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I have 6 painted & based dead vostroyans in my ranks. Some opponents say I can not use them since they are "dead." What is your opinion?

FYI -
These are the limted editon dead vostroyans. on normal base, painted, and flocked. I have 1 in each of 6 ten man squads...there are several prone positioned models in many other lines, ripper swarms, scarabs, and several very low stanced FW models too...The dead vostroyans are always first to be removed as casualties....never used for line of sight......these 6 models are fillers to make 10 in six of my squds.........no gaming advantage was intended either, and I point these minis out before a game....

i would prefer that you didn't because then you have 6 vostroyans that can easily hidden behind any terrain, its kind of a modeling for advantage thing. I would let you, but i wouldn't be too psyched about it

Pics? It really depends how cool they look. If they're normal Voystroyan models, but tipped over and with a combat knife glued to their chest with blood red painted around, I'd rather not. If it's awesome looking, I'd be fine with it, and demand you take them off last.

But with infantry type models if any part of them is hidden by terrain they get a cover save, so I don't necessarily see how the model height would matter too much.

I suppose in some rare situations it would mean you couldn't shoot at them instead of them just getting the cover save, but that's probably going to be few and far between.

Eh, I could see it both ways I guess, just don't see it being a real problem. *Shrug*

No, only since the Vostroyan box sets (best IG range ever!!) come with enough. You're just trying the same things that people with one scarab per base declare them as swarms, as with rippers.

One ripper/scarab is the same height as 3 or 4, or 5 even.
As far as the dead models (I assume laying on the ground) I would be iclined to say that it is modeling for an advantage as you can hide them completely behind quite a bit of terrain, unless your also tracing los from their eyes at ground level much like the prone unsuported position Tau Pathfinders w/ rail rifles.

I voted yes, but I'd probably ask that, whenever possible, the the seated/prone models be removed as casualties first, even if you needed to swap models around to maintain coherency/cover. That way your last few members of the squad aren't nigh impossible to target.

There need to be (at least) two more options added to the poll:
c) They're fine as long as you're willing to treat them as if they were the same height and shape as the non-prone models.
d) They're fine, as long as you're actually drawing line of sight (and getting line of sight drawn to) that model on the ground.
in addition to the other suggestion of:
e) That's okay, as long as those models are just being used as filler and get removed first.

I'd probably be fine with them being used as filler models, although I may feel entitled to make jokes about the rest of the army getting ready to assume a similar position.

These are the limted editon dead vostroyans. on normal base, painted, and flocked. I have 1 in each of 6 ten man squads...there are several prone positioned models in many other lines, and several very low stanced FW models...The dead vostroyans are always first to be removed as casualties....without these 6 mixed in I lose an entire squad.....no gaming advantage was intended either, and I point these minis out before a game....

I would declare 'rule of cool.'

Cool models are welcomed by all usually.

People being cheap and basically using garbage and passing it off as 'filler' are met with resistance.

I would have to see the models, but like the 1 ripper per base, that is an example of 'inappropriate filler' which is almost as bad as playing with checkers or tiddily winks.

I guess would people mind these being used as regular models?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1690064&rootCatGameStyle=

I think you would be better off using those models as objective counters or something. If 6 models is going to break your bank to complete your army, I think there are larger issues.

I think they sound cool.

I may have to make some Orks 'epically failing' their armor saves.

You can use them against me!

I have even seen a guy use 6 painted & grass flocked bases (no minis) and claim they were tau stealth in invisible stealth mode! That I didn't like....

As long as you don't make the prone models the ones poking around corners and keep them "internal" to the unit, I'm OK with it. If they are internal to the unit, then it is unlikely that the prone model ends up as the one deciding on LOS.

Homer

I think the big thing is clearing with your opponents before hand. It is usually fine if you say that he is to be treated as if he was standing up and as you said he is the first to go. I think the guys you are playing with are just being a TFG.

I used to have Assault Marines standing on rocks which obviously meant they could be seen over some vehicles. I cleared before hand that they should be treated as though they are not on the rocks. I had a couple that were not. Every opponent was fine.

If they're split up 1 to a squad and they're the first to go, I wouldn't mind at all. Just make sure they aren't the ones drawing LOS or getting cover saves for the squad..
If you're going to make a stretch by using them, just don't be a jerk about it. Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem

Fine with me.

You determine LOS of a shooting unit model by model (so they'd probably not get los to be able to shoot that often).
If the standing ones are in cover, then so are the prone ones.
I don't see an issue.

I have used as few as two scarabs on a base as a swarm (the model is a 'base' NOT a 'base of x pieces', so 1 or a bajillion makes no difference). It also doesn't matter if the scarabs are on their little poop-streams or glued directly to the base.)

Agree with chromedog. You are not 'modelling for advantage' because you are using unconverted citadel miniatures. You're probably best off playing them exactly as the are (not 'counts as a standing trooper') to keep things simple. You can be diplomatic if players don't like it but they can't ask you to stop for any RAW reason.

People wouldn't say that Old one eye has reduced visibility because he is missing an eye- some models are just interesting like that.

