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Battlebox is still cheaper than a new video game for the current gen systems.

$10 less than Red Dead Redemption that I bought last week

Little Pete wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:You can draw comparisons on many items/things and both way to expensive if you ask me, just because I think most GW stuff is overpriced and so is PP stuff, doesnt means others share my perception for value.... but excuse me for repeating myself GW starters are way cheaper than these PP starters.

What are you talking about here?

I repeated myself to enforce that, the comparison I did was regarding just Starters and not other types of products ( like other users compared with).

In the market for a X wargame there are all types of products, from starters to hobby complements, tokens, etc
PP released these starters and I compared them with other company starters, wich I think its a more "similar type of product" comparison.

Giving the horse another kick.

When PP released the starters waay back, they were around $40, right?
At the time GW had starters out that were only $50.

But PP is going strong, so many people seem to have seen the value in what they were selling.
Now, many years later, the box is $50. With the same number of pieces.

I would say that their current competition would be Malifaux, where crews are $30-40. For about the same number of much smaller pieces.
I think that they are competitive with each other in terms of value.

Now the GW ones, are overpriced in their value to me, because they are limited to the armies they have. I can't choose to buy a Dark Elf starter, or a Tau starter.
I still need to buy the big book, or wheel n deal for a little book. So entry is around $150 (Battalion+Book or Book+2xTroop+HQ).
There is no value to GW starters if I do not want the prepackaged armies.

Warmachine entry is $85. Battlebox+Book. Card deck is not needed since everything in box should come with the current cards.

Malifaux entry is $65-80, varies by crew.

NAVARRO wrote:I repeated myself to enforce that, the comparison I did was regarding just Starters and not other types of products ( like other users compared with).

In the market for a X wargame there are all types of products, from starters to hobby complements, tokens, etc
PP released these starters and I compared them with other company starters, wich I think its a more "similar type of product" comparison.

I can understand your point when you consider playing space marines or orks, as the AOBR set is really fantastic value. Otherwise though, you are in a much tougher position to make value judgements.

PP starter set $50, Prime Mk2 $30, Mk2 faction card set $20 making $100 total to get playing with a small force.

Tau Battleforce $90, Tau codex $25, 40k Rulebook $55 making $170 total to get playing with a small force. Even getting a cheaper small rulebook for say, $20 leaves you at $135 for a comparable starter.

As far as I know, the Tau BF is considered one of the most complete to play with, suggesting that the other boxes would provide worse value, particularly when trying to scale up to higher points.


I would have liked to see the price go down with PP plastics but you can't have everything. Personally, the aesthetics of the new cyngar light jacks doesn't appeal to me so I'll be looking for people selling off the old metal ones for cheaper.

NAVARRO wrote:
I dont know about everyone else, but I think everyone has its own personal perception of value for your money.
Well for huge chunk of metal I could (maybe) take the price but for a starter in plastic? Besides GW teached us how ridiculous expensive things can be yet... looking at GW starters these PP ones... GW feels cheap in comparison.

I agree with your first statement, that everyone has a different view of cost vs value...but saying that GW is cheap in comparison? I suppose if you are talking starters, BfSP and AoBR do come with more models...but overall, the game system is set up to where you need a boatload more models to play a competitive game. Granted, for $90, you get both Orks and Marines, you even get a simple, single pose dread with no weapon options and 3 def-koptas. How many points is that? (A dread, 10 marines, and a captain?) That doesn't even satisfy the minimum compulsory choices for an army.

What's the smallest point value game you can play, even a friendly game at a local store? Lets say 500pts. Now, what do you need to play that 500 pt game? (Dread with A-Cannon=105, 10 tac marines with flamer and ML=170, Captain with Power Sword=115...total=390) You could make this 500 pts by adding $22.50 for a 5 man tac squad and by messing with upgrades, etc. Lets say you are in only $45 bucks, because you split it with a buddy....now one of you still needs to buy the rulebook for $57.75....or another Black Reach set for $45 (again, splitting it with aforementioned buddy)....Oh Noes, what's this? We still need to buy a codex for $30? And this is assuming you want to play Space Marines or Orks....and the poor Ork player needs to fork out even more money to get to 500 pts. Now how many competitive tournaments have you played at 500pts? Me? none. Smallest Tourney I've ever heard of was 1000pts, smallest 'Ard Boyz, I think has been 1850.

