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I think a slann was already pretty popular, defenstrator! Although it will probably be a "Don't leave home without it" item now!

I'm not sure what you're saying, Luthon? HE have unlimited duplicate specials and rares, the only restriction is the percentages (25% max for special, 25% max for rare). So that's GOOD! You can actually take more than before!

HE infantry aren't so bad with the boost to blocks, imho. Not great... but if they were great, HE might be a little over the top. As it is, they're limited by that, but it's a needed restriction, imho. You'd get even more complaints than the one in my sig otherwise

They're an elite army, and fragile, and I think they're reasonably well balanced from glancing at the rules. I'm a little concerned about the Book of Hoeth, though!!

Yea I finally read what the duplicate rule is and it really doesn't affect HE. I'm just glad that both of my armies got good FAQs!

Why are Skink mixed units worse now?

I suppose it's inaccurate for me to say they're worse. What I meant was "compared to the gains by all other comperable units, their gains are minimal". They're still T2 with a 6+ ward, the krox don't get to stomp, you'll get few if any supporting attacks in, and ranks are checked after combat not before, so you'll often not have much rank bonus because so many skinks can and will die (even humans are hitting and wounding you on 3s...). Same problem spear saurus face these days; everyone else got better, you didn't change much. I wonder though, if you run a horde of skinks/kroxxies, do the skinks BEHIND the kroxes make supporting attacks? That's a long-armed skink

One thing I forgot to mention for saurus, actually, is that the step up rule did them quite a favour. At I1, they weren't going before anyone that's not ASL. Now they still all get to attack. I'm very seriously considering popping all the arms off my spear saurus and going over to HW/shield. Trading 4 attacks per for 3 while gaining a 6+ ward and a point each, it's MUCH more appealing than it was last edition; they're almost as tough as basic troops get, especially for the points.

Here's another point about empire: after a month of nervous waiting, they did NOT faq warrior priests and arch lectors coughing up dispel dice just for showing up. This means that empire armies with the standard pope wagon with another priest in their somewhere, plus the rod of power, can reliably come up with 5 extra dispel dice per turn, and that means they're probably the best magic defense army in the game (this may except dwarfs, whose runelords and runesmiths do the same thing and were also not faq'd).

RiTides wrote:the only restriction is the percentages (25% max for special, 25% max for rare).

Special are 50% max, not 25.

I'm very shocked that Dark Elves didn't get the Elite Army rule that High Elves did.

Are they not just as Elite???

Btw Lothern Sea Guard have become the most cost effective unit in the game. 13 ppm thereabouts is sick for what they do.
I'm loving that Elite Army rule too, but for an army that is so good, are their only weaknesses high ppm and low numbers???

I'm thinking basic ancient stegs are going to be redonculous now. 4d6 poisoned stand and shoot shots are going to be OP. not to mention that they get d6+1 impact hits now with d6 thunderstop hits. that's up to 13 auto str 6 HITS. then the stegs normal hits. I'll definately be fielding as many as I can from now on.

BTW what is elite army?

Normally armies are limited in the number of identical units they are allowed to field from the Special, and Rare types.

Armies that have the Elite Army rule ignore this restriction, supposedly High Elves have this rule. However I haven't been able to find it yet. . .

Bottom of the first column on page one continues onto the second column also of page one on the errata.

Re:

Elite Army:

The High Elves are few in number, but their armies are trained and equipped to standards so high that they are the envy of all races. To represent this, they have no limit to duplicate choices of their special and rare troops.


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But is that just for troops or is it also the case for bolt throwers, cavalry etc???

I am really loveing where the Empire is heading. I may not have enough cannons, mortars, or volley guns but Im still very satisfied with the stout magic defense Im going to end up with.

If there ever was an army that got a buff to shooting it was Empire. Not that they needed it.

The only problem I can see is that with the rise of gunline armies, comes the problem of beating them.

If this is the case, the meta choice to beat them will be an army that has really good armour or a lot of wounds or a lot of guys. Oh, and they have to be quick.

So that would be Chaos, Ogres and Skaven. And out of those three I'd take Skaven, but for sheer brutality I'd take Ogres.

radiohazard wrote:If there ever was an army that got a buff to shooting it was Empire. Not that they needed it.

The only problem I can see is that with the rise of gunline armies, comes the problem of beating them.

