Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Black Blow Fly wrote:The rules for the commander's deathmask state the model has one less wound for the remainder of the battle. 'for the remainder of the battle' is the key term & why I think the Necron Lord would lose one wound to his profile each time he gets back up. At the start of the game his profile is reduced by 1W then each time he gets back up he loses another wound since he is starting over again. If he was able to self repair twice then he'd have no wounds left at all... 3 - 3 = 0.

G

So what happens to a lord with no phylactery or someone that rolls a 4 and the lord only gets up with 1 wound? Does he automatically die again being in a cycle of perpetual WBB'ing?

Dante, sucks.


.....just sayin.

Kevin949 wrote:
So what happens to a lord with no phylactery or someone that rolls a 4 and the lord only gets up with 1 wound? Does he automatically die again being in a cycle of perpetual WBB'ing?

No, acording to this magic stacking theory, the lord would have -1 wounds after the first try. In addition, since we're making up rules, Dante can cast the ability on all enemy units whenever the blood angels player sees the color red. Also, every time a Blood Angles IC uses an ability, and there is a game of warhammer 40k being played somewhere on earth, the blood angels player may place every model owned by any player present in the room onto the table under the control of the blood angels player.

Can you tell me what the W characteristic stands for nachturnus? Hmm I wonder is it maybe, perhaps, a slim outside chance, WOUNDS?

So with the explantion I gave how the Modifier effects the W statistic how does this not make sense?

the mask gives the W statistic -1. or to make it more understandable to you.


W-1 FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE GAME!!!.

So your wargear says stand him back up and put this number of wounds in his W column. OH WAIT!!!! there is that -1 modifier right next to that models W column. Well then the 3 wounds you get is modified by the -1. It is simple to understand. I have looked at it your way and still considered the mask to do this. How bout you try looking at it our way?

Oh and just repeating yourself does not give you burden of truth, or whatever the crap you were saying. And yes while you might have a majority, the majority has been wrong before.

lol @ power gamers.

its pretty clear the phylactery states he gets up with 3 wounds. it doesnt say anything about his starting wounds characteristic, it just says, he gets up with a number of wounds. the fact that he (normally) begins the game with 3 is merely a coincidence. youre basing your interpretation of these clashing rules upon a mistaken notion that the wounds he gets up with are related to his starting characteristic.

the mask only affects the starting characteristic, and in doing so, made it 1/3 easier to bring the lord down so he had to make a WBB check sooner than he normally would have - a pretty nice result if you ask me - which, if the necron player is lucky and rolls a '6' could mean he gets up with more wounds than he started the game with.

so, both items have a nice effect - you get your mask to make the lord a lot weaker and easier to kill off the bat, and the necrom player gets a 1/6 shot of having his lord get up with more wounds after you bring him down. thats why we pay for our wargear, to get a beneficial effect out of it - and this works... wait for it... FOR BOTH PLAYERS.

Seems like a misunderstanding of the Mask's application. If the rule is saying apply -1 to all characteristics in the profile, then this is a change to the profile that is permanent. For example:

Necron Lord Tod was:

S4 T4 I3 W3

Dante comes along, does his crazy Devil May Cry thing, and now Tod is:

S3 T3 I2 W2

That's his new profile lasting for this game.

Tod is assaulted by a ravenous Badger that the Blood Angels trained as a pet and dies. His war gear then lets him come back from the dead with 3 wounds.

You don't then take away one wound. The Mask modified the characteristics of the character yes but here he's been expressly given 3 wounds. His wounds haven't be restored, which would give him 2 cause for the purposes of the game that's his profiles' stated number of wounds. These 3 new wounds have been magically bestowed upon Tod by the Wound Fairy. The effect of Dante's mask seems like it hits at the start of the game, or just before the start. After that it seems his Mask isn't a factor in play anymore. Even then, what the war gear is doing to Tod isn't a profile change it's just the Wound Fairy taking pity on him (Come on, what Necron Lord aka Zombie Lord, dies by Badger?).

Sarcasm aside, these seem like 3 wounds that magically appear on a roll of X. They have nothing to do with the Masks effects on the the Lords profile.

Execpt that the mask says the effects stay for the remainder of the game.

And to take a more light hearted side to this, if the wound fairy does take pity on the Tod, and gives it 3 wounds. Dante would appear out of now where sick his rabid badger on her/it and the mask would still deny one of the wounds! Just to teach this meddling fairy whats for and all that.

The fact that the W statistic is W-1 for the remainder of the game means anytime wounds are accounted the statistic is W-1.

So now this model who has been affected by the mask, and given some fairy magic dust to have wounds, the Characteristic is W, so whatever the W would go up to is modified by the fact that while at 0 the W characteristic is still W-1 therefore, adding three would only do this

W-1
0
3
wait for it, look at the row of numbers and the Characteristic type with the modifier!!!!!
2

so youre being intentionally ignorant.

ok, nice trolling, well played.

