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Sorry Insaniak, that was a rhetorical "you", not directed an anyone in particualr. I was simply pointing out how I would respond to a true WYSIWYG fanatic who wanted to try to enfore it on me

As for application vs meaning...yes, I am talking application, in response to the OPs question about WYSIWYG in the Eldar dex. My point is that the meaning of the term far outreaches the capability of the models supplied by GW, as and such, the rule mentioned in the Eldar dex can only be followed to a certain extent.

nkelsch wrote:*You must show all upgrades for all models. Specified every codex.

For the sake of discussion, not actually specified in every codex.

The exceptions I could find just now, that do not explicitly say that the particular models must be depicted with upgrades purchased for the unit:
1. Space Wolves
2. Chaos Daemons
3. Dark Eldar

Edit: The warp appeared to have eaten my previous reply.

Soup and a roll wrote:Seriously though, there are no rules as to exactly what each type of equipment looks like. If there was a purchasable sprue called 'assault grenades' it would be a different matter. As an example, Guardians have things that look like grenades but they could be anything. Swooping hawks don't look like they have grenades but if you say the bits over their knees are grenades no one can contradict you.

This makes WYSIWYG a complete non-issue for basic troop choices and I think it is going too far to expect people to convert models simply to comply.

I fully agree, it is going way too far requiring basic troops to be fully WYSIWYG since in many cases it does require conversions or extra adaptions which really shouldn't be required to play (it's both a game and a painting/modeling hobby). Actually, not even "since in many cases" it's just taking the modeling part of the hobby too far, or alternatively giving the modeling part of the hobby too little creative space. It's much more important that players don't deceive each other and that you're allowed to make your models look good rather than conformative.

However, my notes regarding grenades were for models which (a) did not have grenades shown or (b) had clearly only a limited number of types of grenades shown. The models need to be believable - as in one look of grenades can't really be three different kinds if they were taken as separate options on a character, so they wouldn't qualify for WYSIWYG on a normal model, either.
It is especially poor if you get a model like Striking Scorpions which clearly has displayed their models and stand them next to a different model with different look of grenades but their loadout are the same. Over all, GW are pretty consistent in the Eldar line up that the plasma grenade is the egg-like object with the slim waist and the haywire grenades are the long cylinder shaped ones, so there are clear precedents, even if they aren't drawn in the codex like the heavy weapons are.

You're arguing the application of the rule against the meaning of it.

WYSIWYG means, literally, that what you see is what you get. Meaning that the model on the table should represent the trooper/vehicle/whatever in the army list.

But the rule only applies to options and debatably only Characters. That is what the rulebook tells us at least anyway.

WYSIWYG as a concept can apply to everything or you could choose to apply it totally but the rule itself specifically states that it only relates to options and strongly implies only options on Characters.

FlingitNow wrote:But the rule only applies to options and debatably only Characters. That is what the rulebook tells us at least anyway.

Which brings us full circle to 'that interpretation of the rule is questionable, and WYSIWYG has never been solely about a printed rule anyway...'


Yet again, WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier and (and thus more fun) to play. What the rulebook says about it is largely irrelevant. The rulebook doesn't tell you to shake your opponent's hand and thank them for the game either... but it's still the polite thing to do.

As long as I can tell what you've got going on, I'm happy.

If I can tell that your Shoota Boyz are Shoota Boyz, that's good enough for me.

If I can tell that your Daemon Prince has Wings, that works.

If I can tell your Tac Marines from your Sternguard from your Assault Marines, I'm good.

Which brings us full circle to 'that interpretation of the rule is questionable, and WYSIWYG has never been solely about a printed rule anyway...'


Yet again, WYSIWYG is a gaming convention intended to make the game easier and (and thus more fun) to play.

But this doesn't sit with your previous post about how the rule works. You claim it is a convention not about how the rule is written then when someone says that they think if you strickly apply the "convention" it doesnt' work with the given model set and you claim they are worried about the meaning of the rule not the application. But if it is solely a convention then that is purely application not a rule. If we're talking about the meaning of the rule then we are only talking about options and debatably only options represented on characters.

Either way his argument against strick adherence to the "convention" of WYSIWYG stands up.

Mahtamori wrote:Dire Avengers - These units may not have grenades, the models have grenades.
Guardians - (optional grenades are provided for models which may not have grenades)
Rangers/Pathfinders - Most models do not show the shuriken pistols they have*
Swooping Hawks - only exhibit one sort of grenades (if you're generous)
Yriel - does this model have any grenades?
Baharroth - same deal as the hawks. No/too few grenades
Fuegan - does this model have any grenades?

I'm a bit uncertain about a few of these since I don't own a large range of new models (re-started after an 8 year break)

* It's not WYSIWYG if you need the argument "it's under the trenchcoat". (which incidentally is almost needed for Eldrad's pistol(holster))

I see, the Dire Avenger grenades are an optional bit that I don't usually include. But I do have guardians modelled with grenades due to the fact that they were built in 3rd ed when they could take them!. Yup many Rangers don't have the pistols with the new models, most of the old one at least have part of the holter showing.

With Swooping hawks, they have the grenade launcher deal in their backpacks, like I said maybe they are just a differnent type, that one is the strech, I gues the DA grenages could go here.

Yriel and all autarchs may come with Plasma grenades so that would be a good call.
Fuegan needs melta bombs.

But yeah, that is a pretty small list, not like some of the armies.

FlingitNow wrote:But this doesn't sit with your previous post about how the rule works. You claim it is a convention not about how the rule is written then when someone says that they think if you strickly apply the "convention" it doesnt' work with the given model set and you claim they are worried about the meaning of the rule not the application. But if it is solely a convention then that is purely application not a rule. If we're talking about the meaning of the rule then we are only talking about options and debatably only options represented on characters.

Either way his argument against strick adherence to the "convention" of WYSIWYG stands up.

I suspect that you missed the point of that post, which was to point out that the fact that models are not supplied with all of the relevant bits has no effect on how WYSIWYG works.