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FlingitNow wrote:page 59 Eldar Codex (second sentence under Using the Army lists):

Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the models.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Holy mother of god...is this true?! Or was this just pointed out in the 'Fun list of RAW fun' thread for kicks and giggles, because it makes no sense? Do I seriously have to stick a bolt pistol, separate boltgun, and two different kinds of grenades onto each and every Space Marine I field in a tactical squad? I don't think they come with enough bits to do that...

See the third and forth words.

Even Eldar are rarely held to that degree of scrutiny, however.

I believe your model is supposed to represent what it is carrying as far as WYSIWYG. That said, almost no one makes you do it 100%. As long as you are not calling a bolt pistol a las cannon you should be okay.

Long story short, make your models as close to what they carry as possible.

The day that your CSM army starts using the rules in the Eldar codex is the day that you'll be held to the rules in that codex.

solkan wrote:The day that your CSM army starts using the rules in the Eldar codex is the day that you'll be held to the rules in that codex.

You mean how everyone doesn't totally use the Eldar Codex to claim that Astropaths stack?

Jimsolo wrote:Holy mother of god...is this true?! Or was this just pointed out in the 'Fun list of RAW fun' thread for kicks and giggles, because it makes no sense? Do I seriously have to stick a bolt pistol, separate boltgun, and two different kinds of grenades onto each and every Space Marine I field in a tactical squad? I don't think they come with enough bits to do that...

Even without a rule saying so, this should be how you set up your models, yes. That's the whole point of WYSIWYG.

Most people don't stick to it that strictly though. So long as your models aren't too confusing for your opponent (or for yourself) it's generally not a problem.

The day GW gives me every part in a box to be totally WYSIWYG is the day all of my basic equipment is modeled. Otherwise all my tactical marines are storing their pistols like robocop and we already threw all of our krak grenades.

But yes, as stated above, even for Eldar, as long as all of the non basic stuff is modeled and it's clear then I've never seen anyone have issue with it.

I think one could easily say the grenades are in the pouches, or backpacks, or even that modeling a single model throwing one in a squad shows the squad has them.

I think that's what most folks expectation is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT obviously none of thos pouches are big enough to hold bolter amo, or on eldar models shuriken pistols so what else is in there anyway?

Ok maybe Eldar have trail mix I guess, granola probably.

<^_^>

Augustus wrote:EDIT obviously none of thos pouches are big enough to hold bolter amo, or on eldar models shuriken pistols so what else is in there anyway?

The smaller marine pouches could conceivably hold loose ammo, and the larger pouch is about the right size for a bolter magazine.

So far as grenades are concerned, the original fluff, and what seems to have crept back into the BL fiction, for Imperial grenades had them as small coin-sized discs, rather than the more real-world influenced grenades that come with the models.

Even without a rule saying so, this should be how you set up your models, yes. That's the whole point of WYSIWYG.

I disagree entirely WYSIWYG is mainly aimed at Characters and certainly only aimed at options not standard equipement.

The rule quoted only applies to Eldar as others have pointed out and the intention of WYSIWYG is clearly to allow your opponent to know what equipement you have. He'll know that all Grey Hunters have Bolter, BP, CCW, grrenades and power armour. I don't even really see the need for a Bolter or Bp/CCW combo to be on the model though they'd look rubbish unarmed. But picking out the plasma gun or melta gun or powerfist is necessary from a point of veiw of knowing what you're up against and keeping track of which differently armed models are casualties and/or have wounds allocated to them and/or are engaged with which units in CC.

Maybe they included it in the eldar codex specifically to stop people claiming thier guardian squads count as aspect warriors? I once had a game with someone who an army of banshee-dragons, looked very cool, but was also incredibly confusing.

FlingitNow wrote:I disagree entirely WYSIWYG is mainly aimed at Characters and certainly only aimed at options not standard equipement.

WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the whole experience easier for both players. It means exactly what it says: Whay you see is what you get.

That most certainly does not apply only to characters and non-standard equipment.


A player is not expected (particularly in a non-competitive setting) to remember what standard equipment is allotted to every single unit type in the game. He doesn't need to, because the game uses models to represent the various units, so he can just look at the model on the table to see what it is and what it is carrying.

That is what WYSIWYG is for.

