Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Enemy choosing the Dance?

Surely that only applies to the Kislevs with the Diaghilev Impressario Special Rule

Q. When in a round of combat is a Wardancer unit required to select
their Shadow Dance? (p19)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses when the
decision must be made.

Seriously XD

Erm...
so...
but...


WHA..!?

For once, words fail me.

Well, I just won convincingly over WoC yesterday with my tree army! Dryads are epic with Initiative 6, and Treekin hit really hard. I even forgot to use thunderstomp with my treeman ancient. Overall, our fighty units got a lot fightier, imho!!

The increased use of magic for some armies won't help, along with the nasty big spells, negating forest spirit ward saves. But the units I'm using seem to have gotten better, not worse. I think people are overreacting about wood elves in the new edition!

Sure, MSU-strategy doesn't work as well for anybody. But we can adjust, we have great core unit choices, and some heavy hitters as well. It's true we don't have good blocks (except perhaps eternal guard) but that's nothing new!

Overall I was very pleased with the army and I think we may be worrying over nothing, for the most part, at least

Pretty much, I can't wait till a few months down the line and see how it goes once everything is all smoothed out. And I can actually get a game in to see first hand how it effects WE. But it actually dosen't look that bad just need to bring along some heavy hitters.

My WE opponent yesterday was saying that you don't count woods that you're standing in for cover when shooting out of them.

The situation was that there was a VERY large [12" circular, ish] woods template that he was standing on the very very back edge of. He claimed that since woods you're standing in don't count, he got free reign to shoot anything of mine without the soft or hard cover penalties [unless of course they were hunkered down in cover elsewhere].

I still need to confirm, but I let it slide during the game because it seemed plausible to me. He also claimed that ranks beyond the first could shoot, but only half the models in the ranks. More things I need to double check.

I'm not sure how to deal with area terrain now- in 40k, I believe it's true LOS, so no benefit from just standing on the edge of something. But in fantasy I always assumed that area terrain was simulating a wooded area for the entire space.

An player in a different game yesterday shot across the edge of a woods area without giving his opponent a soft cover benefit, since in true LOS nothing was blocked (the actual trees were farther to the side). I thought shooting over/through area terrain would give a soft cover benefit. Any thoughts?

Yours is a good question, Spellbound, and it also sounds plausible to me, but I"m not sure. He was definitely right about ranks beyond the first being able to shoot- I thought that with bows, the entire second rank could shoot, and half of each rank after that. I'll try to look it up a bit later in my shiny new rulebook

I know the second rank can, just was unsure of the ones behind them.

In 40k, they tried to define area terrain as still having solid elements - like if you have a 12" strip of woods with a tree 3" in from either side, someone standing "in the open" between the trees gets cover from the trees even if he's not covered. On the 2" on the ends that don't have trees and aren't between trees though, he won't get it [unless he's ON the template].

What it's become instead is simply that Area terrain templates give cover to those behind them, period, unless they're a vehicle [which actually has to go for the trees to get cover].

Reason this has come to pass has been move-able tree templates where the trees aren't glued down, so that they can be shifted to allow space for models. So we've for the most part gone to abstract woods that are either thick enough to give cover to vehicles or only to infantry and never vehicles, and left it at that.

Fantasy even more needs mobile trees since the units aren't skirmish style and even when they are don't have 2 to 4 inch distances between models. The trees have to be allowed to move so ranked blocks can fit in. That being said, TLOS needs to still have an abstract element to it when it comes to area terrain. Face it, if we made a jungle how it's supposed to be, it would be impassable because models couldn't stand on it.

It is now true los for fantasy as well. If you can see something you can shoot it.

I agree, Spellbound- I'll have to see how it plays out at the local level, but that's the only way that makes sense to me. Of course, you can still shoot the models (true LOS) but imho they should get the -1 to hit from soft cover modifiers.

i was mistaken about cav and stomp by the way oops.

Double post

Spellbound wrote:He also claimed that ranks beyond the first could shoot, but only half the models in the ranks. More things I need to double check.

This is the Volley Fire rule, and is available for certain weapons. In the normal rules you may fire in 2 ranks (yes this also applies to Skirmishers since they now have ranks), however some weapons have the volley fire rule, that allows the unit if it didn't move to fire with 1/2 the models in the 3rd and later ranks.

Oh and you can't do this with the Stand and Shoot reaction. . .

Yeah he did it with stand and shoot and he did it while moving. I know wood elves don't suffer -1 for movement, but it seems to me moving will still prevent them from using volley fire.