... aaaannnd moving along to the next deliberate-misinterpretation-for-personal-gain ymdc thread.

The Wound Fairy does work in mysterious ways.

The Mask has changed the Lord's profile. It doesn't effect everything he does though concerning his stats. When it says stays in effect the entire game, this is to say that the changes to the profile are permanent. But if we then turn around and add 3 new wounds to the Lord, we haven't changed his profile. Technically, his profile is still W2, but he's been granted 3 wounds by the war gear. Dante's masks effect IS still in play. He is W2 in profile. The War gear has just decided to be a tricky little devil and go through the back door instead of the front and get him 3 wounds.

This would degrade into the Profile Change versus Characteristic Modifier debate raging in another thread. I vote we get Tea and Snickers instead (and begin plotting how to kill the Wound Fairy and obtain immortality).

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Can you tell me what the W characteristic stands for nachturnus? Hmm I wonder is it maybe, perhaps, a slim outside chance, WOUNDS?

A wound characteristic is the little number in W on a character's stat line at the beginning of the game. As every 40k player knows, that number doesn't mean much after the first shooting phase, as models take wounds ingame, yet the number on the sheet of paper doesn't change. Strange how that works.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
So with the explantion I gave how the Modifier effects the W statistic how does this not make sense?

the mask gives the W statistic -1. or to make it more understandable to you.


W-1 FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE GAME!!!.

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the W number is the number of wounds the character starts the game with. It is easy for a model to have a number of remaining wounds different from their W stat. Examples include Doom of Mal's ability to siphon Wounds far beyond it's W number, Anything with Phylactery, and any model that has more than one wound, but has taken a wound in combat actions.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
So your wargear says stand him back up and put this number of wounds in his W column. OH WAIT!!!! there is that -1 modifier right next to that models W column. Well then the 3 wounds you get is modified by the -1. It is simple to understand. I have looked at it your way and still considered the mask to do this. How bout you try looking at it our way?

No it doesn't. You don't rewrite a character's stat sheet as you go along in game. As I said before, the W part of a character's stat line has no correlative bearing on their current ingame wounds beyond using it as a starting point. I've been giving examples of this since my first post. Wounds also don't just "come back" ever. Suggesting that a wound that somone took as part of a combat action magically undid itself is not accounted for in any of the rules. The wound still happens, however the model is able to pull on through or be repaired, or whatever the wargear says it does.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Oh and just repeating yourself does not give you burden of truth, or whatever the crap you were saying. And yes while you might have a majority, the majority has been wrong before.

Sometimes the majority is wrong, and sometimes people repeating themselves are doing so to pretend to be right.

My posting a convincing, sound argument doesn't make me infallible, but logic does. In my first post in this thread, I wrote out a long and humorous dialog of how mask would work ingame, mathhammer and all. Logically, if the Phylactery wargear says "The Necron lord gets up with 3 wounds" that means he is now able to continue the fight with three more wounds. three more wounds.

To illustrate, when a Necron WBBs, when a Carnifex regenerates, when sanguinators, they are gaining an extra, new, unspent wound. All of these effects require the model to have taken at least one unsaved wound in the first place, meaning they must have spent all of their wounds.

Wounds don't come back. The bullets didn't suddenly not hit you five minutes ago. Your opponent didn't suddenly not deal your model a wound back in turn two. Your model's carapace knit itself back together, or your little robot friends did the same, allowing you to take even further punishment. Arguing that Dante's directly effects these totally new, unspent wounds would essentially be saying that Dante's prevents models from being granted wounds.

I don't see that anywhere in dante's text. I just see it saying that it wounds one of my models and nerfs it's melee skills and inish. I do however see that Phylactery says it gives three wounds.

Kap. Like I said earlier, play the game however you want to play it. I really don't give two damns, as it's very very unlikely that I will ever play against you. That being said, if you try to pull "dante's just keeps wounding you, lawl!" on somone who is familiar with the codexes and the game, you're going to hurt feelings and ruin games. It's why I don't play my necrons as RAW, because there is a lot of crap in that codex that really just breaks things, like using mono-sriking to unspawn units, or using warriors who've not thrown a WBB save to capture objectives, and frankly I don't want to be TFG.

LordofHats wrote:The Wound Fairy does work in mysterious ways.

The Mask has changed the Lord's profile. It doesn't effect everything he does though concerning his stats. When it says stays in effect the entire game, this is to say that the changes to the profile are permanent. But if we then turn around and add 3 new wounds to the Lord, we haven't changed his profile. Technically, his profile is still W2, but he's been granted 3 wounds by the war gear. Dante's masks effect IS still in play. He is W2 in profile. The War gear has just decided to be a tricky little devil and go through the back door instead of the front and get him 3 wounds.

