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GW has no rules saying that you can not field them.

1. They are a GW model.

2. The represent a member of the squad.

3. The only way to die is to fail or be neglicted a cover save.

For me, I'd like them removed first so that no crazy things happen later in the game. ie you can't see him.

I agree with the idea of wysiwyg, and what i see is a dead guy. This is no different than if you said you were proxying special weapons.

nkelsch wrote:

Technically using empty bases with rocks on them 'has no effect on the game at all'. This is a hobby and it requires models to be used for the game to take place. If you can't handle the hobby aspect you can play vassal online or use checkers and soda cans with your friends and play the meta game. The reason why you have 'swarms' is to represent creatures that are normally so weak they do not justify their own model and wound, but together they become strong enough to.

*If a Swarm has 1 model on the base, then you are saying that that one model is basically a 3 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.
*If a Swarm has 2 models on the base, then you are saying those models are stronger than a much larger infantry man and is more than a 1 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.

The opposite is also not supported by any rules whatsoever. Get a grip.

4+ models per swarm fits not only how they sell the swarms, how they designed them to be built but fits the rules. The models are weaker than a single model so combined they make a 3 wound base. Swarms look 'off' with less than 3 models per base and I know people are cheapskates in the age of plastics and do whatever they can to avoid fielding a fully WYSIWYG....

Stop right there. The only requirement to be WYSIWYG, is that there be a (insert swarm type here) model on the base. Get over it.

Just don't be so quick to try to force model on opponents

Some self contemplation might be needed here.

If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances.

This only makes me angry. Where do you get off judging anybody by their finances, or personal financial decisions? I applaud those people who decide that $35 might be too much to spend simply because they want 3 more bases of scarabs, yet don't need yet MORE Necron warriors. Others might just decide to spend the money on the stuff they don't need. It's all about personal preference. If you want fluff..... Scarabs often travel underground. This lone model just represents where they are. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't expect it to be accepted as "the way things are."

All in all, this is a game, and while arguments can arise over the rules, your entire post comes across as just petty and vindictive. You've spouted off about "modelling for advantage" but in reality the only advantage gained by placing only one model per base is that the player saved a very significant amount of money over someone who built the models exactly as shown. Maybe this is why you're so upset?

Lordhat wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances.

This only makes me angry. Where do you get off judging anybody by their finances, or personal financial decisions? I applaud those people who decide that $35 might be too much to spend simply because they want 3 more bases of scarabs, yet don't need yet MORE Necron warriors. Others might just decide to spend the money on the stuff they don't need. It's all about personal preference. If you want fluff..... Scarabs often travel underground. This lone model just represents where they are. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't expect it to be accepted as "the way things are."

All in all, this is a game, and while arguments can arise over the rules, your entire post comes across as just petty and vindictive. You've spouted off about "modelling for advantage" but in reality the only advantage gained by placing only one model per base is that the player saved a very significant amount of money over someone who built the models exactly as shown. Maybe this is why you're so upset?

I'm inclined to side with nkelsch on this. Bottom line, this is an expensive hobby, if you find yourself having to cut corners buying things a lot, maybe this isn't the thing for you. I mean, if you decided you want to restore old cars, you probably should be prepared to pay for car parts.

ryanjh wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances.

This only makes me angry. Where do you get off judging anybody by their finances, or personal financial decisions? I applaud those people who decide that $35 might be too much to spend simply because they want 3 more bases of scarabs, yet don't need yet MORE Necron warriors. Others might just decide to spend the money on the stuff they don't need. It's all about personal preference. If you want fluff..... Scarabs often travel underground. This lone model just represents where they are. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't expect it to be accepted as "the way things are."

All in all, this is a game, and while arguments can arise over the rules, your entire post comes across as just petty and vindictive. You've spouted off about "modelling for advantage" but in reality the only advantage gained by placing only one model per base is that the player saved a very significant amount of money over someone who built the models exactly as shown. Maybe this is why you're so upset?

I'm inclined to side with nkelsch on this. Bottom line, this is an expensive hobby, if you find yourself having to cut corners buying things a lot, maybe this isn't the thing for you. I mean, if you decided you want to restore old cars, you probably should be prepared to pay for car parts.

Your right, kids who can barely scrape enough allowance to put together a small army with carefully chosen purchases shouldn't play 40k. Because all of us started playing after we had 6 figure incomes so we could afford every model (forge world or otherwise) we wanted.

zeshin wrote:

ryanjh wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

nkelsch wrote:


If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances.