Let's look at Warmachine now. You get the starter box for $50, there's fewer choices (they haven't been around since the 1980's like GW), but you get to choose whichever one you want. Then your buddy picks one up for the same price, again, whichever one he wants...even the same one if he wants. Quick start rules get you started, the core rules are available on the internet, because they released them on their website after they let the community help playtest their new rules set. If you don't have internet access or a printer, or you just like having the pretty rulebook, you can pick it up for $30. No need for a $30 codex, the rules and points values are printed on the cards that come with each and every model you buy. As far as points, Deneghra (and all other casters) have what are called "Jack Points" which are points you get to spend for free on Warjacks only. Denny has 5. The 'Jacks in her starter set are Slayer=6, Deathripper=4(x2) and Defiler=5...which is 14 points using Denny's 'Jack points. This is playable competitively right out of the box, as one of the game types is called "Mangled Metal" and is basically a caster and up to 15 points of Warjacks. The next step up is a 25 pt game, and the tiers go up form there to 35 and then to 50 and beyond (you can play whatever point level you want just like GWs games, these are just more common).

But then, you know all of this.

Ultimately we're still comparing apples to oranges to bananas here....a steam-punk skirmish game, to a sci-fi squad-based battle game, to a regimental-based fantasy battle game...

But to say that GW looks cheap compared to Warmachine (Which, of course, is your own personal view of cost vs value) seems a bit harsh.

I recognize your forum name and your avatar from Rackham's old Confrontation forums...so I understand your cynicism when it comes to miniatures games in general, having (like myself) gone through loosing the best looking range of fantasy metal miniatures there ever was...along with support for the game they were originally sculpted for...

Little Pete wrote:[PP starter set $50, Prime Mk2 $30, Mk2 faction card set $20 making $100 total to get playing with a small force.

If you buy these new Battleboxes there is no need to buy the card decks. Also, nearly everyhting I have bought in the last 2 months has had new cards.

A new player should not have to get the card deck

Good point Skrulnik, I was just comparing as like for like as I could. A 40k codex comes with info for all units of that army so I thought it only fair to include a card deck (or F.O.W book) to keep it even.

I actually perfer a lot of the "classic" sculpts over the new plastics. The bonejack in particular has a few issues that I really don't like. The lower jaw seems to lack definition. The new raised stacks and retooled spine spikes gives the jack a new profile, losing much of the old curved asthetic.

IMHO, the best thing to come of the new plastic heavies is the legs apart stance as opposed to the small legged stance of the "classics". The fit is much better, requiring much less cleanup. Stylewise, I'm not a huge fan of most of them. The best of the new plastics (and the only one that I'm giving a thumbs up to) are the Menite heavies - the new ones are a huge improvement over McVey's hamfisted original sculpts. The Cryx heavies are very much the same as their metals. The Cygnar heavies went a bit downhill as I feel that the huge rivets used on the new hulls are too prominent. The Khador heavies made out the worst, going from giving a hunched over brutish feel to a catroony awkward looking beetleback, with rounded popeye style arms. The overly featureless legs bother me as well.

Does a GW starter box get you almost 1/3 of the way to a tournament sized army?

Oddly enough, the PP's all do that for $50. And you have more selection than just Space Marines, Orks, Dwarfs, or Goblins to choose from.

I agree for the most part Keezus.

The cryx bonejacks look a bit nicer in metal (but not a lot between them for me) but the helljacks appear to be basically the same.

The Cygnar heavies are pretty good, but I'm not such a fan of the light jacks, even though they are more dynamic.

Khador's Jacks have increased in size and dynamism, which I like, but they have become a bit bloated on top in bulk.

The Menite jacks look really great and I think they are a big improvement, especially the vanquisher.

skrulnik wrote:
Warmachine entry is $85. Battlebox+Book. Card deck is not needed since everything in box should come with the current cards.

Warhammer 40k Entry is $90 (AOBR), and comes with enough for two players to play.

So comparable warmachine entry would actually be 2 battleboxes and 1 rulebook.

Plastic Slayer is a wash for me. I have 2 metals, so I built a Corruptor from my kit.

I just got my first Seether, and I really like that chassis. It replaces the Slayer for my favorite Helljack.

I don't care for the tiny spikes on the knees and back of the hands, but the rest is awesome.

12thRonin wrote:Does a GW starter box get you almost 1/3 of the way to a tournament sized army?

Oddly enough, the PP's all do that for $50. And you have more selection than just Space Marines, Orks, Dwarfs, or Goblins to choose from.

You're comparing the wrong things, actually.

GW's "starter" boxes are the Battalions/Battleforces. Things like Assault on Black Reach and Battle for Skull Pass can be likened to "starter sets", but they're more "quick-start" sets.

Small differences, yes--but they're not the same by far. Privateer very early on likened their Battlegroups to GW's Battalions/Battleforces "but with quick-start rules included".

whitedragon wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
Warmachine entry is $85. Battlebox+Book. Card deck is not needed since everything in box should come with the current cards.

Warhammer 40k Entry is $90 (AOBR), and comes with enough for two players to play.

So comparable warmachine entry would actually be 2 battleboxes and 1 rulebook.

