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I know the mask puts an IC of my opponent's choice at a gimped position and he remains that way until the end of the game but in a case where my opponent picks a Necron lord with a phylactery, which states when a 6 is rolled for WBB he stands up with 3 wounds, would that automatically be dropped back down to 2 or do I skate by thanks to a technicality?

I'd say you get back up with 3 wounds.

Death Mask states that the model has -1 wound for the remainder of the battle so no it would only have 2 wounds when it WBB.

But the Phylactery overrules this IMO, as he is given "3 wounds" by it. If the entry for Phylactery stated that he "regains his full number of wounds" or something along those lines, then yes, he would suffer -1 from Dante.

if the Death Mask rules over this then the Necron Lord only comes back on a 5+, worse than his lowly warriors? I agree with Valkyrie, anyway, how hard could it be to take the 3W Necron Lord again

EDIT
*reads the Death Masks rules*

Looking at my codex now, the EXACT wording is:

6 The Necron Lord stands up with 3 Wounds.

So, while he may only have 2 wounds on his profile because of the Death Mask, the Phylactadodad lets him return with 3 wounds.

you can easily apply both rules and they don't break each other. he gets up with 3 wounds which is then modified down by 1 (to a minimum of one). it doesn't say he gets up with 3 wounds regardless of any other modifiers or special rules.

warboss wrote:you can easily apply both rules and they don't break each other. he gets up with 3 wounds which is then modified down by 1 (to a minimum of one). it doesn't say he gets up with 3 wounds regardless of any other modifiers or special rules.

No, but Dantes Mask only applies at the beginning of the game, you can't use it half way though on what is essentially a new model!

TBH this is just a relic of the awful necron codex, Just 4+ it if you really cannot come to an agreement.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:you can easily apply both rules and they don't break each other. he gets up with 3 wounds which is then modified down by 1 (to a minimum of one). it doesn't say he gets up with 3 wounds regardless of any other modifiers or special rules.

No, but Dantes Mask only applies at the beginning of the game, you can't use it half way though on what is essentially a new model!

TBH this is just a relic of the awful necron codex, Just 4+ it if you really cannot come to an agreement.

actually, it says to choose at the start but the effect specifically applies to the model for the remainder of the game (read the entry). when you use the power, do you come back with a different character? nope. do you place a different model on the table? nope. i believe you just keep the model on the table laying down to signify it's status while quasi-dead. since the character/model stay the same and it's the same game, the effect is still on it.

So the 2W model comes back with 3W, and makes the Doom of Malantai give up its title as the only model that can get more wounds than its starting profile.

solkan wrote:So the 2W model comes back with 3W, and makes the Doom of Malantai give up its title as the only model that can get more wounds than its starting profile.

I as Blood Angels player, agrees with this. The Necron ability does not state returns with Max wounds. Simply it stands up with 3 wounds.

which you then modify by -1 since it stays in play for the "remainder of the game" since it's the same game/model/character. whether or not you're a BA player has no bearing on what the rules say.

solkan wrote:So the 2W model comes back with 3W, and makes the Doom of Malantai give up its title as the only model that can get more wounds than its starting profile.

3 wounds is normal for the lord. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

Yes that 1 wound stays gone for the whole game. But this item gives the necron lord another wound.

warboss wrote:which you then modify by -1 since it stays in play for the "remainder of the game" since it's the same game/model/character. whether or not you're a BA player has no bearing on what the rules say.

No, you would still get the full 3 Wounds. The Necron Lord would suffer the -1 Wound penalty at the start of the game until he is downed. When using the Phylactery, he is essentially given 3 Wounds by the Wargear. If the wording of the Phylactery would refer to his "starting number of wounds" instead of actually stating a set number, then he would suffer "-1 to his starting number of wounds" via the effect of Dante's Mask.

Let's do some math

Starts with 3W
Losses 1W from Dante
Losses 2W from other attacks
Gets 3W from Wargear

So that comes out to 3-1-2+3= 3

Otherwise you are giving the same model 2 Wounds from Dante's mask.

It would actually get back up with only one wound since it would be a double effect from hte mask stacking.

G

I agree with Gwar on this one.

Mask chooses one unit, and subtracts one wound from it's max total for the rest of the game. Necron codex says that it stands up (having had it's first three wounds depleted by whatever means) with three wounds.

The Necron rule is very clear. It doesn't involve "refilling" the model's wounds or anything. It literally adds three(two, or one as well) new wounds to the model's profile. The necron warrior, for the purposes of this hypothetical game has 6 (or really how ever many times you roll successes) wounds. The model is not replaced, it is not "refilled" or "regenerated" it simply gets X more wounds.