This only makes me angry. Where do you get off judging anybody by their finances, or personal financial decisions? I applaud those people who decide that $35 might be too much to spend simply because they want 3 more bases of scarabs, yet don't need yet MORE Necron warriors. Others might just decide to spend the money on the stuff they don't need. It's all about personal preference. If you want fluff..... Scarabs often travel underground. This lone model just represents where they are. You're welcome to your opinion, just don't expect it to be accepted as "the way things are."

All in all, this is a game, and while arguments can arise over the rules, your entire post comes across as just petty and vindictive. You've spouted off about "modelling for advantage" but in reality the only advantage gained by placing only one model per base is that the player saved a very significant amount of money over someone who built the models exactly as shown. Maybe this is why you're so upset?

I'm inclined to side with nkelsch on this. Bottom line, this is an expensive hobby, if you find yourself having to cut corners buying things a lot, maybe this isn't the thing for you. I mean, if you decided you want to restore old cars, you probably should be prepared to pay for car parts.

Your right, kids who can barely scrape enough allowance to put together a small army with carefully chosen purchases shouldn't play 40k. Because all of us started playing after we had 6 figure incomes so we could afford every model (forge world or otherwise) we wanted.

all i'm saying is these things cost money. if you can't buy a lot, stick with smaller games.

The fact is, these are limited edition Vostroyans. Not single-based scarabs. OP likes to use these, because they are nice models. Why should be not be allowed to use them?

ryanjh wrote:
all i'm saying is these things cost money. if you can't buy a lot, stick with smaller games.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't like the attitude I've seen from some people that "If you can't afford the same level of financial commitment to the hobby that I do you should play something else."

zeshin wrote:

ryanjh wrote:
all i'm saying is these things cost money. if you can't buy a lot, stick with smaller games.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't like the attitude I've seen from some people that "If you can't afford the same level of financial commitment to the hobby that I do you should play something else."

I don't mean the same level so much as a minimum level. If you don't have at least a couple hundred to get the core of your army made, its kind of hard to be able to play easily.

zeshin wrote:

ryanjh wrote:
all i'm saying is these things cost money. if you can't buy a lot, stick with smaller games.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't like the attitude I've seen from some people that "If you can't afford the same level of financial commitment to the hobby that I do you should play something else."

I don't think he quite meant it like that, I think he meant to stick small 40K games - point wise like kill-team and others.

ChrisCP wrote:

zeshin wrote:

ryanjh wrote:
all i'm saying is these things cost money. if you can't buy a lot, stick with smaller games.

I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't like the attitude I've seen from some people that "If you can't afford the same level of financial commitment to the hobby that I do you should play something else."

I don't think he quite meant it like that, I think he meant to stick small 40K games - point wise like kill-team and others.

Kinda, I basically just meant don't try to use proxies to make an army you don't have. I'm not saying never use proxies, they're fine if you want to test something or plan on buying something, just don't use units that aren't what you are saying they are permanently.

He's not using proxies. He's using GW sanctioned miniatures. That's why everyone is defending OP so rigorously.

spartanlegion wrote:These are the limted editon dead vostroyans. on normal base, painted, and flocked. I have 1 in each of 6 ten man squads...there are several prone positioned models in many other lines, and several very low stanced FW models...The dead vostroyans are always first to be removed as casualties....without these 6 mixed in I lose an entire squad.....no gaming advantage was intended either, and I point these minis out before a game....

Intent is everything, your intent is not to cheese out but play through. Without your six casualties you woiuld be a squad down. I have no problem with what you are doing.

However it is not unknown for the dead Vostroyans to be converted into prone snipers or heavy weapons, its takes a little work, but with six of them you could have a prone sniper squad. Snipers are easier as in addition to the greenstuff you can also add scrim like a sniper does

Orlanth wrote:
However it is not unknown for the dead Vostroyans to be converted into prone snipers or heavy weapons, its takes a little work, but with six of them you could have a prone sniper squad. Snipers are easier as in addition to the greenstuff you can also add scrim like a sniper does

I don't intend to use them forever. I do intend to replace the 6 with regular Vostroyan guard models.

However, I do think if I were to model the 6 dead men as living prone snipers, that would IMHO be trying to take advantage of rules & line of sight issues....Or at least it would look that way.....

I know this hobby is expensive (been doing it since 1989), and I try play with fully painted armies & with GW & FW models only (no stand ins models from other companies or paper or the likes......I try to respect the game & other gamers by showing up and playing a nicely & fully painted army for alls sake.....

However, having said that, if a kid comes in and has a primed army of orks and asks to use his brothers tau battlesuits as killa kans, I am not going to say no. If after several months, it's the same thing, I might avoid playing him....

