Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Well you are actually thinking of it wrong. The Phalactry does not say more wounds, does not say additional wounds, does not say it gains the wounds. It states that it has the wounds. Since the mask says it has -1 wound for remainder of game, and the Plalactry says it has X wounds. Dante's mask would effect that number.

And since when does -1 wound equal taking a wound. It modifies the characteristic.

Just because something in a FAQ sounds like, looks like, has an effect like something else in another codex. Does not mean you use it for all things like it... So this rubbish about Doom's ability is garabage plain and simple.

No. Phylactery says he stands up with three wounds. As he has already lost the remainder of his wounds, these MUST be, and may only be new wounds. Wounds that are expended in 40k do not come back. If a space marine shoots off one of your character's wounds, you have lost that wound. This doesn't prevent you from getting another, similar wound to take the place of an expended one. It's like flashlight batteries, if a battery (wound) is expended, the battery may either be replaced by a new one, or it will continue to not function. Even if your remote only takes 2 batteries, if you happen to have a third battery for when one of the first ones dies, you can replace it with your backup.

The W characteristic is not some kind of upward HP limit. The only concrete limit to any statistic in 40k is 10. No unit may have a stat above 10 for any reason. Nowhere in any codex does it say that a Unit's W statistic designates anything other than the number of wounds a model starts the game with.

My example with Doom was not "garbage." I was stating that it's a very popularly known, common example of how one can easily exceed one's wound statistic. Phylactery specifically states that the model now has 3 wounds. Again, unless you can point to a rule somewhere that says "A model can never have more wounds than it's wound statistic" it makes no damn difference if his W statistic is 2 or not, as Phylactery doesn't mention it. Hell, he could have a W statistic of 0, but his wound total during play is still 3.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Though his wound characteristic is not being brought up with phylactery.

Something similar? Yes.

He stands up with three. Simple as that.

QFT

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Necfron stands up with 3 wounds, as this is the more specific rule.

Death mask is overidden by themore specific rule for Phylactory.

QFT

Rashim wrote:
It is a very Easy concept.

The Mask does a -1 W to the Necron Lords stat line for "the remainder of the game", whilst the Phylactery says that when the lord rolls a 6 on a d6 on a WBB roll, he stands up with 3 wounds. It has NOTHING to do with his stat line. He simply just stands up and has 3 wounds. They are there. It never takes into account the lords stat line in the wording. So Dante's mask doing -1 W to to the lords stat line has no precedence, because the stat line is NEVER called into play.

So, whoever killed Dante with their lord wins.

QFT

Kapitalist, you're entirely welcome to play the game however you may wish to. I'm not here to tell you how to play the game. What I will tell you is that your logic is flawed, and a majority of posters have said so. You're welcome to try to convince a Necron player you play with Dante against that you're right, but if they stick to their guns, and have a sound mastery of logic, you will end up in an argument that will only end in bad sportsmanship, and a reputation for being TFG.

Dante: I have this golden mask made of super imperial tech that turns you into a weakened child!

Necron Lord: This little neck charm nullifies your mask. Relics>FotM *does the haters gonna hate walk*

^Pretty much what I gathered from the majority viewpoint.

Kurgash wrote:Dante: I have this golden mask made of super imperial tech that turns you into a weakened child!

Necron Lord: *Silence* *does the haters gonna hate walk*

^Pretty much what I gathered from the majority viewpoint.

Fixed it for you

Also true. Either way am I the only one who finds this situation hilarious?

Kurgash wrote:Dante: I have this golden mask made of super imperial tech that turns you into a weakened child!

Necron Lord: This little neck charm nullifies your mask. Relics>FotM *does the haters gonna hate walk*

^Pretty much what I gathered from the majority viewpoint.

aside from the other stat decreases

you can exceed your maximum Wounds characteristic? of course you can, a S3 Guardsman would still be S6 with a Relic Blade, an Ork Nob can get more WS with a banner, heck, the Blood Angels Sanguinor himself can boost someone above his normal wounds stat. the abilities of units are never completely solid and can always be shifted about with many special items

3 for the Necron Lord
the Relic Blade is the primary example, it's has set your stat for you, regardless of other criteria, you could be at -1 Strength and it will still hit at S6. you want the Necron Lord to have 1 less wound? then attack him

the Death Mask does say "for the rest of the battle" but that one less wound DID help you take the Necron Lord down, he just got back up again

Maybe I am looking at the Mask and seeing the the -1 modifier is lasting the entire game, and that is effecting my thought process.

