sort of grenades (if you're generous)
Yriel - does this model have any grenades?
Baharroth - same deal as the hawks. No/too few grenades
Fuegan - does this model have any grenades?

I'm a bit uncertain about a few of these since I don't own a large range of new models (re-started after an 8 year break)

* It's not WYSIWYG if you need the argument "it's under the trenchcoat". (which incidentally is almost needed for Eldrad's pistol(holster))

At the risk of beating the horse far past the point of death, I'm pretty sure WYSIWYG is the standard. It's been a while since I've read through it, but it has been stated in the rules since at least 2nd edition. That being said, there are somethings that I'm willing to bend on, like grenades. Since GW updates almost every 5 years on the dot, it would be a pain to add and remove grenades every time they change what units can get grenades. Hard-wired systems and internal mods I think are fine as well, just list what they have and make sure your opponent knows about them and is fine with it. The keys, I think, are communication and common sense. Little things like grenades, fine, but don't try and tell me that the marine with a bolter is actually holding a plasma cannon.

Mahtamori wrote:

Dire Avengers - These units may not have grenades, the models have grenades.
Guardians - (optional grenades are provided for models which may not have grenades)
Rangers/Pathfinders - Most models do not show the shuriken pistols they have*
Swooping Hawks - only exhibit one sort of grenades (if you're generous)
Yriel - does this model have any grenades?
Baharroth - same deal as the hawks. No/too few grenades
Fuegan - does this model have any grenades?

I'm a bit uncertain about a few of these since I don't own a large range of new models (re-started after an 8 year break)

Seriously though, there are no rules as to exactly what each type of equipment looks like. If there was a purchasable sprue called 'assault grenades' it would be a different matter. As an example, Guardians have things that look like grenades but they could be anything. Swooping hawks don't look like they have grenades but if you say the bits over their knees are grenades no one can contradict you.

This makes WYSIWYG a complete non-issue for basic troop choices and I think it is going too far to expect people to convert models simply to comply.

WYSIWYG has gone too far when you start to require all standard equipment to be shown on a model.

Yes, if it is in any way optional, the equipment should be modeled; however, requiring all standard equipment to be shown on a model is just plain silly, and I have yet to attend a tournament that required it....and I have been playing since 2nd ed.

Alerian wrote:WYSIWYG has gone too far when you start to require all standard equipment to be shown on a model.

Requiring all standard equipment to be modelled is most certainly not going too far with WYSIWYG... it's the very definition of it.



But again, nobody (at least from my experience) is really that bothered about it. Having your models as close as possible to WYSIWYG makes things easier, but in more than 15 years, I have yet to see someone turn down a game due to something not being represented.

In actual game-play it's an ideal, not usually a requirement.

Grey Templar wrote:well, since marines are now standard with Frag and Krak you just have to have every model have frag and krak grenades.

Incorrect.

Black Templars do not come standard with Frag/Krak Grenades

insaniak wrote:

Alerian wrote:WYSIWYG has gone too far when you start to require all standard equipment to be shown on a model.

Requiring all standard equipment to be modelled is most certainly not going too far with WYSIWYG... it's the very definition of it.

Here is where we have to disagree, especially since GW doesn't even supply the necessary bits/kits to make many units WYSIWYG with their standard equipment.

Here are two easy and common examples:
CSM: Bolters, CCW and Pistols - not all supplied
SM: Bolters and Pistols - not all supplied

If GW can't be bothered to supply the basic bits needed to field these 2 very common troops as WYSIWYG with their standard euipment, then players expecting WYSIWYG for all standard equipment is going too far, period. Sure, the optional weapons should be required to be shown. However, until such a time as GW starts to include all standard equipment along with their models, players should not be expected to show standard equipment, in order to be in line with WYSIWYG.

Of course, if you really want to be a stickler about my standard equipment not being visible, you better not bring any models with helmets covering their faces. If you do, I will not let you shoot at my Guardsmen, since you have no eyes showing on your model. No visible eyes = No shooting, since you have nothing to draw LOS from, if you really want to take WYSIWYG as far as it can go

Alerian wrote:Here is where we have to disagree, especially since GW doesn't even supply the necessary bits/kits to make many units WYSIWYG with their standard equipment.

You're arguing the application of the rule against the meaning of it.

WYSIWYG means, literally, that what you see is what you get. Meaning that the model on the table should represent the trooper/vehicle/whatever in the army list.


Whether or not GW supply parts to make a model fully WYSIWYG has no bearing on whether or not the model is fully WYSIWYG.

If GW can't be bothered to supply the basic bits needed to field these 2 very common troops as WYSIWYG with their standard euipment, then players expecting WYSIWYG for all standard equipment is going too far, period. Sure, the optional weapons should be required to be shown. However, until such a time as GW starts to include all standard equipment along with their models, players should not be expected to show standard equipment, in order to be in line with WYSIWYG.

Which, again, isn't a problem because nobody does require all standard equipment to be shown.

Of course, if you really want to be a stickler about my standard equipment not being visible,...

I don't. As I have mentioned a couple of times now in this thread.