Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If GW says that an ICM with the Saga of the Hunter can join an outflanking unit he can do so, basta.
Codex>Rulebook and FAQs are in the end a part of the Codex itself.

Wrong, specifc > general.

Stating "an iC gains Outflank" does not override the specific USR rules that state the Scouts lose Scouts and Infiltrate.

Nos, the FAQ, which we use in YMDC, says that a WGBL can outflank with a squad if it has SotH. That is specific enough to override the standard IC and Infiltrator interaction. The Wolf Scouts will not be able to infiltrate, but they will be able to outflank. This is indisputable.

The question is if the Wolf Scouts still get to use Behind Enemy Lines, and that's not nearly as settled. I'd say no.

And the point i was trying to make is that a FAQ is not sufficient, as it requires a change in the rules - which is what an errata is for.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Nos, the FAQ, which we use in YMDC, says that a WGBL can outflank with a squad if it has SotH. That is specific enough to override the standard IC and Infiltrator interaction. The Wolf Scouts will not be able to infiltrate, but they will be able to outflank. This is indisputable.

The question is if the Wolf Scouts still get to use Behind Enemy Lines, and that's not nearly as settled. I'd say no.

They would the IC wouldn't: since you can't split the unit up after you've decared they're outflanking together you'd have to use the normal rules. This way you break no rules.

and nodferatu when did you become gwar? FAQ are what we've got to play with: don't want to use them? Thats fine but most people will be using them whether they make sense or not.

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

Oops. Didn't realize this was in the FAQ.

I'll agree, it's not clear if the unit can OBEL, but if you're going with the INAT revision to Snikrot's Ambush, I would allow it.

Tri - Im makling it clear why some people would have a problem with the FAQ, as it answered a question witrh a houserule, rather than doing what was the better option of actually changing the rules to make it work.

I know the effect they were trying to get with Hunter, however given the number of errata they had in SW one more wouldnt hurt...

Tri, the IC would be able to OBEL because the OBEL rule specifies when the Wolf Scout outflanks, they may OBEL. When the IC joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for a purposes except close combat.

So when a Wolf Scout unit (including an attached IC) chooses to outflank, they may OBEL.

Nos, our difference of opinion is based on the reading of the BRB. I already think that the BRB was suffiecient to allow an IC with Saga of the Hunter to outflank/OBEL with Wolf Scouts as written. The FAQ only further verified my opinion.

You think that the BRB did not allow it, thus a FAQ is insufficient and errata is required.

However, the writers/developers seems to agree with my opinion that BRB and codex were sufficient because they ONLY issued a FAQ and did not deem that an errata was necessary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tri - Im makling it clear why some people would have a problem with the FAQ, as it answered a question witrh a houserule, rather than doing what was the better option of actually changing the rules to make it work.

I know the effect they were trying to get with Hunter, however given the number of errata they had in SW one more wouldnt hurt...

I don't think any one wouldn't like it if GW managed to errata every mistake but they've chosen to FAQ ... so most people have to live with it. While I understand that not every one will play with them I feel that it is not worth mentioning every time when there isn't a clear answer. Since the IC doesn't have infiltrate the scouts loose it and no one can out flank. This is clearly not ment to happen unless you feel he should be outflanking on his own.

Brother Ramses wrote:Tri, the IC would be able to OBEL because the OBEL rule specifies when the Wolf Scout outflanks, they may OBEL. When the IC joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for a purposes except close combat.

So when a Wolf Scout unit (including an attached IC) chooses to outflank, they may OBEL.

Nos, our difference of opinion is based on the reading of the BRB. I already think that the BRB was suffiecient to allow an IC with Saga of the Hunter to outflank/OBEL with Wolf Scouts as written. The FAQ only further verified my opinion.

You think that the BRB did not allow it, thus a FAQ is insufficient and errata is required.

However, the writers/developers seems to agree with my opinion that BRB and codex were sufficient because they ONLY issued a FAQ and did not deem that an errata was necessary.

Note behind enemy lines works on Wolf scouts units ... An IC with SotH is not a wolf scout. For more information please see page 48 Special rules: "... the units special rules are not conferred upon the character ...".