True LOS and cover was one of the dumbest things to hit 40k, especially with area cover. There are even rules about having a cover save if the model is between 2 vertical objests in a section of area terrain (ie you get a cover save if you are between 2 trees/lamposts etc but not otherwise?) so if you have a wood as mentionned above with movable trees you could (if you're a douche) move the trees to give yourself a save and later move them to deny one to an enemy...
Also people did things like bitz order only crouching firewarrior legs to present a smaller target profile...

Some abstraction is necessary for area cover to work and not be exploitable really, and whilst I agree with TLOS for some points of target aquisition some bit are just daft...

I have yet to read the 8th ed section on it however..

I'm glad to hear your Tree poeple kicking arse, I've been thinking about fielding blocks of 20 GG in 2 ranks with banner so they can all shoot and attack, might be fun..

Has no one had the woods they were using as cover attack them yet?


PS I was disapponted that they didn't rebalance WD ASF dance, we still lose an attack to do what any old dress wearing HE can do?
I have no idea what they are going on about with the acting player chooses when the dance applies from thing in the FAQ either.

Thw woods only react when you move into them, so if you start out in woods you're ok. Plus the free wood is not haunted or cursed in any way.

Just a few things.

First, In the rulebook it clearly states that as long as you are IN the woods, the unit you are shooting out of the woods -at- does not get the cover penalty thingie.

Second. I'd like to know why a wood elf player -ever- uses his archers in more than two ranks, seems a bit silly to me, attaching to that you can shoot with the first two ranks all the time.

Third, High elves can out-shoot, out-stab, and out-blast us pretty much everyday of the week. Empire is the same. I'm about 90% sure against any top-tier army played by someone as good as you (player skill is -everything- in this game and in 40k) Wood elves lose to the Top Tiers, and likely just about everyone else, minus maybe the Brets...

In short, we can always hope that GW decides to fix the most broken/crippled Books first. Which means it'd fall to the Brets, WE and TK (not in order by any means, but in order of what I think needs the most help).

Final Note. Some of the magical woods thingies WE ignore. As per the FAQ all WE units (minus Flyers flying) have Forest Strider, which means WE ignores all dangerous terrain Tests, granted I am pretty sure the Blood Forest and the wild woods will still effect the WE, but hey..you can hide in a poison forest all day and get poison attacks.


And hey, it could be worse...could be the Brets with those Calvary Nerfs.

Ya but brets got a few nice things back whilest we mostly got nerfed across the baord.


About the nicest thing we managed to get from the new update was thunderstomp on our treemen >.>

Treekin are supposed to be better if you want to spending that many points on 6 models which magic will decimate...

I wouldn't want to be associated with those models myself....

Is that what forest strider does?, make you immune to (some) of the effects? Thats handy at least, wait (3-4 years) for the new book and there will probably be very nasty (for our foes) special wood elf 'entering a forest' tables.....

We should start a campaign for a WD update! WE book isn't even on the radar yet..

Sorry what were those cavalry nerfs?

3-4 years? That gives 2 years max before 9th edition for GW to screw the Woodies again!
What have they got against Athel Loren and its denizens!?!

Sakuzhi wrote:
In short, we can always hope that GW decides to fix the most broken/crippled Books first. Which means it'd fall to the Brets, WE and TK (not in order by any means, but in order of what I think needs the most help).

OT I know but the new TK models are at least half done.
Unsure as to when the book is to be done but I'd assume 6-9 months.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:3-4 years? That gives 2 years max before 9th edition for GW to screw the Woodies again!
What have they got against Athel Loren and its denizens!?!

That's the way she goes seemingly.
I thought that since the last book really ramped up their popularity (and power, WE did well in torneys for a while) they would get a bit more love. I think there was at least one Ed where they didn't get a book at all and it was about 10yrs between the current book and it's predecessor. I'm glad my army in 40k is marines!

The codex creep in Fantasy is really off the hook for a book which I thought was a bit OP to be followed by DE and CD and now to be considered bottom tier. The rules update has only exacerbated this.

I like playing the underdog and one of the things I enjoy about WE is the skill required to play them, careful manouver followed by vicous multicharges by delicate but lethal units, kept safe only by speed, terrain and the lack of strikers back. We'll have to see how it all works out and I haven't played in ages anyway but a hard army to use seems to be getting even harder.

/

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Sakuzhi wrote:
In short, we can always hope that GW decides to fix the most broken/crippled Books first. Which means it'd fall to the Brets, WE and TK (not in order by any means, but in order of what I think needs the most help).

OT I know but the new TK models are at least half done.
Unsure as to when the book is to be done but I'd assume 6-9 months.

