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If you do the table out of wood the there is a 2-part resin that will seal and waterproof it. Stuff is a little expensive but will last forever.

It is carried at hobby lobby and home depot and is called Bar-cote (there is another version called enviro-tex). This is the super thick glossy stuff they use on bar tops and for wood that is going to stay constantly wet or submerged.

BTW, If you do the beach idea the you can put the drain plug in the ocean front/Lake front that could be your resevoir for ease of maintenance.

Don't worry about the negativity you are getting. If you have the time/money/access to the materials, then go for it! I wanted to do a board that could be flooded with water (possibly for use with dry ice effects) and I would love to see how this works out for you!

I love the idea but if you are going to do it, you would have to find a large tube.

This is because the regular fish tubes are just not big enough to have to good amount water flowing (a little more than a trickle)

I love the Idea personaly i would love to do a project like this but I don't have the room for a permenant board.
From past experience as an Architectural modelmaker (I helped make some fibreglass scenery for a music vid) I would sudgest getting a couple of really big blocks of polystyrene foam you could build a temporary wooden frame round it to stop it moving then carving a negetive of the scenery you want to create out of it remember that this way your river will run in the high spots.
Then use kitchen foil (spray mount it onto the foam) to create a barrier.
You can then resin and fibreglass straight onto it, remember to build up layers and you might want to add some sort of latice effect to the bottom for strength.
One custom and unique board. its the very expensive way of doing it but once its finished I recon it would be worth it.

mythological wrote:I love the idea but if you are going to do it, you would have to find a large tube.

This is because the regular fish tubes are just not big enough to have to good amount water flowing (a little more than a trickle)

Stores designed for aquariums tend to have the resources for this. If not find a place that carries the equipment for making little fish ponds. Those will most definately be able to push enough water. You may end up with rapids instead of a stream if you do this though.

Don't wish to put a dampener on your idea, if you will pardon the pun, but I have a couple of doubts as to how it will actually look.

First up kudos for thinking beyond the norm and I reckon the technical problems can be overcome. There are plenty of indoor miniature fountains. It may well be worth checking some of those out and now am thinking a waterfall and pool would be ace for my Dark Eldar landscape a la Roger Dean

Any hoo the only problem I can forsee is that water doesn't work to scale.

Also any vibrations from the table will transter to the water and spoil the effect.
Sorry to nit pick but getting the pace of the water right will be crucial imho.

sorry if anyone has already mentioned this but am not able to read to much off the screen at the moment.

Good luck. I hope you crack it.

I would like to say this is a great idea.

If you are going to do this you could try to put a clear cover over the "river" so there is no over spill or risk of anything falling/put in the water.
Plus with the cover minis could traverse the water without actually getting wet if needed.

The only thing I would say might be a turn off is hearing that low hummmmmmmmm of the pump going on for the whole game.

Stump wrote:The only thing I would say might be a turn off is hearing that low hummmmmmmmm of the pump going on for the whole game.

That, my friend, is what awesome wargaming music playlists are for.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Acrylics are not water soluble. Once it sets, it's set.

I beg to differ.

Granted, I'm talking about a more extreme measure than simply dipping the models, but I'd challenge you to take your nicest looking model and leave it sit in a cup of water for a couple days.

Your beliefs will change after that.


Eric

As discussed, acryilic paints will be fine. What won't be fine are the bases glued with pva glue, which will soften in water. If you don't have those, you're set!

Catyrpelius wrote:Dont listen to Grambo, it will be awsome. I think he is just jealous.

Jealous?I dont get jealous very often,and im certainly not jealous of a expensive table that could ruin its self and my models.

Sounds like a great Idea, if you can overcome the technical issues of keeping the water where you want it.

Like if your going for a river/stream build the board on a slant. The slant doesn't have to be great, a couple of degrees should do it.

But if your going for a waterfall or something like that, a natural looking desk fountain should be fine.

anyways good luck and looking forward to it.

/subscribed

Thereare some fun calculation you should do that concern slope and water-flow, sadly I can't remember them atm. But basically taking gravity as a downwards vector use trig to calculate the rate at which water will be drawn down the slope - calculate your flow rate and stuff to make sure you don't flood.....