Unit special rules are not conferred onto independent characters. ICs without Infiltrate or Scout USR joining a unit with infiltrate or scouts, causes that unit to lose those special rules (BRB pg. 74). Saga of the Hunter does not give an IC infiltrate, it allows them to Outflank and use the Stealth USR (SW Codex pg. 64). IC special rules are not conferred onto the unit they join (BRB pg. 48)

So a WG Battle Leader with Saga of the Hunter will cause a Wolf Scout unit to lose Infiltrate and Scout USRs, thus not allowing the Wolf Scouts to outflank or use OBEL.

To summarize, it does not work.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Nos, the FAQ, which we use in YMDC.

We may use it in YMTC, but that doesn't stop it from being incorrect.

In short, an IC with the Saga cannot, RaW, join a unit of scouts and then outflank. IF you use the GW FAQs as Law, then they can. IF you are like me and enjoy playing the game by the actual rules, he cannot. YMMV of course etc etc *Boilerplate Disclaimer to not get banned again*

A WGBL can because he becomes a member of the unit and gets their special rules.

It can't be incorrect. If you use the FAQ as rules, they are rules. It'd be like saying the codex is incorrect.

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

Even by the FAQ he still cannot do it. Since going by the rules on pg. 74 of the BRB, the scouts lose the abilities to Infiltrate and Scout when the IC joins them. If the scouts lose the abilities to infiltrate and scout, then they cannot outflank; and hence the IC cannot outflank with them.

BR - not a difference of opinion, you simply a) made up when Ouutflank is conferred (it is conferred AT deployment, not before, therefore you are wrong) and b) you ignore that the rules conferring Outflank are lost *before* you can declare the unit is outflanking together, as you must declare that the unit is joined together witht he IC before you can state the unit whole is performing X action.

the FAQ is a houserule, therefore states the normal rules dont allow this. Please reread the Shrine of Knowledge disclaimer on FAQ vs errata - you are wrong even in your final statement, as they do NOT believe it is part of the rules and so they made it a houserule.

Gwar! wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:A WGBL can because he becomes a member of the unit and gets their special rules.

I think you mean a WGPL.

Yes, I do mean a WGPL!

I blame the typo on the Rum!

Gwar! wrote:IF you use the GW FAQs as Law, then they can. IF you are like me and enjoy playing the game by the actual rules, he cannot. YMMV of course etc etc *Boilerplate Disclaimer to not get banned again*

Didn't several posters just say that they were treating the FAQ as Rules? This provides nothing to the debate.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:IF you use the GW FAQs as Law, then they can. IF you are like me and enjoy playing the game by the actual rules, he cannot. YMMV of course etc etc *Boilerplate Disclaimer to not get banned again*

Didn't several posters just say that they were treating the FAQ as Rules? This provides nothing to the debate.

Nor does your post. What's your point?

And "Several Posters" does not equal everyone, so my post is meaningful for those other people.

Can we just all take it as read that the majority of users are going to follow the GW FAQ, and base the argument around that position?

It does not help move the debate forwards to keep saying "if you don't count the FAQs as official" when most people do.

The GW documents generally get rolled into the INAT doc, which is the other widely used FAQ.

Kilkrazy wrote:Can we just all take it as read that the majority of users are going to follow the GW FAQ, and base the argument around that position?

It does not help move the debate forwards to keep saying "if you don't count the FAQs as official" when most people do.

The GW documents generally get rolled into the INAT doc, which is the other widely used FAQ.

Yes, but as I pointed out, "most people" is not the same as "all people", myself being one of the ones who tend to ignore the FAQ when it ignores RaW.

I post for the benefit of ALL Dakkaites, not just the ones who follow the FAQs as though they are the Word of The Empra. That's why I make it very clear that my answers are following RaW as opposed to RaW ignoring FAQs.

But whatever, last 2 times I criticised GW I got 2 day bans, so I'll drop it.

Brother Ramses wrote:Tri, the IC would be able to OBEL because the OBEL rule specifies when the Wolf Scout outflanks, they may OBEL. When the IC joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for a purposes except close combat.

So when a Wolf Scout unit (including an attached IC) chooses to outflank, they may OBEL.