This would degrade into the Profile Change versus Characteristic Modifier debate raging in another thread. I vote we get Tea and Snickers instead (and begin plotting how to kill the Wound Fairy and obtain immortality).

Agreed, seeings how this wound fairy is probably a star god in disguise and stuff.

And on a more sad note I would like to call attention to the fact that while trying to (in a civil way work things out and see if there can be any good public discoarse between multiple people with opposing views ) figure this thing out we get people who like to call people names and run off and cry in a corner. Tsk Tsk.

Now on to more important things I hear this wound fairy hangs out at the local bar/pub and will do anything (like give your Monolith extra wounds) in exchange for a Pint!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

And I am only going to say this one.
Just because something in a FAQ sounds like, looks like, has an effect like something else in another codex. Does not mean you use it for all things like it. The ONLY time when you would do that is when it is exactly like what is being FAQ'd. So this rubbish about Doom's ability is garabage plain and simple. Every Codex is different for a reason and will have different rule sets for a reason.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:What does it matter anyways, if you are a BA player you attack the squad this guys is attached to, SA them and he is just removed.

And how did you get from 0 to -1 again? Applying the mask twice randomly?

I am a bit confused how you got to that statement again when I was saying if you sweeping advance you remove what ever models that are caught in sweeping advance from the game.

And to reply to that confusing statment. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am saying that the mask's effects are always there.(Until end of game) So once a model hits zero wounds (for any reason 0 is 0 model is dead pending something like this) That model still has been targeted by the mask. You all are saying that, that 1 wound that was taken away is still there. If by defenition that model still has that wound you wound not get you WWB roll. Because he still technically has that wound. he would lay around the table models trampling him in the ground until the start of the next game.

That is where I get to the 0 with the negative modifier of 1. or 0(-1). Because the mask effects are still there. Again if you say but that 1 wound has taken care of this then you wound not get the WBB because that model still technically has that 1 wound with that -1 modifier.

From now on i'll put a big ol' line to seperate things like that.

Facepalm at the statement you made.

Then apply my statement!

You're math did this:

3-1=2 Following you...
3-1-1=1 Yes...
3-1-1-1=0 O.K... I get it?
0-1= (-1)

You didn't take a wound when you were at 0!

You lose a wound aqt the start of the game.

When you get back up with 3 wounds in order to lose another wound you would have to apply the mask again - yet you are not allowed to, as you only have permission to apply it once.

In other words KP, BBF et al are trying to make you lose *2* wounds and not 1, which is 100% agaiusnt the rules.

Can the thread get locked now please?

let me ask you this, lets say there's a character with a relic blade which makes all attacks S6 (not +2 Strength), if he was hit with something that cause -1 Strength would he still strike at S6?

Yes, because you are not using his strength to resolve the attacks, you are using the strength of the relic blade.

If the "something" affects the strength characterisitic of the model, and you use a weapon that does not use your strength characteristic, then the "something" has no effect - would you expect a bolter to suddenly be S3?

Direct example - Gabriel Seth (strength 4) using Blood Reaver (strength 8). Seth modifies his strength, lets say using Furious Charge from a nearby Sanguinary Priest.

What strength does he strike at?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:What does it matter anyways, if you are a BA player you attack the squad this guys is attached to, SA them and he is just removed.

And how did you get from 0 to -1 again? Applying the mask twice randomly?

I am a bit confused how you got to that statement again when I was saying if you sweeping advance you remove what ever models that are caught in sweeping advance from the game.

And to reply to that confusing statment. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am saying that the mask's effects are always there.(Until end of game) So once a model hits zero wounds (for any reason 0 is 0 model is dead pending something like this) That model still has been targeted by the mask. You all are saying that, that 1 wound that was taken away is still there. If by defenition that model still has that wound you wound not get you WWB roll. Because he still technically has that wound. he would lay around the table models trampling him in the ground until the start of the next game.

That is where I get to the 0 with the negative modifier of 1. or 0(-1). Because the mask effects are still there. Again if you say but that 1 wound has taken care of this then you wound not get the WBB because that model still technically has that 1 wound with that -1 modifier.

From now on i'll put a big ol' line to seperate things like that.

Facepalm at the statement you made.

Then apply my statement!

You're math did this:

3-1=2 Following you...
3-1-1=1 Yes...
3-1-1-1=0 O.K... I get it?
0-1= (-1)

You didn't take a wound when you were at 0!

I am not saying you are taking a wound at zero I am saying the maskes effect is still active. that iw why I keep saying the W characteristic is W-1. Have you been ignoring that this entire time?

I will lay it out again!