Go for it or I'll do it first

So, I had a metal and a plastic mini with no varnish lying in a cup of water for about... 12 hours I think. They paintjob remained unharmed.

rocklord2004 wrote:I highly recommend designing it to go to a lake/beach area so you can have a resevoir for the water. I saw some self setting modeling clay/epoxy stuff at hobby lobby. The final product looked like a dark dried mud and should be waterproof. If you use that or something like it as a bed to your river and resevoir it will give a more natural look and if you embed some rocks in it the surface of the running water will get broken and add to the effect. To mask where the fountain is pumping the water out you could design it to look like an underground spring pumping out water and feeding the river. I agree with the others that aquarium equipment should work out the best.

That's my idea right there ha. I've been drawing up concepts and designs for months now and basically am making a mars themed board with a 'pride rock' waterfall and fish tank embedded into the gaming board.

No running river though, except from which flows to the waterfall and into the 'beach'. To achieve this I am having an exotic animals/salt water fish expert make up the lining and tank components (coral, anenamie ect.) with the proper sealent. Thinking he's going to use some form of apoxy to seal the gameboard and tank together. And then to achieve the running waterfall and top river portion I will be using pvc piping, apoxy, plexy glass or fibre glass, and then rubber lining. Then to link it all together will be a standard tank fish pump. For the waterfall to keep the water falling in a straight-ish line and not splashing onto the clear cover for the 'top' of the water I will be using a piece of clear plasic running from the lip of the cliff to the base of the lake.

If you have any other questions you'd like to ask about the designs for the water flow feel free to PM me.

I've seen some articles about using real water in layouts in Model Railroader over the years. It certainly is doable, and since you won't be leaving this set up 24/7 (presumably), you will avoid a lot of the mold/algae issues that would plauge a layout.

My suggestion for sealing the river bed would be to use an epoxy like West System. I'm not sure if that is available by you, though! It is easy enough to get in the States, though.

Instead of going to a pet store to find a pump, you should look at a local home improvement store. What you want is a fountain pump something like http://www.harborfreight.com/66-gph-mini-submersible-pump-45303.html

I think it's a great, if complicated idea. The only thing that bothers me about it is scale, but that's just me. For the same reason people paint in the NMM style, keep in mind that water does not look or behave the same scaled down to 28mm. You're going to have some murk to the water (please, not indigo blue) and make is flow very slowly to get it looking non-toy like. A very gentle slope with a very small pump is probably best. Like someone recommended above, I'd look at those "meditation" water features that are supposed to sit on your desk. I don't know if they have them in the Netherlands, but every store has those junky things in the U.S.

It will be challenging, but I definitely think you should do it!

Just some inspiration (although they don't have real water)

http://lacreekfreak.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/lar-model-train.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/amexpressnscale/images/KokomoRiver.jpg

It can work and can look pretty decent. Here are some HO scale docks from Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg that use real water:







As good as it looks though, personally I think resin looks a bit better as the waves are more realistic (if static). If I was going to attempt this sort of project, I'd probably make sure the water was fairly fast flowing, probably by doing multiple levels - a fast flowing (with bubbles to add to the effect) clear plastic box or pipe just below the waterline, with water flowing slower over the top of it too (and little rocks and things sticking out of the waterline to cause the water to move around a bit more).

4:30 is where the shi* is getting real.

real flowing waters,cooling units,lasers,fog,searchlights,rotating radars,streetlights...its just unbelievable

honestly,watch this and cry

not going to look at that HamHam coz if I do I may never build another bit of terrain

Hey Zeronyne, that was my line (sans linkies)
I grew up watching Gerry Anderson.
Plenty of Stingray and Thunderbirds scenes show how water looks with models.

Legoburner has it right imho with fast moving water except the Orkses might want to go white water rafting!

One of my other hobbys is Dart frogs so I have some experience with flowing water

1) don't use aquarium pumps as they cost too much. Go to your hardware store they will have slightly larger versions of the same pumps for less money.

2) Envirotex lite or something similar is going to help you a lot, finish your terrain and then give it a nice thick resin coating. this will a) always make it look wet and b) waterproof it for you. Also it is fairly cheap.

3) Make sure you have a downspout at the bottom as the water will curl out and under your table. Make sure you plan to have to remake this multiple times as water is very unpredictable.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:not going to look at that HamHam coz if I do I may never build another bit of terrain

i wish it could be unseen...

Wow that Cities of Death board is amazing i nearly feinted

If the wetness is a problem for the playing surface then cover the warerways with perspex. You'll then have a totally solid gaming surface with water flowing underneath.

Just need to be careful with cleaning it, although having an algae encrusted base layer might actually make it look more realistic (just be careful with the legionella)

Coat the bottom of the riverbed (after painted, sand, etc.) with citidale water effects, I'm pritty sure it's waterproof.