If this is the case, the meta choice to beat them will be an army that has really good armour or a lot of wounds or a lot of guys. Oh, and they have to be quick.

So that would be Chaos, Ogres and Skaven. And out of those three I'd take Skaven, but for sheer brutality I'd take Ogres.

you forgot engine of the gods from lizardmen. Everything has a 5+ ward save. Useful against cannons. Then we have skinks everywhere.

(Disclaimer - I've only played half a dozen games of 8th, and none with the new errata. Nevertheless, here are my thoughts.)

I'm not sure that big units of infantry are as awesome as people think. They certainly are better than they used to be, but they have a lot of weaknesses. They are very vulnerable to all of the templates flying around and to 'every model in the unit' spells. They don't generate much damage, certainly not enough to reliably deny the enemy his Steadfast-granting ranks. And they will never, ever win combat against an elite unit.

When good troops (elite infantry, knights) get into combat with Ork Boyz, Empire State troops, whatever, they get so many attacks that they kill half a dozen or more scrub every turn. Steadfast is awesome and all, but what they hell use is being stubborn if you never win combat? And since you have spent all your points to buy a few big units it's going to be difficult to find a unit to outflank the enemy.

Another thing, I'm not sure shooting is so great either. Generally speaking, infantry can get all the way across the board and into combat on turn three at the latest. This is bad for missile troops. If they enemy infantry spends a portion of its time in soft cover, due to all of the terrain you're supposed to use, well, that makes your missile troops even sadder. Warmachines are pretty good, but in my limited experience Stone Throwers aren't great due to the opponent getting armor saves, and neither are bolt throwers, due to the reduced number of turns of shooting that you get.

So what do I think works? Again, a disclaimer, since this is coming from a guy who: 1) hasn't played many games, and; 2) plays Dark Elves.

I think scouts are awesome. They can show up almost anywhere, march around at high speed, and kill warmachines and shooty units with ease.

I think elite infantry works. They suffer against missile fire and other elites due to low numbers, but they absolutely mulch basic troops.

I think elite heavy cavalry works. If they're buffed up by heroes and get the charge, a unit of Cold One Knights or Dragon Princes (or Empire inner circle, etc.) can kill 15-20 infantry in the first round. Once the enemy is crippled, they can grind down the peons over the next few rounds until rank bonus is gone.

I think magic is pretty good. If you have 4 levels of wizard in one form or another, that's about all you need to get a spell off every other turn and kill some dudes. Sadly, the magic system is awful, like, really, really awful, since it's 'balanced' in the same way that Skaven are balanced - two thirds of the time you annihilate the other guy, one third of the time you annihilate yourself. Whatever.

I think combined arms works. Since combat can be a grind and shooting is unreliable, the key seems to be to concentrate your missile fire and magic on a few key enemy units. Once those units are reduced enough, you can charge in your good troops and hopefully beat the enemy in one round, while your stubborn blocks of infantry fix the rest of the enemy in place.

So, how does that translate into 'what army is the best?' Or, since I think player skill is way, way more important than army books, the question should be: 'What army is the easiest for an average player to beat another average player with?'

I think that combined arms armies are the best, especially Empire. High and Dark Elves are good combined armies too, but the Empire has cheaper troops, and therefore more of them. If you have lots of stuff you can make more mistakes and get away with them, since it's okay to lose a unit or two if those units cost 150 points.

Lizardmen should also be good, since they have some flexibility in their army list. Warriors of Chaos should be good, too, since althought they only have one good trick (crush your opponent with really good infantry) it's a very good trick to have in 8th edition.

Skaven and Orks I'm less sold on. Sure, they have lots of stuff, but it all sucks in combat and can get chopped to pieces in short order. Not that they're bad armies, not by any means, but they're not overwhelmingly awesome.

Ogres and Wood Elves and Tomb Kings, hmm, they good be good, could be bad. I think Wood Elves will be good, since they have really good scouts and fighty skirmishers, and they can combine Spirits and Archers into effective teams. I have the suspicion that Orges will still be terrible, and that Tomb Kings will die instantly in combat, but who knows?

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. Just play some games and answer the question yourself, you damn kids!