I thought there was suppose to be another codex released this year sometime? I think the order will go something like this, just guessing don't take anything I say to heart.

This Year: Tomb Kings?
Next Year: Ogre Kingdoms and either Bretonia or Wood Elves.
2012: who knows too far out to guess.

Or at least that how I hope it goes.

Well..Thing is with Ogre Kingdoms, is they got a mega buff

Granted they needed it, so might be a while before they get a new book.


As for the Calvary Nerf. The Lance got wacked with the nerf hammer as you don't get to attack in the 3rd rank and further back anymore.

Also>Steadfast, if the unit you are fighting has more ranks than you they recieve "stubborn" which can be the Generals LD.

So, with those 24 pt+ knight models odds are you aren't outranking them.

So you hit them, kill them, they stay there because of the flat LD test they'd take for losing combat.

And congrats! Your heavy calvary is now locked in combat. (the combat effectiveness of Hvy Cal is drops greatly every round past the first)]


Also, There is no Codexes in Fantasy. There are only Army Books, keep that 40k silliness in the 40k realm.

Can one say 'Army book' creep?

Lacks the punch/snappyness

RandyMcStab wrote:I'm glad to hear your Tree poeple kicking arse, I've been thinking about fielding blocks of 20 GG in 2 ranks with banner so they can all shoot and attack, might be fun..

Has no one had the woods they were using as cover attack them yet?

Yes, some of my trees got eaten yesterday . But the effects aren't so bad- I had 2 wildwoods yesterday and only took a wound on a treekin, and I think lost a dryad. It only takes effect on a 4+, and then it causes D6 str 4 wounds. The venomous thicket is the one we're immune to (dangerous terrain test). And Blood Forest only activates if someone casts a spell on the unit in that forest. So, all in all, they're not nearly so bad as I thought.

I don't agree about our "free" wood not needing to roll on the table- it was a wildwood for me yesterday once I entered it.

Also- my tree army is now 2-0!!! Granted, my second game was against an O&G list not totally tuned for 8th edition, but not bad, either. His black orcs charged my unit of 6 treekin, and I only lost combat by 2! He was only 6-wide, but that's all that would fit against 3-wide treekin, anyway (125mm is 5 orcs, 120mm is 3 treekin, so they're slightly wider than the treekin, and only 6 can touch rather than 7). I held and counter-charged with a treeman ancient and treeman . End of black orcs!

Dryads with their high initiative ate small stuff like they usually do. However, he finally manuevered his 10-wide normal boys into position- and they killed 10 dryads in a single round of combat. Plus all that combat res, it was murderous! I would need another unit of treekin to take them on.

Those D6 hits could break my Scouts or WW tho...

Is your tree army actually tree only are there still a few elves knocking about. I always preferred elf based forces myself. Glad to hear your kicking arse however!

All-tree, except for 2 eagles, which I think fit

I do own some wildriders, a unicorn spellsinger, a great stag noble, and orion, but they've gone on the shelf for good now. I like them so I'm keeping them for nostalgia purposes, though...

For the trees I've got 64 dryads, 18 treekin, 3 treemen, and 3 branchwraiths (which I tend to use a branch nymphs, or if I play a low point level game where a treeman ancient won't fit, one of them will have to be my general).

Most people I've talked to seem to prefer the elves, which for some reason is the opposite of how I feel!

I still like to field glade guard with my mostly tree army. Most of my lords and heros are normally elves, bsb on great eagle ftw. Although im normally torn between a treeman ancient and a lvl 4 with the which elm and lore of life. I really enjoy shuting down my oppenants magic phase because of the lores out the new book are well disturbing.

Wild riders to me now equal suck so they're getting retired to the shelve along with my warhawks, which have been suck now for quite sometime.

I've only got two treemen and four treekin so regardless to say Ill be adding more. As for Dyrads when I first started collecting WE's five years ago I had 24. Now I only have 20 so Ill be adding more of them as well. Glade guard I've got thirty so another box will help too. I've got two great eagles which is all I really need. In other words a battlion box may suite me well. two more treekin and two more treemen will pretty much ensure my army is complete, if there is ever such a thing.

I've got a Treeman (converted LoTR Treebeard, only nice TM GW ever made IMHO), 24 ish Dryads of which 16 ish are the naff old ones :( 0 treekin, over 100 archers, 45 spears, 30ish WD, 10 WW, assorted heros/mages, 10 ancient cavalry and 6 Wild riders oh and 5ish Warhawks (used once). Most of my stuff is very old models, most of my archers are Scarloc's and even some 'Warhammer fantasy regiments' plastic ones.

Like I said quite pro elf...