I see it like this. Model starts out with 3 wounds. Mask applies modifier.

3-1=2

then the model takes a wound. 3-1-1=1

then the model takes another wound. 3-1-1-1=0

but the model still has the -1 modifier on it. 0-1

so I am looking at it like this. not that the model losses the wound and that is the extent of the mask.

When the model gets back up the modifier is still there in my mind. so if it got back up it would be 0-1+3=2 that is how I am thinking of it. I agree that, none of us are telling the others how to play. I thought we were dicussing this and trying to see if there was a way to agreement on the subject. If we agree to disagree I am fine. Maybe I needed to be more straight forward and just lay my full thought out there so that there is no confusion.

You are reapplying the masks effects though. The Lords statline would still be -1 to everything but he is not taking a wound as you're describing because you're putting it into a context as he was dealt damage, which he wasn't. Your negative to wounds has been applied and is stated in his statline for the rest of the game (along with the other negatives associated with the mask) but that does not mean you can reapply it.

As it has been said many times already, the item states that the lord gets back up with 3 wounds, since he never left play and his statline wounds will still be 2, he has received a wound above and beyond his now modified stats. If he were to receive a -1 AGAIN then all of his other stats affected by the mask would be at "another" -1, so -2. You are getting stuck on the fact of thinking the lord standing back up constitutes a new model AND you are reapplying the effects of the mask a second time but only to one stat instead of them all.

Had the item said the model stands up with all wounds back (instead of stating a specific number, as such is the case) then he would only receive 2 wounds. As it specifically states he gets up with 3 wounds, he regains 3 wounds with no negative because he is not receiving damage. Ultimately, the lord still has only had the benefit of 5 wounds at this point instead of 6, thus he is still at the -1 modifier.

Kevin949 wrote:You are reapplying the masks effects though. The Lords statline would still be -1 to everything but he is not taking a wound as you're describing because you're putting it into a context as he was dealt damage, which he wasn't. Your negative to wounds has been applied and is stated in his statline for the rest of the game (along with the other negatives associated with the mask) but that does not mean you can reapply it.

As it has been said many times already, the item states that the lord gets back up with 3 wounds, since he never left play and his statline wounds will still be 2, he has received a wound above and beyond his now modified stats. If he were to receive a -1 AGAIN then all of his other stats affected by the mask would be at "another" -1, so -2. You are getting stuck on the fact of thinking the lord standing back up constitutes a new model AND you are reapplying the effects of the mask a second time but only to one stat instead of them all.

Had the item said the model stands up with all wounds back (instead of stating a specific number, as such is the case) then he would only receive 2 wounds. As it specifically states he gets up with 3 wounds, he regains 3 wounds with no negative because he is not receiving damage. Ultimately, the lord still has only had the benefit of 5 wounds at this point instead of 6, thus he is still at the -1 modifier.

It's not the Necron Lord standing up with his max wounds, he stands up with three wounds, free and clear.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Maybe I am looking at the Mask and seeing the the -1 modifier is lasting the entire game, and that is effecting my thought process.

I see it like this. Model starts out with 3 wounds. Mask applies modifier.

3-1=2

then the model takse another wound. 3-1-1=1

A)then the model takes another wound. 3-1-1-1=0

B)but the model still has the -1 modifier on it. 0-1

so I am looking at it like this. not that the model losses the wound and that is the extent of the mask.

When the model gets back up the modifier is still there in my mind. so if it got back up it would be 0-1+3=2 that is how I am thinking of it. I agree that, none of us are telling the others how to play. I thought we were dicussing this and trying to see if there was a way to agreement on the subject. If we agree to disagree I am fine. Maybe I needed to be more straight forward and just lay my full thought out there so that there is no confusion.

How did you get from point A to point B? You're applying the effects of the mask twice right their.

Think of it this way:

Lord starts with three wounds.

DANTE'S MASK!

Lord has two wounds, then your logic seems to state that since he has two wounds left, take it down another one!

DANTE'S MASK!

Lord has one wound!

DANTE'S MASK!

So that before you even put him down, he's dead.

No actually what I was saying is that since the modifier is there for the rest of the game you apply . Maybe is should go like this.

3(-1)=2
3(-1)-1=1
3(-1)-1-1=0

Once the model has 0 it would die.

Phalactry makes him have the 3 again, if rolled that way.

so you start at 0(-1) because it is there the remainder of the game. 0(-1)+3=2

That is how I see it. Just because the 0 happens does not mean the full effects of the mask are gone. once something hit zero it would normally be taken off the tabel, but with WBB the model has a chance to get back up. When this happens the -1 is going to still be effecting the model. that 1 wound that was taken by the mask is already is gone, nothing is there taking it's place.