Nos, our difference of opinion is based on the reading of the BRB. I already think that the BRB was suffiecient to allow an IC with Saga of the Hunter to outflank/OBEL with Wolf Scouts as written. The FAQ only further verified my opinion.

You think that the BRB did not allow it, thus a FAQ is insufficient and errata is required.

However, the writers/developers seems to agree with my opinion that BRB and codex were sufficient because they ONLY issued a FAQ and did not deem that an errata was necessary.

Show me where it says that Saga of the Hunter allows Behind Enemy Lines. It allows him to Outflank, that's it.
And as has been pointed out several times already, joining a Hunter IC to the Scouts kills off their ability to Outflank anyways, due to the USR rules.
Even the FAQ only says he can join a unit that is Outflanking, and yes, I know the Scouts are the only unit in the codex that can do so. Unless of course, you are running several characters with Hunter (which can be done by giving them other stuff to make them diffeent, right?).......

Bottom line, by RAW, you cannot join a Hunter IC to Scouts and have them Outflank, much less have them OBEL. The rules simply do not permit it.

That's what I'm saying. don_mondo gets it.

Ok, I gotta get in on this one cause I have debated this on our group forum.

Behind Enemy Lines opens with the Wolf Scouts using their OUTFLANK ability. It is the same as everyone else using outflank, just different rolls.

Saga of the Hunter grants the special character OUTFLANK.

At best you could say that the Wolf Scouts would now have to roll using the Outflank rolls from the rulebook and not the Behind Enemy Lines rolls. That would be the only change.

The FAQ clearly states: Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

Janurary 2010

To me they reference the Wolf Scouts as they are the only unit in the entire codex that can OUTFLANK.

This is a non-issue. This is one of the compromised rulings that the INAT has gotten right in my opinion. Is it worded well "No", but it is clear as to how it is supposed to work. Saying that an HQ with Saga of the Hunter cannot attach to Wolf Scouts is foolish. Anyone that says otherwise is nitpicky and wrong.

My 2 whole cents.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - not a difference of opinion, you simply a) made up when Ouutflank is conferred (it is conferred AT deployment, not before, therefore you are wrong) and b) you ignore that the rules conferring Outflank are lost *before* you can declare the unit is outflanking together, as you must declare that the unit is joined together witht he IC before you can state the unit whole is performing X action.

the FAQ is a houserule, therefore states the normal rules dont allow this. Please reread the Shrine of Knowledge disclaimer on FAQ vs errata - you are wrong even in your final statement, as they do NOT believe it is part of the rules and so they made it a houserule.

Look at the Reserves rule and the order of operations:

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the play must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent.

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive together, or not in which case they will count as a separate unit when rolling for reserves.

So I declare to my opponent that my Wolf Scouts are in reserves and my WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter is in reserve. At that point the outflank rule is conferred to the Wolf Scouts. I then specify to my opponent that my WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter is joining my Wolf Scout unit. The Wolf Scouts lose their Scout USR and Infiltrate USR, but they keep their outflank because it was already conferred by being placed into reserves AND the WGBL has that special rule from Saga of the Hunter granting him outflank, thus adhering to RAW.

And my final statement is not wrong. You have the developers of the game telling you exactly how they are playing the rule. They are telling you they read the BRB, the codex, and came to this conclusion thus have FAQ'd the issue brought up by the player base. The developers are playing it in agreement to my reading of the rule per RAW, not the rule per your RAI.

So you can outflank him but do you get BEL?

ChocolateGork wrote:So you can outflank him but do you get BEL?

You can outflank him fine. You can't put him in a unit of Wolf Scouts though.

But FAQ says yes.

Yes he can OBEL because the OBEL specifies thay when the Wolf Scout unit uses outflank they OBEL. The IC is part of the Wolf Scout unit for all purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.


Edit: I had hit post twice from my Blackberry.

BR please stop repeating yourself. It lends no weight to your opinion. I agree with Gwar he can neither OBEL or join the squad of Wolf Scouts. Gwar has spelt it all quite clearly.

G

But the games workshop FAQ spells it out very clearly.

And i could of sworn we use their rules.