+1 chromedog. These are fully legal Citadel models. Don't like it? Suck it up! TLOS means they don't have any real inherent advantages. (Even a model can't see them, they probably can't see it either.)

It says in the rulebook that every Citadel model has rules. GW release collector models that have rules... Dead models are objective counters and released and allowed to be used as such. Using them as something else requires opponent's consent and probably falls into the 'rule of cool'. So the fact they are citadel models doesn't give you blanket authority to force them on opponents however you feel like.

And 2 models per swarm is pushing it and claiming 'GW doesn't say' is TFG justification. GW swarms have always been 5 models and when sold as metal blisters and via the official rulebook you have to use citadel models as they come which for those blisters would require all 5 rippers or whatever to be on the base.

Plastics usually come with enough for 1 base per plastic sprue and tell you that in the instructions so converting them to be 'less' is breaking the rules and would require opponent's consent as technically conversions are illegal.

So if you are going to be TFG by saying GW doesn't state what makes a swarm, i can be TFG by saying that the boxes and blisters say what an unconverted legal citadel model is.

I think most reasonable people will accept a middle ground which is 1 plastic doo-dad per wound in the swarm which is usually '3' models. Anything else is being a cheapskate and filler... which means you might as well use coke cans and tiddlywinks.

nkelsch wrote:It says in the rulebook that every Citadel model has rules. GW release collector models that have rules... Dead models are objective counters and released and allowed to be used as such. Using them as something else requires opponent's consent and probably falls into the 'rule of cool'. So the fact they are citadel models doesn't give you blanket authority to force them on opponents however you feel like.

And 2 models per swarm is pushing it and claiming 'GW doesn't say' is TFG justification. GW swarms have always been 5 models and when sold as metal blisters and via the official rulebook you have to use citadel models as they come which for those blisters would require all 5 rippers or whatever to be on the base.

Plastics usually come with enough for 1 base per plastic sprue and tell you that in the instructions so converting them to be 'less' is breaking the rules and would require opponent's consent as technically conversions are illegal.

So if you are going to be TFG by saying GW doesn't state what makes a swarm, i can be TFG by saying that the boxes and blisters say what an unconverted legal citadel model is.

I think most reasonable people will accept a middle ground which is 1 plastic doo-dad per wound in the swarm which is usually '3' models. Anything else is being a cheapskate and filler... which means you might as well use coke cans and tiddlywinks.

Metal scarabs from GW come 2 to a base, and I don't remeber getting any instructions about the basing of rippers with my battleforce nor did they come in any quantity other than one per 'gaunt or 'stealer sprue.

zeshin wrote:Metal scarabs from GW come 2 to a base, and I don't remeber getting any instructions about the basing of rippers with my battleforce nor did they come in any quantity other than one per 'gaunt or 'stealer sprue.

Metal Scarabs were not Swarms when they were a 3rd edition Chapter Approved codex. They were individual models.

The GW plastic boxed sets give you 1 40mm base and enough rippers for 1 base per plastic boxed set. The instructions show an image of it.

The metal rippers came 5 to a blister.
The metal Snots came 5 to a blister.
The metal Rats came 5 to a blister.
The metal Nurglings came 5 to a blister.

No matter how you slice it, 1-2 per base and saying 'GW doesn't say I can't is being TFG and making crap filler models.

Maybe I won't attach legs to my orks because GW doesn't say I have to and then I can combine the legs with the shootas on a base and I can make 10 sluggas and 10 shootas out of one set of 10 bodies. Doesn't say the models need to be complete right? GW doesn't say I can't! It is an official GW model and has the WYSIWYG weapons.

Anything less than 1 'doo-dad' per wound on a swarm is being TFG and a cheapskate and is basically the same as people who field empty bases. It fails 'rule of cool'.

Anyone who would throw a hissy cow because I have the metal scarabs from the gw website (2 to a base) is a tfg.

But as to the op, these are models specifically designed to represent casualties for objectives or just fir flavor but if you make them look cool and play as they are (prone and with poor Los) I don't see a problem.

nkelsch wrote:Anything less than 1 'doo-dad' per wound on a swarm is being TFG and a cheapskate and is basically the same as people who field empty bases. It fails 'rule of cool'.

12 models/base fits the fluff better so does having 5 models break your rules?

Not attaching legs to your orks is altering the model for advantage. Fewer rats in a swarm has no impact on the game whatsoever. I think not letting the guy play his models without any actual rules to back you up is being TFG.

Soup and a roll wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Anything less than 1 'doo-dad' per wound on a swarm is being TFG and a cheapskate and is basically the same as people who field empty bases. It fails 'rule of cool'.

12 models/base fits the fluff better so does having 5 models break your rules?

Not attaching legs to your orks is altering the model for advantage. Fewer rats in a swarm has no impact on the game whatsoever. I think not letting the guy play his models without any actual rules to back you up is being TFG.

