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ChocolateGork wrote:But the games workshop FAQ spells it out very clearly.

And i could of sworn we use their rules.

While This has been pointed out before, I feel it is neccisary to point it out again.

FAQs ≠ Rules.

By the RULES, The wolf lord cannot Outflank with the Scouts, as he does not Have Scouts or Infiltrate.

That being said, the Wolf Lord Doesn't have OBEL either, so even with the FAQ, he cannot join the Scouts and Outflank since Scouts MUST OBEL.

This is a case where Gwar actually agrees with what the rules say so I must disagree with you. It does happen from time to time.

G

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

So he may outflank ... this is not RAW as the moment he joins the unit they loose all the rules that let them out flank. Since the FAQ lets them outflank they may BUT nothing at all give the the IC access to behind enemy lines, in such situations we look to the rules on page 48 of the BGB. In short unless a special rules states that it effects character that join the unit (or vise-versa) the rule does not effect them: so a unit of scout may use "Behind Enemy Lines" it just won't do anything for the IC that's joined them.

The FAQS do equal rules.

Or their will be a whole lot of sad ork players

And as a PP pointed out, He becomes part of the unit While still joined.

Do you understand how USRs work with characters joining units? This is a case where the character negates the squad's special rule.

G

And they only lose universal special rules.

Other wise just pop a lord in some thousand sons and no more slow and puposeful.

ChocolateGork wrote:And they only lose universal special rules.

Other wise just pop a lord in some thousand sons and no more slow and puposeful.

Thousand sons are slow and puposeful this is a special rule without the "*" so is not lost when joined by IC without it (vise-versa) ... this does not effect the lord (see page 48) so he cannot move and shoot heavy weapons. The unit most move at the speed of the slowest model since the TS are S&P so the unit can only move as fast as they roll.

"Behind Enemy Lines" does not work if the scouts cannot "Outflank". Scouts can only "Outflank" if they have "Infiltrate" or "Scouts" Universal Special Rules (USR). Scouts lose these two rules if an Independent Character joins them. The FAQ even says Saga of the Hunter works only if the unit he is joining is outflanking; however, they cannot outflank if he joins them.

It does not work.

It has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank.

but has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank.

but has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank..........................

Black Blow Fly wrote:BR please stop repeating yourself. It lends no weight to your opinion. I agree with Gwar he can neither OBEL or join the squad of Wolf Scouts. Gwar has spelt it all quite clearly.

G

Excuse me? None of you naysayers have actually debunked what I have said other then trying to partially quote BS half truths and say it is RAW. Please Mighty BlowFly point out the error of my ways because I have used RAW to point out how the exact process plays out. Nothing you have tried to point out has any basis to stop an IC from not only outflanking with Wolf Scouts but also OBEL with them as well. Once again for those that cannot read a simple order of process per the BRB.

1. I declare that my Wolf Scouts and WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter are in reserve. The Scout USR and Infiltrate USR then confer the outflank rule to the Wolf Scouts. So the Wolf Scouts now have these rules Scout, Infiltrate, and outflank.

2. I then specify that the WGBL will be joining the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts lose Scout and Infiltrate. They do not lose outflank because the WGBL has outflank via Saga of the Hunter and outflank was conferred the moment they were placed into reserves.

Read the freaking rule, outflank is CONFERRED when the Wolf Scouts are placed into reserves. The only time from that point on that they can then lose outflank is if they are joined by an IC that does not have outflank. You and others believe that when they lose the Scout and Infiltrate USR, they also lose outflank but that is not RAW. Keeping the outflank rule is NOT conditional on keeping the Scout USR and Infiltrate USR. Yes GETTING the outflank rule is conditional on having Scout and Infiltrate, but not maintaining it.

Moving onto OBEL. The Wolf Scout rule specifically points out that when the Wolf Scout unit outflanks, they OBEL. The Wolf Scout UNIT. When an IC with Saga of the Hunter joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.

Now, like I said Blowfly, point out where I am wrong. This is my entire argument based on RAW. Nos was more effective in pointing out my mistake regarding when outflank if conferred, however that only allowed me to research the reserve rules and reinforce the process in which units are placed in reserve and when IC join those units.

No. The FAQ says he can outflank with an outflanking unit. When an IC joins a unit with Infiltrate or Scouts USRs, that unit loses those abilities. So if the IC joins the Wolf Scouts they lose the ability to outflank; and per the FAQ, if the unit he joins cannot outflank, then neither can he.

Brother Ramses, the flaw that you're overlooking is:

1. Join the IC to the unit when you organize your reserves.
2. Now that the IC has joined the unit, if it had Scout it loses that rule according to the USR section.
3. When you go to declare that the combined unit is outflanking, you discover that they lost Outflank as part of losing Scout in step #2.

Being placed into reserved with the Scout rule doesn't confer Outflank. The possession of the Scout rule at all is what confers the ability to outflank, so there's no timing sequence for you to try to get around.

Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

The FAQ SAYS IT!!

At first it states scouts then it says unit.

And if you read the codex you will find large and diverse range of units that can outflank.

Among them are WOLF SCOUTS, WOLF SCOUTS the unit called WOLF SCOUTS oh and dont forget WOLF SCOUTS

solkan wrote:Brother Ramses, the flaw that you're overlooking is:

1. Join the IC to the unit when you organize your reserves.
2. Now that the IC has joined the unit, if it had Scout it loses that rule according to the USR section.
3. When you go to declare that the combined unit is outflanking, you discover that they lost Outflank as part of losing Scout in step #2.