Soup and a roll wrote:He's not using proxies. He's using GW sanctioned miniatures. That's why everyone is defending OP so rigorously.

wysiwyg, and what i see is a dead guy. As, i said before, this situation isn't much different than saying a guy has a special weapon that doesn't.

ryanjh wrote:wysiwyg, and what i see is a dead guy.

I see all your models as dead too. They were turned to plastic by the Hivemind.

You realize WYSIWYG is about the gear?

Modeling battle damage does not reduce the armor of your vehicles, does it?

Actually every model represents a MOMENT in time of that model's actions before, during, and after battle...

If a model is based or posed as jumping over a wall, I'm not going to say "Hey! That model requires a difficult terrain test everytime you move it!" OR if someone modeled a heavy weapons team behind a wall, I doubt they'll say they get a better cover save.....What if someone models their power fisted character as getting shot and the power fisted arm is in the midst of beeing torn off (very dynamic pose)....Can the gamer no longer use the power fist?

Heck, I could easily says these 6 Vostroyans are napping, shirking their duties, playing oppossum in wait for the enemy, or they are laying low during a bombardment.....not dead.....just prone positioned or shell shocked!

Honestly, I'd be ok with it. As long as you pointed out the models I don't see a problem.

As for the Swarms, I'd be fine with 2. 1 is stretching it, but 2 is perfectly fine. I field my scarabs in 3's, but I mean it's a game really. Whether the base has 20 scarabs or 1 it doesn't change the rules for it.

Does it seem at all odd that you are using the argument of modeling dynamically to say one of your guys can be dead? that seems like opposite ends of the spectrum.

You should use them they are full of win.

ryanjh wrote:Does it seem at all odd that you are using the argument of modeling dynamically to say one of your guys can be dead? that seems like opposite ends of the spectrum.

I am using (temporarily) the 6 "dead" Vostroyan Ltd edition models as "fillers" (1 of each model in 6 different squads to make 10 man squads)...I am not modeling a mini to look dead and calling it alive if that is what you are trying to state.....The main point of this was, would you allow someone to use the model in a game? Many folks use "counts as" and don't even put as much attention or effort into those "count as" models....I do not use it for line of sight, I remove it first from casualties, I point it out at start of game, and gain NO advantage at all.....It is funny to see how anal & literal some people truely are, when this is just a game....

I would allow it. Many people need to use proxies for one reason or another. For example, I am currently proxying 6 Broadsides with 6 Crisis Suits as I simply do not have a few hundred dollars to spend right now.

templeorks wrote:You should use them they are full of win.

I'd love to use that avatar of yours!

spartanlegion wrote:

templeorks wrote:You should use them they are full of win.

I'd love to use that avatar of yours!

Really thats great.

Use the models. People who post on the internet temporarily choose to remove sanity in favor of ridiculous pet arguments. Myself included.

Honestly, I like seeing an opponent who already knows that his army is going to die just becuase I show up!

OP needs to change his argument. It shouldn't be "I'm using these models as stand-ins because I'm too poor to buy more", it should be "These are awesome, limited edition, official Vostroyan models, and I'm using them in my army as Vostroyans. They are WYSIWYG, and there is no reason to refuse them. If I point them out pre-game, I will not ask permission, because they are awesome and valid models."

Now going by the second argument instead of the first, do we have any opposition? It's not laziness, or being cheap, it's just using cool models. Like using a Forgeworld Avatar instead of the current one, even though it's bigger and can see over barricades and the like easier.

Pika_power wrote:OP needs to change his argument. It shouldn't be "I'm using these models as stand-ins because I'm too poor to buy more", .

That was never the arguement, and I am starting to get that people would even go there with that ..... I am definately not poor, but that is besides the point, and should not even enter into the issue at hand.....

I'd be fine if you used them!

spartanlegion wrote:

Pika_power wrote:OP needs to change his argument. It shouldn't be "I'm using these models as stand-ins because I'm too poor to buy more", .

That was never the arguement, and I am starting to get that people would even go there with that ..... I am definately not poor, but that is besides the point, and should not even enter into the issue at hand.....

Ah. In that case, please substitute "OP needs to change his argument. It shouldn't be..." to "People need to stop misinterpreting OP's argument, it's not...".

Better?

I think the most generic question for this thread would have/should have been -

"Do you allow people to use "count as" models in order for them to get their army points to match yours in order to play a friendly game?"

& a follow up question -

"If so, how long before you refuse to play the same gamer if he repeatedly uses "count as" models or "fillers" in games?"