That is only if you have two players, one who wants SM, one who wants Orks.
Ideal situation, yes it is $90 for 2 players for models. Still need a book for the 2nd player.

But then I could argue that you don't need the book for Warmachine, it comes with Quickstart rules.
Until you start buying more figures, you don't need it.

Uncharted Seas has a $80 entry, with the Iron Dwarves fleet being even cheaper.

Arcane Legions starter is $35, with 3 armies worth of minis. But only 2 armies worth of bases.

Furthermore, neither a battleforce nor AoBR gives a player a legal army (with the exception of AoBR orks, since warboss makes Nobz a troops choice) and even with the AoBR, that army is less than half the size you would need to play even the smallest, least common points level of regular play. (1000)
In WM, each battlebox comes with around 15 points, come with all of the models' rules, and are immediately playable. And I've seen a lot more games of WM played at 15 points than I have at 1000 in 40K. Now let's say you want to take it up to the next level. In 40K that's 1500 points. I'll leave calculating how much it would take to go from however many points your chosen 40K box set comes with to a legal 1500 point army to you. In WM, each army only has to add 2 models (and/or units) to their Battlebox to make a legal 25 point army.

Back on topic, the plastic kits look just fine to me. I probably won't get one though, at least not for Cryx, if only because I'll already have my box long before the release date.

Warmachine Starters are all under 15pts

Cryx is 14pts (because arc nodes are expensive). Breakdown is Deneghra -5, Slayer 6, Deathripper 4, Deathripper 4, Defiler 5.

Cygnar 11pts
Khador 11pts
Prot of Men 11pts

(I don't know the breakdown of the other factions, but I know they are all only 11. Was a Big Deal on the PP Forums awhile back)

Sure mates, if your not interested in the content of said starters, or just interested in only part of it the value as you see it worth gets shorter.
Also I look at sarters, and sorry for redundance, as a starter or introduction to something... I dont really espect to have a full army ready to go ( but if theres one i dont mind)

All of us have really diferent preferences I do not claim GW is cheaper than PP, we all know there are many factors that changes the prices, for example a skirmish orientated investment is diferent to regiments mass battles etc and there the argument that we are addressing apples and oranges does fit...
yet, I do claim that for the starters of both companies, the GW ones are cheaper and that even for diferent gamming types a starter is just that, a initiation box set that should lure your interest in futher purchases of the game... So speaking exclusively of starters alone I think they are both oranges because both do have the same objective/role.

As for rackham comment yes I do miss the old days But like everything in life we have to adapt and I did, got some infinity, some mercs, some alkemy etc... also got Warmachine but had to drop it unfortunatly.

Fango wrote:What's the smallest point value game you can play, even a friendly game at a local store? Lets say 500pts. Now, what do you need to play that 500 pt game? (Dread with A-Cannon=105, 10 tac marines with flamer and ML=170, Captain with Power Sword=115...total=390) You could make this 500 pts by adding $22.50 for a 5 man tac squad and by messing with upgrades, etc. Lets say you are in only $45 bucks, because you split it with a buddy....now one of you still needs to buy the rulebook for $57.75....or another Black Reach set for $45 (again, splitting it with aforementioned buddy)....Oh Noes, what's this? We still need to buy a codex for $30? And this is assuming you want to play Space Marines or Orks....and the poor Ork player needs to fork out even more money to get to 500 pts. Now how many competitive tournaments have you played at 500pts? Me? none. Smallest Tourney I've ever heard of was 1000pts, smallest 'Ard Boyz, I think has been 1850.

the set also comes with a squad of five terminators (no frills) for an additional 200pts. while i agree that the set doesn't give you a standard playable army out of the box (unless you model your 10 man tact squad as two 5 man squads), the five termies would otherwise cost you $50 and are not a neglible ommision from your example. since it seems like half the players out seem to have a marine army, the starter is still a good buy (and a good start) for alot of people. of course, that was before they raised the price two weeks ago. *grumble*

skrulnik wrote:Warmachine Starters are all under 15pts

Cryx is 14pts (because arc nodes are expensive). Breakdown is Deneghra -5, Slayer 6, Deathripper 4, Deathripper 4, Defiler 5.

Cygnar 11pts
Khador 11pts
Prot of Men 11pts

(I don't know the breakdown of the other factions, but I know they are all only 11. Was a Big Deal on the PP Forums awhile back)

I'd have thought they'd drop one Deathripper, upgrade the other to another Defiler (or show off their new 5 pt Ripjaws), and even it out to the same two lights, a heavy, and a caster for 11 pts that all the other boxes (save Khador's no lights) set up.

I hate most of PP's models but I do have to say if I were to start warmachine cryx would be the army I'd start they really look good from some of the models ive seen, granted they still have horrible looking models but luckily they are in the minority for this army.