For example, a game in which mask is cast on a Lord w/ phylactery, who then continually gets rolled by enemy fire over and over. He rolls 3 successful WBB saves, and then fails a fourth. Below is the spoilerfied for shortness list of game interactions with the lord

Start the game and gets masked!:

3w-1w= 2w.

Two hits from big nasty mr. Carnifex!:

3w-1w-2w=0w.

First WBB roll: 6! The lord gets 3w!

3w-1w-2w+3w= 3w.

Lord suddenly discovers he has a second shadow, and looks up just in time to get his face smashed in by deathleaper!:

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w= 0w.

Second WBB roll: 5! The lord gets 2w!

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w+2w= 2w!

What's that rumbling? WHO BROUGHT THE MAWLOC?:

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w+2w-2w= 0w!

Third WBB roll: 4! The lord gets 1w!

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w+2w-2w+1w= 1w!

Why does that hive tyrant have four boneswords?:

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w+2w-2w+1w-1w= 0w.

Fourth and final WBB: 3. Lord's partying days are over.

3w-1w-2w+3w-3w+2w-2w+1w-1w= 0w.

In this case, the Lord had a total of nine wounds, which the tyranids eagerly nommed up in bit sized chunks. One of these wounds was dealt by Mask, at the time when the ability says it comes into play: at the beginning of the game. The Lord never actually leaves the table as a casualty, and is thus still alive for the entire game, and does no further wounds to the unit. Unless somone can argue that Mask does a wound every time a unit takes an action, uses wargear, or takes a wound, then there is no way it can prevent a necron lord from getting it's full number of phylactery wounds.

You know that your entire explaintion about how this works is great execpt for one thing. The mask Reduces the characteristic of WS, Init, Attacks and Wounds. Now to say that the mask causes a wound is improper. It says that the Model has -1 to all the stats listed. So how can a model who has 3 wounds to start lose one for the the remained of the game get that one back? The profile has been altered by the mask. Thus you cannot have more wounds then you have at the start of the game.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:You know that your entire explaintion about how this works is great execpt for one thing. The mask Reduces the characteristic of WS, Init, Attacks and Wounds. Now to say that the mask causes a wound is improper. It says that the Model has -1 to all the stats listed. So how can a model who has 3 wounds to start lose one for the the remained of the game get that one back? The profile has been altered by the mask. Thus you cannot have more wounds then you have at the start of the game.

Though well forumlated, your argument is invalid. My hair is also a bird.

WBB and Phylactery make no comment as to the Lord's wound stat. They say it stands back up +3(2 or 1) wounds. They make no mention of the "wound stat from the start of the game" or "Return the lord to it's maximum wounds" or anything like that. It just sets the lord up with X wounds.

Mask does cause a wound, immediately by reducing the number of wounds it takes to kill a model. As a bonus, it also makes it so abilities that refill wounds (Regeneration, Sanguinators, etc) cannot refill as much. WDD is not one of those abilities. WBB is more similar to Doom's lifedrain mechanic, where it can gain any number of wounds, far beyond it's given wound statline, except that WBB+Phylactery doesn't allow the lord to have anymore than 3 at any given time.

I understand how your hair being a bird can confuse you.

The Mask stats that the model for the remainder of the game has -1 WS, -1 Wound, -1 Init, and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1) for the remainder of battle.

The Phylactry says on a roll of
4 the necron lord stands up with 1 wound.
5 the necron lord stands up with 2 wounds.
6 the necron lord stands up with 3 wounds.

So if you look at the mask, since it says for remainder of battle, when ever you stand the model back up you reduce the number of wounds given by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I understand how your hair being a bird can confuse you.

The Mask stats that the model for the remainder of the game has -1 WS, -1 Wound, -1 Init, and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1) for the remainder of battle.

The Phylactry says on a roll of
4 the necron lord stands up with 1 wound.
5 the necron lord stands up with 2 wounds.
6 the necron lord stands up with 3 wounds.

So if you look at the mask, since it says for remainder of battle, when ever you stand the model back up you reduce the number of wounds given by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Why should it stand back up with one wound, does the mask specify that? I am assuming yes, though you never know.

The wargear stands him up with a completely different set of wounds imagine if it went on, and you could get 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 wounds! That way you can see where we're coming from, it does not stand him up with his original wounds, though three new wounds, which say "feth off" to Dante's mask.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I understand how your hair being a bird can confuse you.

The Mask stats that the model for the remainder of the game has -1 WS, -1 Wound, -1 Init, and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1) for the remainder of battle.

The Phylactry says on a roll of
4 the necron lord stands up with 1 wound.
5 the necron lord stands up with 2 wounds.
6 the necron lord stands up with 3 wounds.

So if you look at the mask, since it says for remainder of battle, when ever you stand the model back up you reduce the number of wounds given by 1 to a minimum of 1.