Technically using empty bases with rocks on them 'has no effect on the game at all'. This is a hobby and it requires models to be used for the game to take place. If you can't handle the hobby aspect you can play vassal online or use checkers and soda cans with your friends and play the meta game. The reason why you have 'swarms' is to represent creatures that are normally so weak they do not justify their own model and wound, but together they become strong enough to.

*If a Swarm has 1 model on the base, then you are saying that that one model is basically a 3 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.
*If a Swarm has 2 models on the base, then you are saying those models are stronger than a much larger infantry man and is more than a 1 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.

4+ models per swarm fits not only how they sell the swarms, how they designed them to be built but fits the rules. The models are weaker than a single model so combined they make a 3 wound base. Swarms look 'off' with less than 3 models per base and I know people are cheapskates in the age of plastics and do whatever they can to avoid fielding a fully WYSIWYG and correctly modeled army to save a few bucks. If you are going to put 1 or 2 models per swarm base for no other reason but to save money then that is a lame reason.

Again, "rule of cool" applies. I can see how 'old' scarabs who are larger and fill out a 40mm base better than the plastic ones could 'look good' and pass rule of cool. It doesn't mean that it will pass the same for all swarms as putting two plastic rippers on a base and calling it a swarm fails the 'rule of cool'.

Just don't be so quick to try to force model on opponents as minor effort can make your models universally accepted by all people by being reasonable about them and making them look good opposed to taking the approach "GW doesn't define swarms so you must accept my single GW ripper per base as it is official and you can't complain." People sure get angry when they have to ask opponents permission for stuff instead of demanding that they get their way. If you ask someone 'can I use this collectors model' most people will say yes. When you yell at someone and angrily force a model upon someone with 'It is Citadel model, you have no right to dislike what I am doing!' people will like it less and often TOs will not accept it at all.

If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances. If it isn't about money and is about excellent conversions then 'rule of cool' applies and most people will accept your models with no issues as long as it looks like you are being reasonable and not modeling for advantage. Trying to field practically empty bases as swarms is modeling for advantage and using incomplete models.

nkelsch wrote:

*If a Swarm has 1 model on the base, then you are saying that that one model is basically a 3 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.
*If a Swarm has 2 models on the base, then you are saying those models are stronger than a much larger infantry man and is more than a 1 wound model. That is not supported by the model or the rules.

Rules quote to support this or you're just being pushing your own opinion as word of god.

I applaud your willingness to try something different but...

For gaming it is usually a best practice to WYSIWYG your models, if it looks like something, that is what it should be.
Letter of the law, you have a model representing the army you are playing so no-one could stop you rules-wise.
If I replace my IG army with the occasional zombie parts I would not be able to field my army because it is dead?

I figure it shows a lack of confidence to already model your troops dead but hey, this is fun right?

I just find it hard to call a single ripper on a base a "swarm".

A swarm is a large number. "1". . . not so much.

/shrug

As for the OP -- if it is WYSIWYG, go for it.

Using a model as it was modeled is hardly modeling for advantage, is it?

Wait a second. How did we get onto swarms? One swarm per base is laziness, and unrelated to the current topic. Or if we're discussing using some GW models for other things, enjoy seeing my Epic 40k army used in normal 40k.

Modelling for advantage can be done. We don't need to go over it again.

This is different. He's asking if you'd be okay with a flavourful touch to his army. It's not laziness, it's a personal choice to model in a certain way.

If you can use termagaunts, or space marines, or kroot as "counts as" guardsmen, then why can't you use a prone guardsman as a "counts as" guardsman?

Furthermore, heavy weapons teams are crouching, and one of the catachan snipers is even lying down! Why can't they be used?

If TLOS is the problem, well, that's just one of the vagaries of TLOS. GW knew that people could start making couchafexes again (or, in this case, using prone models), and went ahead with it anyways. If you had an entire army converted to look prone, then the entire army would measure LOS from the prone model. If you don't like it, then write a letter to GW asking them to reinstitute sized terrain.

nkelsch wrote:I know people are cheapskates in the age of plastics and do whatever they can to avoid fielding a fully WYSIWYG and correctly modeled army to save a few bucks. If you are going to put 1 or 2 models per swarm base for no other reason but to save money then that is a lame reason.
...

Just don't be so quick to try to force model on opponents

...

People sure get angry when they have to ask opponents permission for stuff instead of demanding that they get their way.

...

When you yell at someone and angrily force a model upon someone with 'It is Citadel model, you have no right to dislike what I am doing!' people will like it less and often TOs will not accept it at all.

If buying a few extra things to fill out your swarms or buying 6 more models to complete an I.guard army breaks your bank, you are in the wrong hobby and should re-consider your personal finances.

All the above is you throwing your opinions about (quite rudely). I agree that it is poor form to play models which don't look that part just as, from personal experience, it is harmful to my enjoyment of the game if an opponent plays with un- or poorly painted models. That said, I have absolutely no right to tell them that they shouldn't use these models (yelling or otherwise) and if I did I would be in the wrong.

If you are stopping an opponent using his models without solid rules to back you, you are in the wrong. spartanlegion has as much right to field his dead models (or any other citadel models) as chromedog has to pick how many scarabs go on his bases.