I love the ambitiousness of this project, and I may just end up stealing your idea just so you know. That being said I've built 4 different Glen-L boats and am currently working on project #5 on rainy weekends. I have a bit of familiarity with hydraulics, fiberglass, and electrical so I might be able to help you avoid some mistakes along the way. I'm gonna break down the idea into constituent parts just to make it easier to work with and organize my ideas.

Water recirculating system
You need:

Pump

Plumbing to get the water back up to the top of your river; and

Collection reservoir

The pump flow rate is gonna be the hardest thing to nail down, a pump with an adjustable flow rate would be good but keep in mind its going to be more expensive too. You want a pump that is 120 VAC so you can just plug it into the wall (assuming that is your standard outlet voltage as it is here in the states). A submersible pump would be quieter but an inline pump would be easier to plumb and mount. Noise is going to be more of an issue with an inline pump as well, but I doubt you'll notice too much with the volume you would be dealing with.

If you want a river that is too big for models to assault across it would have to be 6" at a minimum, and a perfectly straight 6" wide river running the entire 8' (96") length of a board at only 1 inch deep would be 576 cubic inches, or roughly 2.5 gallons. On the other hand if you wanted a little tiny .25" deep 1" wide creek you would have like 24 cubic inches or around .10 gallon. Something to note here is that a gallon of water weighs a little over 8 lbs so regardless of what you decide your very quickly going to need to think about how your going to structurally reinforce your board if you start to get crazy, especially with that reservoir (more about that further down).

Once you figure out the design of your river try to figure out its volume using that you can work out a flow rate. I don't know enough about hydrodynamics to help you figure out a flow rate based on change in height, but you could just estimate flow rate on a small scale with some sand and a gallon jug of water. Fill a rectangular pan with sand and turn it over on a table or something outside, shape a river bottom into it and time how long it takes to drain a gallon jug of water through it at the speed you like, then just work the numbers backwards to figure out how many GPH that is. Once you have an idea for shape get some foam insulation panels from the hardware store and cut in your river a bit deeper that you would like it to end up to account for the river lining material.
After you get all that figure out start roughing up some number for your collection reservoir, it should be at least 3 times the volume of the circuit [return line + whats on the board] so bubbles can rise out of the water before the water goes into the pump. This prevents damage to the pump as the air pockets bursting can damage seals and wear on the pump.

Plumbing is going to be easy, the head pressure of the pump will determine how much water it can stack up above itself but I doubt you'll get good technical numbers like that on any cheap aquarium pump, more likely on a pump meant for concrete fountains from your local home improvement store. Regardless, head pressure + volume of your return pipe = flow rate of the water coming downstream. This is why an adjustable pump is more desirable, you COULD do all this maths and hope you've accounted for every inefficiency and that your pump's flow rate forever remains stable, or you could just turn a knob a bit on your pump.

Board surface
Someone suggested fiberglass, I don't think that is a very good idea at all. It's fumes are disgusting, it's sticky as all get out, it gets on your skin no matter what you do and your skin will often times rash and burn when exposed to it, and that's its good side! It's bad side is that it generally melts many foams. Not to mention its impossible to paint or glue anything to it unless you sand it which is even less fun. I would probably use concrete patch, maybe Quikrete vinyl patch or something like that. Whatever you choose remember to read the product's MSDS sheet and wear a respirator with the right cartridges if needed, it's cheap insurance IMO.

If I were doing this I would probably start with totally flat 2" thick 6' x 8' insulation sheating, maybe 2 or 3 layers of it. Below it would be a 6' x 8' sheet of OSB or plywood. I would box in the foam sheating with more OSB or ply sides and have them extend below the bottom 2"-3". Then I would use structural lumber 2" x 4" to frame the underside for strength and give more surface for the side rails to attach to. After that rough outline the river and use a dremel or router set to the depth I wanted to cut out the river and frame at the river head and tail. Patch in the river bottom along with a bunch of gravel and sand on top to make it more dynamic. Raise the upstream side of the board a bit with something shoved under it and start testing water flow rate with a stop watch and gallon jug at different heights. Once happy with the results I'd buy the pump, plumbing, reservoir, and fabricate something to keep the board at that angle. Then either plumb the return back through the foam "underground" if I was feeling up to it or just route the plumbing along the outside of the frame if I wasn't. You could always make it look like an oil pipeline and tie it into the board playing surface too if you wanted.

Just wow HamHam....thats all I can say to that thing.

In my eyes, nothing is impossible. That's why I started this hobby.

I like you already