Every battlebox comes with at least one heavy jack. And the heavy jacks come with the parts to make 3 or 4 different variants. So if you grab the cygnar starter and a heavy box, you can make 2 of the Defender, Cyclone or 2x Ironclad. Grab the Khador Starter and a Khador Heavy and you can make 3 of the Decimater, Marauder and 2x both the Juggy and Destroyer. There are lots of threads about using rare earth magnets to make all these interchangable.

As far as the value compared to GW, on a per miniature cost, it obviously loses out to both the 40k and WFB starter. But on a percentage of a playable (or full sized even) game, it's an incredible value. And has been pointed out, the battallion and battleforce boxes are the closest thing GW has to an in-faction starter for each army.

I think GW should have no problem producing an HQ, 2 Troops, +1 other thing box for $50 and put the rules for that on a little card in the box. For WFB, it'd be a general and 3 small units, also with stats on a card. If it would cannibalize their sales as people just buy multiples of their starters, then they have a disconnect between their rules and the best way to get people into a game-- affordable starters for every army a person could want.

They look cool. I'd love to see them in person to feel for the construction and materials.

frozenwastes wrote:Every battlebox comes with at least one heavy jack. And the heavy jacks come with the parts to make 3 or 4 different variants. So if you grab the cygnar starter and a heavy box, you can make 2 of the Defender, Cyclone or 2x Ironclad. Grab the Khador Starter and a Khador Heavy and you can make 3 of the Decimater, Marauder and 2x both the Juggy and Destroyer. There are lots of threads about using rare earth magnets to make all these interchangable.

The way they're listing specific heavy and light `Jacks makes me think you're not going to get all the parts to make the variations, only the parts to make what is listed. I'm sure they would have raised the price if you got all the bitz, as the plastic `Jack kits with them cost more than the single version metal figs.

Aduro wrote:I'd have thought they'd drop one Deathripper, upgrade the other to another Defiler (or show off their new 5 pt Ripjaws), and even it out to the same two lights, a heavy, and a caster for 11 pts that all the other boxes (save Khador's no lights) set up.

I get the impression they want a certain type of gameplay out of th boxes. Change the bonejacks in the box, and Denny plays very differently.

Especially if you are running 2 spray jacks with a caster who throws Venom. That is a potential of 2 POW12 and 3 POW10 sprays.

With Deathrippers, I think a beginner would be more inclined to try to finesse play.

Hrm. The models do nothing for me... I suppose I just am not into that army.

Fallen668 wrote:Why is everyone complaining about the $50 price tag for the starters? It is the same price as the metal starters.

Not when I bought mine. I seem to recall paying considerably less than that when I bought my Cryx starter when it came out.
____

George Spiggott wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, OP left out that the box is $50.

Ouch.

So it's just OP now JH? So cold.

Sorry, George.
____

Little Pete wrote:The only starter set I can think of is AOBR ($75) that provides a lot more basic stuff than a WM starter set.

If PP did GW-scale starters, that would be pretty awesome. I might even buy more.
____

skrulnik wrote: I would say that their current competition would be Malifaux, where crews are $30-40.

Malifaux is metal, so they're what WMH used to be, bless their little souls.
____

Little Pete wrote: Ultimately we're still comparing apples to oranges to bananas here....a steam-punk skirmish game, to a sci-fi squad-based battle game, to a regimental-based fantasy battle game...

Given that the 40k / WFB are designed and playable at much larger scale, whereas WM/H is designed and sold as a skirmish game, the analogy would be GW watermelons & PP plums. And then complaining that a watermelon costs more than a plum...

Speaking of watermelons...

They all look great. I wish I had the spare time & cash to get into warmachine.. I can barely keep up with 40k and wfb as it is...

Bah, you only really need one kidney. That should get you enough to buy a batallion or two. :

Aduro wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:Every battlebox comes with at least one heavy jack. And the heavy jacks come with the parts to make 3 or 4 different variants. So if you grab the cygnar starter and a heavy box, you can make 2 of the Defender, Cyclone or 2x Ironclad. Grab the Khador Starter and a Khador Heavy and you can make 3 of the Decimater, Marauder and 2x both the Juggy and Destroyer. There are lots of threads about using rare earth magnets to make all these interchangable.

The way they're listing specific heavy and light `Jacks makes me think you're not going to get all the parts to make the variations, only the parts to make what is listed. I'm sure they would have raised the price if you got all the bitz, as the plastic `Jack kits with them cost more than the single version metal figs.

Right. But the heavy box does give you the parts for multiple jacks. The starter gives you one (or two for khador) heavy chassis and the arm/head/weapon parts for that particular jack. Buying another heavy will get you another chassis and another set of parts for each possible jack. It would be awesome if the starters came with the extra parts, but atleast you can get them from the heavy kit.