I think what you all are saying is that that -1 is taken by the 1 wound at the begining of the game, and that 1 wound being taken is always there to fill the spot of the -1.

Am I at least getting that right?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
3(-1)=2
3(-1)-1=1
3(-1)-1-1=0

Am I at least getting that right?

No, your math is wrong.

3(-1)=-3
3(-1)-1=-4
3(-1)-1-1=-5

The fact that the model went to zero means it is there, otherwise it would not go to zero in the first place. So model goes to 0 which includes the -1W, then it gets back 3W. If the -1W was not there then the model would actually have 4W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
3(-1)=2
3(-1)-1=1
3(-1)-1-1=0

Am I at least getting that right?

No, your math is wrong.

3(-1)=-3
3(-1)-1=-4
3(-1)-1-1=-5

Ok that's just funny.

Thanks Gwar I knew you would come out and make this funny again.

Actually if the mask was not there you would not be making a roll for the lord at all, unless he took mulitple wounds that killed him.

What does it matter anyways, if you are a BA player you attack the squad this guys is attached to, SA them and he is just removed.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:What does it matter anyways, if you are a BA player you attack the squad this guys is attached to, SA them and he is just removed.

And how did you get from 0 to -1 again? Applying the mask twice randomly?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:What does it matter anyways, if you are a BA player you attack the squad this guys is attached to, SA them and he is just removed.

And how did you get from 0 to -1 again? Applying the mask twice randomly?

I am a bit confused how you got to that statement again when I was saying if you sweeping advance you remove what ever models that are caught in sweeping advance from the game.

And to reply to that confusing statment. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am saying that the mask's effects are always there.(Until end of game) So once a model hits zero wounds (for any reason 0 is 0 model is dead pending something like this) That model still has been targeted by the mask. You all are saying that, that 1 wound that was taken away is still there. If by defenition that model still has that wound you wound not get you WWB roll. Because he still technically has that wound. he would lay around the table models trampling him in the ground until the start of the next game.

That is where I get to the 0 with the negative modifier of 1. or 0(-1). Because the mask effects are still there. Again if you say but that 1 wound has taken care of this then you wound not get the WBB because that model still technically has that 1 wound with that -1 modifier.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:No actually what I was saying is that since the modifier is there for the rest of the game you apply . Maybe is should go like this.

3(-1)=2
3(-1)-1=1
3(-1)-1-1=0

Once the model has 0 it would die.

Phalactry makes him have the 3 again, if rolled that way.

so you start at 0(-1) because it is there the remainder of the game. 0(-1)+3=2

That is how I see it. Just because the 0 happens does not mean the full effects of the mask are gone. once something hit zero it would normally be taken off the tabel, but with WBB the model has a chance to get back up. When this happens the -1 is going to still be effecting the model. that 1 wound that was taken by the mask is already is gone, nothing is there taking it's place.

I think what you all are saying is that that -1 is taken by the 1 wound at the begining of the game, and that 1 wound being taken is always there to fill the spot of the -1.

Am I at least getting that right?

The -1 is not applied to the formula's it is applied to the units statline. Your example (while mathematically wrong, I get what you're saying) is applying a -3 over time, not a -1.

The Lord (or anyone affected by this) is not "taking a wound" they are having their stats modified which is very very different. Any stat can still be raised above whatever is listed in their base profile, such as by way of furious charge or power fists. Phylactery is no different, except the confusion here comes from the fact that the lords base stat is W3. That is what he has at the start of the game. At the end of the game he could have potentially taken 10 wounds and still be alive, if good WBB rolls are made. That is far beyond the starting stat. The only reason this is confusing is because the amount of wounds gained back by phylactery happen to be the same amount of wounds the lord normally starts the game with.

How it should work -
Start Game: 3W
Mask: -1W=2W stat
During Game: Takes 2W from unsaved damage
WBB+Phylactery: Roll 6 gain 3 wounds and get back up.

So, 3-1=2. 2-2=0. 0+3=3. Takes 3 more wounds unsaved and dies for good. So, 3 gained plus 2 starting equals 5 total wounds throughout the game, not 6. The -1 remained. Had you reapplied it on the WBB roll it would be 2 starting and 2 gained, making it 4 total at -2.

How did the Necron Lord need to make a WBB roll after losing two wounds?
Dante's Mask applied.