No, It doesn't. Where in Dante's does it say "Reduces all future gains of wounds for any given model by 1"? The way WBB works has nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with the model's wound statistic. If it did, then there would have to be rules dictating how it works on models with more than one wound, which it does not. Phylactery simply changes the way WBB works, by granting extra wounds.

If, say, it were possible to take a phylactery on an individual wraith, even though the wraith only starts with one wound at the start of the game and on it's statline, acording to the wording of Phylactery, it would stand up with 3, regardless of what hurt it.

On the same note, Doom of Mal is a perfect example that a model's total wounds can exceed the number of wounds listed on it's statline at the begining of the game. So even IF a necron lords W statistic on his statline is reduced to 2, he still gets 3 wounds when rolling a 6 on a d6 for phylactery.

Dante's does not do anything to this, as the text is inarguable: The unit, which hasn't left play, stops being tipped over, and now has 3 more wounds to fight with. Nowhere in WBB does it make any mention of any kind to that unit's starting wounds. Phylactery doesn't either. They're on page 13 and 15 of the 'Crons codex if you'de like to check.

Honestly, I'm confused as to why people think -1W is any different than any other attack that simply does a wound to a target. Unless the rules for Mask (which they don't btw), explicitly state "...and the model can never ever, for any reason what so ever, not even for a milion dollars, never ever ever exceed it's modified W statistic..." Then arguing that a lord's healing by phylactery, or anyone else's healing for that matter, is altered by this ability is simply bad logic.

Well you are actually thinking of it wrong. The Phalactry does not say more wounds, does not say additional wounds, does not say it gains the wounds. It states that it has the wounds. Since the mask says it has -1 wound for remainder of game, and the Plalactry says it has X wounds. Dante's mask would effect that number.

And since when does -1 wound equal taking a wound. It modifies the characteristic.

And I am only going to say this one.
Just because something in a FAQ sounds like, looks like, has an effect like something else in another codex. Does not mean you use it for all things like it. The ONLY time when you would do that is when it is exactly like what is being FAQ'd. So this rubbish about Doom's ability is garabage plain and simple. Every Codex is different for a reason and will have different rule sets for a reason.

Yes.

Though his wound characteristic is not being brought up with phylactery.

Something similar? Yes.

He stands up with three. Simple as that.

The Necfron stands up with 3 wounds, as this is the more specific rule.

Death mask is overidden by themore specific rule for Phylactory.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Well you are actually thinking of it wrong. The Phalactry does not say more wounds, does not say additional wounds, does not say it gains the wounds. It states that it has the wounds. Since the mask says it has -1 wound for remainder of game, and the Plalactry says it has X wounds. Dante's mask would effect that number.

And since when does -1 wound equal taking a wound. It modifies the characteristic.

And I am only going to say this one.
Just because something in a FAQ sounds like, looks like, has an effect like something else in another codex. Does not mean you use it for all things like it. The ONLY time when you would do that is when it is exactly like what is being FAQ'd. So this rubbish about Doom's ability is garabage plain and simple. Every Codex is different for a reason and will have different rule sets for a reason.

It is a very Easy concept.

The Mask does a -1 W to the Necron Lords stat line for "the remainder of the game", whilst the Phylactery says that when the lord rolls a 6 on a d6 on a WBB roll, he stands up with 3 wounds. It has NOTHING to do with his stat line. He simply just stands up and has 3 wounds. They are there. It never takes into account the lords stat line in the wording. So Dante's mask doing -1 W to to the lords stat line has no precedence, because the stat line is NEVER called into play.

So, whoever killed Dante with their lord wins.

The mask says that the model has -1 wound. So new wounds that are being part of the model are reduced by one.

And the phylactery is not more specific. The Mask says the model has -1 wound.

You stand the model up with 3 wounds the mask effects the number of wounds the model has.

The model is effected by the mask just as much as the wounds and other stats are. If you reset something or just give it a characteristic of x the mask chages that to a characteristic of x-1.

Except it doesnt; you have ALREADY fulfilled the -1 wound requirement of the mask by the time Pyhlactory kicks in.

You cannot then apply the Mask again, as you would be taking 2 wounds away when the mask only gives you permission to remove 1

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:The mask says that the model has -1 wound. So new wounds that are being part of the model are reduced by one.

And the phylactery is not more specific. The Mask says the model has -1 wound.

You stand the model up with 3 wounds the mask effects the number of wounds the model has.

The model is effected by the mask just as much as the wounds and other stats are. If you reset something or just give it a characteristic of x the mask chages that to a characteristic of x-1.

No.
The phylacrety is quite clearly more specific. It also over-rides the mask.

Having -1 wound is one thing.

Standing up with three wounds is another.