Jimsolo wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:page 59 Eldar Codex (second sentence under Using the Army lists):

Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the models.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Holy mother of god...is this true?! Or was this just pointed out in the 'Fun list of RAW fun' thread for kicks and giggles, because it makes no sense? Do I seriously have to stick a bolt pistol, separate boltgun, and two different kinds of grenades onto each and every Space Marine I field in a tactical squad? I don't think they come with enough bits to do that...

actually that means Eldar are held to WYSIWYG, it doesn't mention marines at all.

I agree with WYSIWYG. Lets say you start your game as Space Marines. You have a tactical squad with all bolters, but you upgrade one to have a lascannon but the model doesn't have it so you oppenent doesnt know. Your oppontent, not seeing a threat from them, moves his battle wagon to expose its side for one reason or another, and you shoot at it with your lascannon, and it gets destroyed. Now your oppenent is thinking: WHAT THE HELL YOU DIDNT TELL ME YOU HAD A LASCONNON YOU &#$%#! WHAT THE HELL! And we all want to avoid that right? So either tell you oppenet or model it into the unit.

Almost every codex and the rulebook have a similar line saying your models must be 100% WYSIWYG.

People are surprised with this? Only recently has somehow the expectation that WYSIWYG didn't matter become somehow an argument people have attempted to make. It kinda happened when we could no longer get BITZ from GW. When we could get BITZ there was no excuse.

NON-WYSIWYG require opponent's permission. Most times this is not an issue because as long as it is clear and not abusive, most opponents are cool with it.

No one has a 'right' to use proxies in any game as far as the rules are concerned. So if your models are not WYSIWYG, you are in the wrong.

WYSIWYG is a good guideline, but am I seriously expected to have marines armed with frag and krak grenades, and a separate set armed with just frag or just krak, and a final set with no grenades? That means for every tac marine in my army I have to have 4 different models to accurately and completely model all their options. Of course heavy and special weapons need to be modeled correctly but there should be a realistic limit to the more minor wargear and equipment.

well, since marines are now standard with Frag and Krak you just have to have every model have frag and krak grenades.

zeshin wrote:WYSIWYG is a good guideline, but am I seriously expected to have marines armed with frag and krak grenades, and a separate set armed with just frag or just krak, and a final set with no grenades?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that there is no need to do this simply because marines have both as standard anyway... If you are using lists that have models with differing equipment, then yes, ideally you should have different models to represent each different load-out.

40K is a miniature wargame. The miniatures are a big part of the game, and so using the correct miniature is important.


But again, how closely you actually adhere to WYSIWYG is entirely up to you and your opponent. The argument for having everything accurately represented on a model is a statement of ideal, not a requirement that generally holds up in everyday play.

The basic Tac Marine equipment seems to change every edition of Codex/BGB.

I am not remodelling 250+ Marines every couple of years.

No way.

zeshin wrote:WYSIWYG is a good guideline, but am I seriously expected to have marines armed with frag and krak grenades, and a separate set armed with just frag or just krak, and a final set with no grenades? That means for every tac marine in my army I have to have 4 different models to accurately and completely model all their options. Of course heavy and special weapons need to be modeled correctly but there should be a realistic limit to the more minor wargear and equipment.

The most common convention is that all optional equipment must be modelled.

There's no need to model grenades on a marine because all marines have frag and krak, there's no choice in it.

Excuse me, but WYSIWYG is easily exploitable for RaW in more than just the Eldar codex.

If you don't feel like playing against Tervigons or Tyrannofexes, guess what, just tell your opponent they have to have the GW models for them. Oh, and his harpies and winged Tyrants too. The swarmlord as well. Oh look, now all he's got left is a ton of termagaunts.

As long as it's easy to tell the difference between an Autarch with fusion gun and a farseer with singing spear, you shouldn't care if he's using dark elf lord for one and a wood elf wizard for the other.

All the BEST armies throw WYSIWYG out the window and do awesome conversions of space marines surfing land raiders dual wielding bloodthirsters.

WYSIWYG isn't enforced on normal units, only MCs and ICs iirc.

Also, Eldar are NOT enforced WYSIWYG. They are forced to carry at least what they have in thearmy list. In fact, you are allowed to stick on a Shuriken Cannon to the back of a Banshee and get away with it as far as the rule is concerned. However, if you wish to have a Dire Avenger Exarch with a Direword and Shuriken Pistol, you better have either the arm with the sword or the separate sword and separate pistol(s) stuck to the model - can't have an Exarch with only the spear, no siree.