How did the Necron Lord stand up with 3 wounds?
Necron Lords Phylactery applied.

/shrug

So if I am getting what you saying about the modifier, then when the model reaches 0 how is the -1 that is on the character taken away?

The reason I ask this is that the mask says for remainder of the game, and once a model reaches zero it would ultimatly still be there because the game is still going on.

So the reason I see the -1 still being applied, and no not applied more then once. the stat should read W-1. So you would start out at W-1 and then have that be the stat line for the remainder.

or like this W-1
3
which then equals this 2

then what ever wounds are taken away to get the reroll
so then it would be W-1
2-2
0
3
2
Seeing how the W-1 is the effect.

The adjustment to the character's statline makes no damn difference to Phylac thats why.

Phylac gives a static number of wounds. Dante's doesn't do anymore than a maximum of 1 wound per game. ti literally deals a wound to the model when it's applied. It also reduces that model's W stat, which makes almost no difference ever, as most units don't give a flying about their W stat after the game starts.

Kap, imagine that, at setup, everyone is issued a bean in acordance with the number in their W stat.

Lord has 3 beans. Dante's goes off. Lord makes a sad face as dante's steals one of his beloved beans. Dante's skitters off into a corner, eats the bean, and falls asleep, fat dumb and happy. The Necron lord is so nerd-raged about having his bean stolen that he has -1 WS and -1 Init.

His remaining two beans are taken from him by other, cruel, foul mouthed, Blood Angels units.

Now, because the lord brought a magic bean jar with him, he gets to make a dice throw, and open the jar. If he's lucky, he gets more beans from the jar. This bean jar is totally independant from his W statistic. He reaches his hand in, and now has 3 whole more beans!

The effect you seem to think that Dante's has would be some kind of debuff to healing. That's not what it is at all.

Dante's, having already taken one of his beans, doesn't magically swoop in and scoop one out of his hand, because it's already taken its 1 rule mandated bean from the lord

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So if I am getting what you saying about the modifier, then when the model reaches 0 how is the -1 that is on the character taken away?

The reason I ask this is that the mask says for remainder of the game, and once a model reaches zero it would ultimatly still be there because the game is still going on.

So the reason I see the -1 still being applied, and no not applied more then once. the stat should read W-1. So you would start out at W-1 and then have that be the stat line for the remainder.

or like this W-1
3
which then equals this 2

then what ever wounds are taken away to get the reroll
so then it would be W-1
2-2
0
3
2
Seeing how the W-1 is the effect.

It is not taken away. His statline is still 2W but he receives 3 wounds back from a 6 on the WBB from the phylactery. He has still only benefited from 5 wounds instead of 6 throughout the game. The mask only changes his starting stats, not anything that gets applied as a bonus. You don't go 3 start, -1 for mask, +3 for phylactery, -1 for mask. The negative was applied once already at the start to his stat line it is NOT an actual wound being taken as happens in combat.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You know that your entire explaintion about how this works is great execpt for one thing. The mask Reduces the characteristic of WS, Init, Attacks and Wounds. Now to say that the mask causes a wound is improper. It says that the Model has -1 to all the stats listed. So how can a model who has 3 wounds to start lose one for the the remained of the game get that one back? The profile has been altered by the mask. Thus you cannot have more wounds then you have at the start of the game.

This is exactly right. You cant ever go back to three wounds as the model has been reduced to a base 2 wounds. I think he loses an additional wound when he comes back since the death mask then kicks in again.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You know that your entire explaintion about how this works is great execpt for one thing. The mask Reduces the characteristic of WS, Init, Attacks and Wounds. Now to say that the mask causes a wound is improper. It says that the Model has -1 to all the stats listed. So how can a model who has 3 wounds to start lose one for the the remained of the game get that one back? The profile has been altered by the mask. Thus you cannot have more wounds then you have at the start of the game.

This is exactly right. You cant ever go back to three wounds as the model has been reduced to a base 2 wounds. I think he loses an additional wound when he comes back since the death mask then kicks in again.

G

Except that the item (phylactery) does not state the model is going back to full wounds, he is gaining three wounds. If the mask "kicked in again" he would lose 1 to all of his stats a second time.

Black Blow Fly wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
You know that your entire explaintion about how this works is great execpt for one thing. The mask Reduces the characteristic of WS, Init, Attacks and Wounds. Now to say that the mask causes a wound is improper. It says that the Model has -1 to all the stats listed. So how can a model who has 3 wounds to start lose one for the the remained of the game get that one back? The profile has been altered by the mask. Thus you cannot have more wounds then you have at the start of the game.