Being placed into reserved with the Scout rule doesn't confer Outflank. The possession of the Scout rule at all is what confers the ability to outflank, so there's no timing sequence for you to try to get around.

Please read the rule for both Infiltrate and Scout. The last sentence in both says that the rules confer outflank when the unit is placed into reserves. Then go an read the reserves rule. You declare which units are in reserve AND then you specify if an IC is joining a unit. The timing sequence is right there as plain as day if you would just read the freaking rule. The fact that you think it is JUST the Scout USR that confers outflank and not also Infiltrate shows that you haven't even read the rules for either and just going off of what you have heard from others.

Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

Or we could just look at the faq that GW kindly supplied to us.

Ironhide wrote:Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

No you don't. You declare what units are in reserve first. It is right there on page 94. The following paragraph you specify if any IC are joining a unit.

So when you declare that the Wolf Scout are in reserve, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, both the Scout and Infiltrate USR CONFER outflank to the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts have Scout, Infitrate, and outflank.

When you specify that the IC with Saga of the Hunter is joining the Wolf Scouts they lose Scout and Infiltrate because the IC does not have those USR. However the Wolf Scouts do not lose outflank because the IC has it via Saga of the Hunter.

That follows all the RAW for Reserves, and IC in reserves joining a unit, and IC and unit special rules.

How can you keep arguing this. Between the actual rules and the faq. It is clear he can outflank and he can use BEL

Page 94 says
"First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserves are joining a unit"

The "first" part makes it seem like that should happen. . . first.

And later on, on the same page, it states that you must say which units with infiltrate and/or scouts are outflanking. If the IC is with them, they no longer have either of those USRs.

kirsanth wrote:Page 94 says
"First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserves are joining a unit"

The "first" part makes it seem like that should happen. . . first.

And read the paragraph right above that paragraph where it tells you to declare to your opponent what units are in reserve. Even the sentence you quoted above supports my claim with "...any of his independent characters left in reserves...". You had to declare prior that the IC was in reserves to be "left in reserves" and specify if he was joining a unit. How are you specifying that an IC is joining a unit in reserves before you declare that the IC and unit in question are even in reserves in the first place?

BR - you keep ignoring *first* and pretending it happens secnod.

Sorry, you are wrong on this. The FAQ provides permisison, however due to its "house rules " nature it really should have been an Errata to work.

in other words they *entirely* stuffed up when they created Hunter, and they should have changed the rules to reflect this. Why they did not do so, in a hard format at least, and copped out with a House Rule is anybody's guess - espeically given the VAST number of errata already

Ironhide wrote:And later on, on the same page, it states that you must say which units with infiltrate and/or scouts are outflanking. If the IC is with them, they no longer have either of those USRs.

Your right. They no longer have Scout or Infiltrate, but they still have outflank because it was conferred the moment they were placed into reserves. Once again, keeping outflank is not conditional on keeping Scout or Infiltrate.

The last line of the USR rule requires that they are in reserve with the USR in order to gain Outflank. As soon as the IC joins the unit they no longer meet this criteria, therefore they do not have Outflank.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - you keep ignoring *first* and pretending it happens secnod.

Sorry, you are wrong on this. The FAQ provides permisison, however due to its "house rules " nature it really should have been an Errata to work.

in other words they *entirely* stuffed up when they created Hunter, and they should have changed the rules to reflect this. Why they did not do so, in a hard format at least, and copped out with a House Rule is anybody's guess - espeically given the VAST number of errata already

Read the rule Nos. Explain to me how you can specify that an IC can join a unit in reserves if you have not declared that he and the unit are both in reserves. The rule is clear as day that tells you to declare what units are in reserve and then specify and IC "left in reserves" is joining a unit. I ask you, how could the IC be "left in reserves" if you had not declared him reserves beforehand?

Sorry BR, Nos is right.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Ironhide wrote:Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

No you don't. You declare what units are in reserve first. It is right there on page 94. The following paragraph you specify if any IC are joining a unit.

So when you declare that the Wolf Scout are in reserve, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, both the Scout and Infiltrate USR CONFER outflank to the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts have Scout, Infitrate, and outflank.

When you specify that the IC with Saga of the Hunter is joining the Wolf Scouts they lose Scout and Infiltrate because the IC does not have those USR. However the Wolf Scouts do not lose outflank because the IC has it via Saga of the Hunter.

That follows all the RAW for Reserves, and IC in reserves joining a unit, and IC and unit special rules.

But it doesn't say "This rule grants the unit to Outflank when they are placed in reserve." It says "... confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94)" and "confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94)." See also page 94, "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

The rule gives them the ability WHILE they are in reserve. It confers a special move to units that "are kept in reserve." If you take away the rule, then they no longer have anything conferring them the ability. You know, in the same way that abilities granted when IC's join units don't last beyond the lifespan of the granting IC.

BR - it has been explained to you now a number of times. You cling to the last line of the USR, and ignore that the USR is removed as soon as the unit has the IC hop in - which results in you NOT being able to declare Outflank as you no longer have the rule.

And you for some reason ignore the rules of games.

The FAQ has the exact question in it.

Hey guys!

Haven't we been kicking this ball back and forth for the past two pages? I dont think either side is ready to step down at the moment. I suggest we give this one a rest. ChocolateGork will have to go elsewhere in the meantime to get an unanimous answer that satisfies his own personal requirement.

G