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Locclo wrote:
It has nothing to do with being accepted as a good build - within the confines of the system (which you have to go with) it isn't a good build.

And who decides which builds are Good and which are not?

I never said tanking with a rogue was Optimal, just that it can be done.
End Game content, as far as I know, is almost ALL Raids. (The Lord of the Rings ends more as a solo than a Raid.)
Battlegrounds are also places where less than optimal builds are trashed and ignored.
Most Dailies are, in essence, Raids.

And I understand that each class has its strengths and weaknesses. But Playing a character that is not an Optimised build for their class is more challenging, to me, than playing some carbon copy of some-one else's Optimised character build of the same class. Look at any 2 characters of the same class in a raid group. Chances are the only difference is the name. If that is how the game is supposed to be played, then Blizzard should just make those builds standard and take out the character developement tool.

"Tanking" with a Rogue has been nerfed all to hell, specifically because they didn't want it.

Which brings up my biggest beef with Blizzard.

They have no clue what the feth to do with Rogues.

They are changing alot in cata. so once you get one thing down it is gone. Example: Instead of getting talent points every lvl it is every other. And the fact that alot of stuf in terms of stats will change aswell.

You should all go play runescape "snigger"

helgrenze wrote:

Locclo wrote:
It has nothing to do with being accepted as a good build - within the confines of the system (which you have to go with) it isn't a good build.

And who decides which builds are Good and which are not?

I never said tanking with a rogue was Optimal, just that it can be done.
End Game content, as far as I know, is almost ALL Raids. (The Lord of the Rings ends more as a solo than a Raid.)
Battlegrounds are also places where less than optimal builds are trashed and ignored.
Most Dailies are, in essence, Raids.

And I understand that each class has its strengths and weaknesses. But Playing a character that is not an Optimised build for their class is more challenging, to me, than playing some carbon copy of some-one else's Optimised character build of the same class. Look at any 2 characters of the same class in a raid group. Chances are the only difference is the name. If that is how the game is supposed to be played, then Blizzard should just make those builds standard and take out the character developement tool.

Nobody gives two gaks if its more challenging for you. If you're in a guild, they want you to perform to the best of your abilities depending on your gear and class. If you're not, you're dead weight when they could get someone else to replace you just like that.

It doesn't matter if a class CAN tank, a mage can tank, but he'll die a hell of a lot quicker than an actual tank class. Your point is ludicrous. As a Shaman, I can be ranged Magic DPS, a healer, or melee DPS. That's flexibility.

If I was a restoration shaman, I can either spec in healing wave, or lesser healing wave. For most of my raiding time, I went lesser healing wave.

If I was an enhancement shaman, I could either have went 2-hander or Dual-Wield.

As an Elemental Shaman.....well, I believe there is only one way to go elemental spec.

Karon wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

Locclo wrote:
It has nothing to do with being accepted as a good build - within the confines of the system (which you have to go with) it isn't a good build.

And who decides which builds are Good and which are not?

Nobody gives two gaks if its more challenging for you. If you're in a guild, they want you to perform to the best of your abilities depending on your gear and class. If you're not, you're dead weight when they could get someone else to replace you just like that.

It doesn't matter if a class CAN tank, a mage can tank, but he'll die a hell of a lot quicker than an actual tank class. Your point is ludicrous. As a Shaman, I can be ranged Magic DPS, a healer, or melee DPS. That's flexibility.

If I was a restoration shaman, I can either spec in healing wave, or lesser healing wave. For most of my raiding time, I went lesser healing wave.

If I was an enhancement shaman, I could either have went 2-hander or Dual-Wield.

As an Elemental Shaman.....well, I believe there is only one way to go elemental spec.

Again proving the point about elitism within the community.
I honestly don't CARE about what build YOU think is optimal. If I am online playing MY character, MY WAY, your build strat means nothing to me.... because I am paying for MY account, not you. And that is my point, why should my character, on my account, paid for with my money, have to be a clone of your build?
If I wanted to play a cookie cutter character I would be playing Team Fortress2.

Whatever, I'd say the reason you complain about how endgame is dominated by raiding is because you can never get into a raid, because you play your class wrong, such as a rogue as a protection warrior.

L2P, I'm out of this thread, its like arguing with Alairos.

helgrenze, noone forces you to play an optimal build. If you want to join a raiding guild, you will need to conform to their expectations as it is their guild that they formed using their time on their accounts that they payed for.

A melee mage cannot pull a decent amount of DPS. Cloth gear does not carry the correct stats for it and mages do not have many/any abilities that complement that playstyle. How is it elitism if a guild would prefer someonce who could far better suit the needs of the guild?

helgrenze wrote:And who decides which builds are Good and which are not?