I've played a couple dozen games of 8th and from my experience:

Large units are very good, they beat elite units down eventually through attrition. This is what makes Skaven dangerous.
Elite units have been hit with the nerf hammer really badly. The step up rule, sheer amount of bodies and stubborn make elite units less effective at chewing through basic infantry.
Shooting is awesome and as a DE player, you should know that you get more shots per model than any other army.
In regards to which armies are good:

Skaven are the new Daemons.
Empire and Dwarfs have the most obscene firepower of any army.
Ogres are awesome now. My regular opponent is an ogre player and he is undefeated in 8th ed. He has beaten every other army at 2k. The sheer amount of attacks and the speed they bring the pain at is crazy.
HE are my army of choice. They have few army restrictions and are the epitome of the warrior. Their only weaknesses are high points cost, low model count and low toughness, but for all of this they have the most versatile troops, much more so than any other army.
Lizzies are amazingly good. Take a Slaan and don't get it killed and you may win. Stegadon are also scary good with their huge amount of potential attacks.
Orcs got a good boost too.

Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, VC and Brets all took hits. As a Wood Elf player, they can't do much against any other army. They need a new book, they are that boned. Tomb Kings are the next book, so they'll get good soon. VC can be awesome IMO, they need a new build to be great again. Brets suck due to the nerf to cav. Cav just can't break units.

All I can advise is get moar games. All will become clear.

I still have to argue the point with the WE's. I've now played 7 games and only lost one to Skaven at 2250 pts.
I've beaten the following

DE: twice 2000 pts
Dwarves: Once 2250pts
VC: Once 2000pts
Orcs and Gobbos: Twice 1500 pts
Lizardmen: Once 2250 pts

Although all those armies have gotten better Im still basically faceing the same builds, plus the lore of life is amazing. I lost to skaven due to the shear numbers I faced and storm banner. Perhaps the WE players in your area don't know how to play them properly? I've noticed Dyrads have gotten hella better and Im now running two biggish units to support my treemen and treekin. The only problem is I now need more.


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I still have to argue the point with the WE's. I've now played 7 games and only lost one to Skaven at 2250 pts.
I've beaten the following

DE: twice 2000 pts
Dwarves: Once 2250pts
VC: Once 2000pts
Orcs and Gobbos: Twice 1500 pts
Lizardmen: Once 2250 pts

Although all those armies have gotten better Im still basically faceing the same builds, plus the lore of life is amazing. I lost to skaven due to the shear numbers I faced and storm banner. Perhaps the WE players in your area don't know how to play them properly? I've noticed Dyrads have gotten hella better and Im now running two biggish units to support my treemen and treekin. The only problem is I now need more.

Ahhhh, that might be our problem. We don't run treekin. You say Dryads got good???

I've played 9 games of 8th now at 2,000 points with Vampire Counts and... won all nine of them. Vs High Elves twice, Lizardmen twice, Empire twice, Dark Elves twice, and Ogre Kingdoms.

Using the following list.


Vampire Lord

Magic Level 4, Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Crown of the Damned, Nightshroud, Infinite Hatred, Sword of Hero Slaying

410

Wight King, Battle Standard Bearer

100

Necromancer

Invocation of Nehek, Vanhel’s Danse Macabre, Dispel Scroll

95

Vampire

Nightmare, Helm of Commandment, Master of the Black Arts

203

30 Skeletons Full Command, War Banner

260

30 Skeletons Full Command

260

Corpse Cart, Unholy Lodestone

100

20 Grave Guard with Great Weapons, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows

311

5 Wraiths, Banshee

275

1999 Points.



Lore of the Vampires remains very strong. Wraiths are great. Sword of Hero Slaying is brutally effective.

Everyone at my FLGS is bitching about Vampires now...

There's no doubt VC took a hit, but they are still powerful. They just can't win by outnumbering now, they have to find another way. Lots of cheap necros with raise dead and a combat vampire might go well.

OK, something I don't get.

Do the WEs have to roll for their forests and take negative effects? The terrain rules seem to suggest so; there's no scope for a normal wood or forest except by rolling for it.

If so, that's a nasty hit.

Yes, we do! So, my all-tree army will sometimes get eaten by their kin

Wood elves are still competitive, imho. I played a game yesterday against WoC and won soundly (albiet against a new player). I'm not sure what he could have done differently. With the exception of his knights, all of my units (dryads, treekin, and treeman) were better in combat than his.