Luckily, enough, since going from 3rd to 4th edition saw both Guardians and Dire Avengers lose their grenades. Both models have these grenades still on them, and you have to clip and file them away to remove them from the leg sprue!

I dont think your expected to know every single troops load out in every army. But I also think some of you guys are taking the WYSIWYG way to literally. As long as you tell someone before the game, that SM come with both frag and krak, or CSM have a bolter/bolt pistol and CCW as a standard. OK Now I know so it wont be confusing later, easy cheesy.

Personally I use the WYSIWYG on anything that can be upgraded, thats where Ill get tougher on the rule. A marine with a meltagun, should be a sm with a meltagun, not a normal bolter. A nob should have what he is suppose to have, not look like every other nob with a slugga/choppa but REALLY hes a wolf in sheeps clothing and has a pk. Same with your HQ, your guys should be assembled to show what they have, not everything down to the footslogger, thats just over doing it.

I say use the GW standard..... like these Chaos Marines.... standard gear includes ccw & bp...

All I really wanted to know was wether or not GW sanctioned tournaments were going to bar me entry for not modeling an additional bolt pistol, as well as krak AND frag grenades, onto EVERY one of my marines. It seems silly. The set doesn't come with enough bits for that.

Jimsolo wrote:All I really wanted to know was wether or not GW sanctioned tournaments were going to bar me entry for not modeling an additional bolt pistol, as well as krak AND frag grenades, onto EVERY one of my marines. It seems silly. The set doesn't come with enough bits for that.

im pretty sure the answer is no.

just to make sure email the people organizing the tourny to be safe

My Necron army is 100% WYSIWYG. I hold myself to this standard, I expect other to do the same.

/joke

Sorry, quick clarification. I play BT and I just use marine in a general sense. So for BT the wargear dos matter. Sorry.

Mahtamori wrote:WYSIWYG isn't enforced on normal units, only MCs and ICs iirc.

From where do you recall this? None of this is true.

*My base units must be WYSIWYG, Shoota boyz must have shootas, Slugga boys must have Slugga/choppas
*My heavy weapons must be WYSIWYG, Big shoota boyz must have Big Shotoas, Rokkit boyz must have Rokkits.
*My upgrade Characters must be WYSIWYG, My nob must have his PK, or BC or whatever I give him.
*Grenades must be WYSIWYG. If my Orks are upgraded to have them, then I must show them. If I do not, they don't. Especially if one unit does, like a 'ardboy escort for Megaarmor IC who need grenades to assault through the Mega armor terrain, but the rest of my boyz don't.
*All my vehicles must be WYSIWYG and have the appropriate wargear and weapons. I cannot OVERMODEL by giving all my vehicles upgrades they are not using. Especially if some trukks ARE using Boarding planks but others are not.

So why would only ICs need to be WYSIWYG and everything else I can plop down whatever random model I want and call it whatever I need at the moment?

100% WYSIWYG is easy to obtain. The issue comes in when people want to change lists around all the time but don't want to own different or multiple models. Then learn to play with the gear you modeled and accept the disadvantages or advantages that combination gives you. If you can't handle that, play a video game that reconstructs pixels on the fly. Warhammer is a miniatures game based upon miniatures and modeling.

The RULES of the game are 100% WYSIWYG. With opponent's consent you can choose mutually with an opponent to relax any restrictions you wish. Also, events can require and enforce whatever level they wish... but there is no rule allowing you to force a non-WYSIWYG model upon anyone as the rule is WYSIWYG. If you want to be welcome with 100% of opponents and 100% of events, then you know the standard required. It is very nice to know my army is welcome wherever I go because I meet the standard set by the rules. I highly recommend it.

nkelsch wrote:100% WYSIWYG is easy to obtain.

It is easy to stick a bolter, bolt pistol, chainsword and two types of grenades to my chaos marines. If I did it for each model, however, they would (imo) look like ass. You know they are nilla marines and you know they can't change their layout. Why is WYSIWYG important in this instance? I agree that if I say they are actually plague marines or that the flamer is a plasma gun it becomes a problem, but if you don't take the pith surely there can be some leeway?