This is exactly right. You cant ever go back to three wounds as the model has been reduced to a base 2 wounds. I think he loses an additional wound when he comes back since the death mask then kicks in again.

G

No, it isn't.

His W stat has NO EFFECT, repeat NO EFFECT on the number of wounds he has after the first set. The W stat has NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING to do with the healing from Phylactery, and the W stat has ZILCH, repeat ZILCH, to do with how many wounds a model has after initial set-up. Phylac grants a given number of wounds based on roll.

This argument has been rehashed at least a half dozen times now, it's been explained differently at least twice that number, and the general consensus is that Phylac's healing and WBB is uneffected by Dante's Mask. Logic and the burden of proof support this consensus opinion. The question has been answered and clarified, and beaten to death. Further comment is inane and pointless.

Go back and read the rules for Dante's deathmask again. What is the exact wording for the necron wargear?

G

Exact Wording already in this thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/304238.page#1728726

The rules are paraphrased but not quoted. A "the" instead of "tuh" can make all the difference in the world.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The rules are paraphrased but not quoted. A "the" instead of "tuh" can make all the difference in the world.

G

No, it is a quote, verbatim down to the formatting (notice the Bold 6).

I must have missed it. I will break out my dex tonite & study it closely.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I must have missed it. I will break out my dex tonite & study it closely.

G

I play 'Crons. I've got the Dex right here. It says that he stands back up with 3(2 or 1) wounds. it says NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING about his W stat. I've said this at least a dozen times now. Dantes reduces the W characteristic of a model, along with I and WS. The effect is applied, and remains in effect until the end of the game, but it doesn't reapply itself randomly to models. No where in the rules of dante's does it say "reapplies itself to models when x and y happen." the W characteristic of a model doesn't limit their total number of wounds, only the number they start the game with.

If you want an exact rules quote for phylactery, it reads:

Phylactery --- 15 Points

This inconspicuous charm is a powerful self-repair device, filled with tiny, spider-like creatures that swarm all over a wounded Necron Lord, re-knitting his body so that he may continue to fight.

When a Necron Lord is reduced to 0 Wounds and attempts his Self-repair roll at the start of the Necron turn, instead of using the normal rules, use the following table to see what happens.

D6 --- Result
1-3 --- The model is removed as a casualty as normal.
4 --- The Necron Lord stands up with 1 Wound.
5 --- The Necron Lord stands up with 2 Wounds.
6 --- The Necron Lord stands up with 3 Wounds.

I'm tired of making analogies for people. This really can't be any simpler. HE STANDS UP WITH x WOUNDS. IT DOESN'T CARE ABOUT HIS W STAT OR ANY OTHER CRAP THAT HAS HAPPENED. Aight?

The rules for the commander's deathmask state the model has one less wound for the remainder of the battle. 'for the remainder of the battle' is the key term & why I think the Necron Lord would lose one wound to his profile each time he gets back up. At the start of the game his profile is reduced by 1W then each time he gets back up he loses another wound since he is starting over again. If he was able to self repair twice then he'd have no wounds left at all... 3 - 3 = 0.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The rules for the commander's deathmask state the model has one less wound for the remainder of the battle. 'for the remainder of the battle' is the key term & why I think the Necron Lord would lose one wound to his profile each time he gets back up. At the start of the game his profile is reduced by 1W then each time he gets back up he loses another wound since he is starting over again. If he was able to self repair twice then he'd have no wounds left at all... 3 - 3 = 0.

G

No.

He isn't starting over. No starting over at all. This is a WBB roll. WBB models never leave the board. There is no "starting over" also, where in the rules for dante's does it say that "if the model starts over, this rule gets applied for a second time?"

People misunderstand this ability. The -W has two components. The first is that it deals a wound directly to the model. The second is that the model now has their W characteristic lowered by 1 for the remainder of the game.

Funnily enough, This doesn't randomly reapply itself. I've got no clue where in hell you've gotten that idea from. Show me, exactly where in dante's it says that the ability stacks? What you're describing would also lower the WS and I of the lord by -2 as well, as it seems that dante's is having additional -1w thrown in. Nowhere in dante's does it say that this ability effects any kind of healing or wound gain. It doesn't say that anywhere in the ability.

BBF. Seriously. I've gone over this a hundred thousand times, as has pretty much everyone in the thread. Mask doesn't work that way. If you'de like to try to say it does to somone in a game, and get shot down, that's fine by me.