The system does. If arcane build X brings in more DPS than any other mage build than it is undeniably the best build for doing damage (given a perfect environment of course, circumstances may make another build superior, but the point that builds can be seen to be more effective for the purpose of doing damage or healing or tanking still stands).

@helgrenze: Yes your rogue can tank but my prot warrior can do it better. Yes my prot warrior can do damage but your rogue can probably do 5-10x more. It's the way the game is designed, not elitism as you keep trying to say. Yes if your good enough it's possible for things to work when they shoudln't have but there is still a limit to that. Find a group that love doing silly things (I play a cow that flys a helicopter so I know silly) and just enjoy it. The games mechanics will stop you from surviving end game raids though, not the other players.

you can play your character and do your build however you want, just don't expect to live in battlegrounds, or ever get into a raid.

If you don't care about those things, then you'd be fine. I mean, some people might bitch at you in the random dungeon finder if you do 500dps, but hey, its not like they can kick... nevermind, they can actually kick you out of a dungeon now.

So basically, you'd be playing WoW solo, which alot of people do. Personally, I can't stand playing MMOs by myself, but that's just me.

Its not really elitism. Each class has a role it can perform, sometimes several. If you choose a class, but don't want to do that role, you're not really playing the class correctly. A deathknight can spam death coils, but he isn't really a ranged mage type caster dps. A ret paladin can hit things really hard, but can't really heal much at all. Nowadays, it is quite cookie-cutter, sorry. I mean, at least it was when i was playing.

It may be your $15 but that is balanced against your parties $75. As pointed out there is nothing forcing anyone into an optimal build but you also have to deal with the consequences of doing so. You can't be both sub-par and sought after. Of course if you are having fun it doesn't really matter now does it?

Thing is, everyone has an idea of how they want to play, what character they want to be. But then people within the game, other players who have some app that allows them to see your build, comment on how you did it wrong and need to redo it "right", meaning their way.

Think of your WH/40k army... is it your creation or some netizens "Ideal" list?

You can actually inspect people and see their talent builds now(or at least could when I quit).

And honestly, most people aren't doing it to be dicks. They're basing it off the assumption that you don't really know what you're doing and are trying to be helpful. They see your gear, or see the damage you're putting out and try to steer you towards bettering yourself.


To give an example:
I lost count how many times people tried to tell me that my Hunter's PvP build was "awful", even though it was perfectly synergized with my Feral Druid partner, or my Rogue's HfB build that worked amazingly alongside that same partner.

Once they then faced us in an Arena or battlegrounds, it immediately went from "God, your talents are awful considering your gear" to "Holy hell, that's ridiculously overpowered."

I have similar experiences in CoH.... People always telling me my tanker is done "wrong".. until they watch me stand there and tarpit a doorway or huge mob.

The point I was making is the "experts" want you to have the build they say is best.. not the one you found works best for your style/group.

Well see, that's the thing.

The build that the "experts" say is best...usually is the one that will work best for your style/group.

My point was that there's a difference between someone who's done testing with various builds and has built their character to work completely with a partner who has a complimentary build...and someone who just doesn't want to take any advice.

There certainly are crazy little things you can exploit. I play a warrior myself, and with a mix of arms and protection talents you can swing with your Revenge attack once a second in Defensive Stance, as long as you're hitting with blocks.

That said, I have a raid tanking build that is quite standard, and an Arms raid pvp build that does an exceptional amount of single-target dps and threat and is nothing out of the ordinary. People - even one of the senior warriors in my raiding guild - tell me off for even trying to take an Arms warrior into a raid because Fury warriors get more reliable area-of-effect dps. I can gladly tell those people that my mere inclusion in the group guarantees +6% damage against my target and +30% to all bleed damage. In the endgame, big numbers are all that matters but there are a few ways to influence these in such small ways that they can be hard to appreciate. Having a Fury warrior nearby ups my criticals by 5% too, so I prefer having one alongside me.

I don't spend much time screwing around, so it's hard to say, but you can just put up with it I s'pose. I'd like to get more into the RP aspects of so-called RPGs, but there just aren't enough interested people, so it's a desired aspect of games in general I can't expect to be fulfilled. Playing UT3 online is about the same.

FIRSTLY

Seriously folks, I didnt start this thread to start a bitch fest. If I wanted that Id spend the day with my mother in law. Seriously grow up and shut up. I dont care if your feelings have been hurt from playing WoW, Or you want to insult the guy that cant play a class right. I just wanted to have a nice discussion about WoW



Basically, Im going through with getting the game upto Burning Crusades at first. I figured, it will take me some time to get to 70, so going past 70 can wait until later for the wrath of the lich king and cataclysm once that comes out. Im fairly certain Im going to build a furry warrior as my main. I was starting to dip into that a bit with the free trial and was really digging it. The first time I played WoW (like 2 years ago? JUST before Litch King came out) I played a hardcore tank warrior and had alot of fun with that. So itll be similar, but Ill be like an Angry Marine but without power armor lol. The thought of swinging around 2, 2 handed weapons (titans grip) and smashing things just makes me excited.