Mask give -1 to WS,Init,W and A chracteristics. So all the charateristics read as such. WS-1, Init-1, W-1 and A-1.
Once you reach 0 that modifier is still there creating an effect (here let me show you it to you) ^^ right there.

They mask would modify the characteristic of the Model, by making it have 3 W. With the masks Modifier (again not using it twice) which has been on all game the W characteristic reads as such. W-1. Follow it. W-1+3W=2W. Once you reach zero the model has zero wounds. you do not get to just throw away anything that has effects on the model if there is a chance it gets up. The mask is still working even when it'd dead.



Oh and Forkbanger it is Strength 8. the weapon is what you are striking with. Now if you roll ones against him the auto hits he gets from his specail rule would be at 5. but that is niether here nor there.

KP - yet you are still applyhing the effects twice.

He loses a wound, down to 2. That is it - the mask has done its wiork.

When he gets back up you are trying to AGAIN make him lose another wound, so he has lost a total of 2 wounds frmo the mask.

The mask NEVER gives permission for you to lose 2 wounds, only 1. Therefore you have broken the rules of the Mask, meaning this cannot happen.

Under break no rule KP you are trying to break a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

forkbanger wrote:Direct example - Gabriel Seth (strength 4) using Blood Reaver (strength 8). Seth modifies his strength, lets say using Furious Charge from a nearby Sanguinary Priest.

What strength does he strike at?

S8, as that is the given strength for the Blood reavers hits, in exactly the same way as Furious Charging Rough Riders STILL hit at S5 I5

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I am not saying you are taking a wound at zero I am saying the maskes effect is still active. that iw why I keep saying the W characteristic is W-1. Have you been ignoring that this entire time?

I will lay it out again!

Mask give -1 to WS,Init,W and A chracteristics. So all the charateristics read as such. WS-1, Init-1, W-1 and A-1.
Once you reach 0 that modifier is still there creating an effect (here let me show you it to you) ^^ right there.

They mask would modify the characteristic of the Model, by making it have 3 W. With the masks Modifier (again not using it twice) which has been on all game the W characteristic reads as such. W-1. Follow it. W-1+3W=2W. Once you reach zero the model has zero wounds. you do not get to just throw away anything that has effects on the model if there is a chance it gets up. The mask is still working even when it'd dead.



Oh and Forkbanger it is Strength 8. the weapon is what you are striking with. Now if you roll ones against him the auto hits he gets from his specail rule would be at 5. but that is niether here nor there.

And when the lord gets back up the, the wound characteristic is STILL -1 (or 2, for this purpose) but the wounds he is ALLOTTED on his return are 3, completely disregarding his wound statistic at the point he rolls for WBB. So are you saying if the player rolled a 5 on WBB with phylactery that the lord would stand up with 2-1 wounds?

Basically what you are saying is the Necron Lord can have more wounds than his modified profile which is not the case due to the wording of Dante's deathmask... For the remainder of the battle. The effect is always in play.

G

nosferatu1001 wrote:

forkbanger wrote:Direct example - Gabriel Seth (strength 4) using Blood Reaver (strength 8). Seth modifies his strength, lets say using Furious Charge from a nearby Sanguinary Priest.

What strength does he strike at?

S8, as that is the given strength for the Blood reavers hits, in exactly the same way as Furious Charging Rough Riders STILL hit at S5 I5

And for the same reason, the Necron Lord stands up with 3 wounds from his Phylactry regardless of the modifier to his profile.

Kevin949 wrote:
And when the lord gets back up the, the wound characteristic is STILL -1 (or 2, for this purpose) but the wounds he is ALLOTTED on his return are 3, completely disregarding his wound statistic at the point he rolls for WBB. So are you saying if the player rolled a 5 on WBB with phylactery that the lord would stand up with 2-1 wounds?

that's exactly what he's saying.

forkbanger wrote:And for the same reason, the Necron Lord stands up with 3 wounds from his Phylactry regardless of the modifier to his profile.

Exactly.

Shut up and play the Goddamn game already.

He gets up with 3 wounds because the codex states he gets up with 3 wounds. It does not say he gets up with his maximum amount of wounds. All this crap about -1 for the rest of the game is overwritten by the explicit wording of the Nerfcron Necron Codex.

That being said however, It would seem from reading the last 3 pages of this nonsense that no-one is going to be convinced by the others arguments, so I suggest that everyone goes and takes a chill pill as it's getting too loud in here. Come back after you've painted a model* and agree to disagree.

Sheesh.

*Preferably not a Dante model or a Necron lord with Phylactery.

While this thread is going nowhere... KP... why did you get to -1?

Quite simple.

You were at 1, including the mask, then you take a wound, why would you be at -1 then...? 1-1=0! Yay math.

Neither side is going to be convinced.

This doesn't appear to be going anywhere constructive, so locking it down for now...