What race (Horde gentlemen, its the only way to go) is best for that role? I was really impressed with the Tauren, because the size is friggin HUGE, but Ive heard Orcs are the best?

Also my brother is going to be getting WoW as well, so I will at least have my right hand man playing with me. Hes thinking a mage or something. So I thought we would make a good team, a mage and a semi tank/super killer. Sure the healing wont be there, but Im hoping we will just strait kill things before it comes to that.

Starts up with...

KingCracker wrote:Seriously folks, I didnt start this thread to start a bitch fest. If I wanted that Id spend the day with my mother in law.

then follows that up with...

KingCracker wrote:Seriously grow up and shut up.

Stay classy King.

Class is my middle name

And thanks for adding to my thread.

Although I play hunter fury warriar is the best for pve dps. Besides duel weilding 2 handed weapons is awesome.

Taurens are best for Druid or Hunter class, with the bonus to Herbalism and access to guns.
Undead do well in rogue and warrior due to the resist fear, sleep and charm and canabalism. They also get better swim times which can help with some of the Barrens quest sets.
Orcs are also good with warrior with the enrage and resist stuns, and hunter with added pet damage.
Trolls are probably the worst for warrior class though.

Yea I honestly might just go with Orcs for the furry warrior. I love Orcs anyways (a duh ) and their racials are pretty good. The only advantage I really see with a Tauren is a smidge more hitpoints (or so Ive heard) and their stomp. But I almost never found the stomp to be useful. Maybe if I was lucky enough to use it to find a stealthed rogue in a PVP, but I doubt it.

Anywho I guess Im going to go buy it today. So hurray for me!

Wooches. Since your going horde if you wan't a server to goof off on your welcome on Gilneas. I can use my 80 to help you with instances and my alts to run about with ya sometimes. Orc is great for fury warrior but I love the extra 5% hp taurens get with tanking.

Not tempted by either of the new races King?

Oh and on a side note for those who may not have been following all the Cata info.
If there is anywhere you like in the old world take those shots soon, as when Cata hits the world changes for everyone, not just those who buy Cata.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Not tempted by either of the new races King?

Oh and on a side note for those who may not have been following all the Cata info.
If there is anywhere you like in the old world take those shots soon, as when Cata hits the world changes for everyone, not just those who buy Cata.

The only reason im buying cata is so i can use my flying mount in the old world to go to that air strip above ironforge....

Im pretty excited to see how the world will look post cata. And no not really interested by the blood elves or the drenai, specially the latter. Once I buy the new expansion when it comes out Im thinking of doing a Goblin for sure.


Just installed it (took for ever) but the bitch part is, I was told I didnt need to buy a subscription card to play the first month. Boy was that person wrong. I get 30days free yes, but without a card I cant play it

And the wife has the credit card, and NATURALLY my phone isnt excepted by that phone and pay thing. So basically Im sitting here with an icon on my desktop laughing at me. HURRAY!

I went back to WOW a little while ago, it was fun seeing the new stuff but after that it was just the same thing all over. Level up all by yourself, get some new toys, see some cool looking monsters. Then you're maxed and need to raid to advance more, so you join a raid guild and get ignored unless someone "important" in the guild needs something from you, or you can join a friendly guild and feel like you're being ignored because there's never more than 3 members on at a time.

The game started out great when it was new, now you just get rewarded for having no life and playing 6 hours a day. I'd rather have no life and paint models instead

Had a good laugh yesterday...
My roommate is a huge WoW fan. He belongs to one of the bigger raid guilds. So, they get a raid together, everyone is on Vox, and spend the next 5 hours on this raid. What it actually was... 4 hours, 50 minutes of the raid leader telling everyone how to play and what to do, and 10 minutes of actual game play.

I hate WOW because you get no real control in battles. You just watch an animation of people beating each other up with sword-like objects.

Although when the Warhammer 40k mmorpg comes out, I will play that because you can actually aim with your guns. (As it appears in the trailer.)

Obviously you missed the point of this thread, I didnt start it to attract haters. Congrats, you hate WoW, cool story bro. I started this thread so I can learn things, and generally give my self the push to get into playing for real (which I have been, and damn Im not regretting it)


So if you dont have anything useful to add to the post, then please refrain from posting in it