His marauders didn't have the numbers to withstand the 18 hits and 3 stomps at str 5 that the treekin put out.

His warriors didn't have the numbers to survive taking on the dryads, who were striking first.

His other warriors couldn't handle at treeman... and I even forgot to use thunderstomp!

His knights with magical attacks did chew up and spit out my treeman ancient, but died to sheer numbers of attacks and a flank charge from dryads.

Overall, some of our units did get a lot better! Killing stuff still = win, and that's why I see our units, as well as units like Chaos Knights that people are predicting the demise of, still doing very well. Initiative 6 dryads (with 2 attacks), treekin getting full attacks from the second rank plus stomp, and treemen getting thunderstomp, are all huge!

For the elf side, firing in two ranks is sweet for glade guard, too!

Dyrads are good because of their high int and muiltiple attacks. It also helps haveing tou and str 4. I actually enjoy running these guys in large units, our arrows arent quite as effecient as they were before with biger blocks of infantry running around. Wardancers are still pretty good but are best suited in the support role. I tried a lord on a great eagle the other day and that worked really well.

I find it odd that both on here and on BoLS that WoC have been ranked tier one. Its quite possibly because I know little to nothing about fantasy, but from all the forums and army books I've read lately, it just seems to me like they'd get torn apart from gun lines.

I'm mainly curious because I'm torn between High Elves and Chaos. High Elves seem to be amazing at magic, and would tear people apart with always striking first and most likely re-rolling to hit on everyone. Chaos on the other hand seem like they too could be beasts in combat, but that seems like about it. I do however love the models, and already have conversion ideas in mind.

So to sum it all up, why exactly are WoC ranked so high, and what makes them good?

Jamora wrote:I find it odd that both on here and on BoLS that WoC have been ranked tier one. Its quite possibly because I know little to nothing about fantasy, but from all the forums and army books I've read lately, it just seems to me like they'd get torn apart from gun lines.

I'm mainly curious because I'm torn between High Elves and Chaos. High Elves seem to be amazing at magic, and would tear people apart with always striking first and most likely re-rolling to hit on everyone. Chaos on the other hand seem like they too could be beasts in combat, but that seems like about it. I do however love the models, and already have conversion ideas in mind.

So to sum it all up, why exactly are WoC ranked so high, and what makes them good?

Because once WoC hit a gunline it will fall apart.

Casper wrote:

Jamora wrote:I find it odd that both on here and on BoLS that WoC have been ranked tier one. Its quite possibly because I know little to nothing about fantasy, but from all the forums and army books I've read lately, it just seems to me like they'd get torn apart from gun lines.

I'm mainly curious because I'm torn between High Elves and Chaos. High Elves seem to be amazing at magic, and would tear people apart with always striking first and most likely re-rolling to hit on everyone. Chaos on the other hand seem like they too could be beasts in combat, but that seems like about it. I do however love the models, and already have conversion ideas in mind.

So to sum it all up, why exactly are WoC ranked so high, and what makes them good?

Because once WoC hit a gunline it will fall apart.

I'm a WoC player and from my experience so far has been that there is not enough left to take the gunline out.

Casper wrote:Because if WoC hit a gunline it will fall apart.

Fixed for ya


So have O&G really benefited from the rules?

I know, and it's actually making me much less tempted to start WoC... whereas before I was deadset on doing so. This has happened to me before! Now I'm leaning towards being content with my tree army being finally "finished", and saving/putting my extra money elsewhere . Although next on the list to buy is definitely a Games Day ticket!

O&G did really benefit from the rules, and are actually viable again! They have great magic defense, and lots of bodies, and can put out a lot of war machines, too. I also heard that my favorite unit in the game, squig hoppers, are good again

Squigs ftw!!!

Dwarves and gobbos get a boost
Maybe I can finally beat my daughter's Woodies.

Would it be too cheesy to get a stack of artillary for the Dwarves but not upgrade her army with Treemen and more Dryads?

cheers, Chibi "Beaten by a Girl" Bodge-Battle

Lol, Chibi!

I don't think it'd be too bad ... if it got out of hand, you could always upgrade hers later .

Mwahahhaa.... I can't decide if that's the kind of father I'll be (eventually!) or not. It's cool that your daughter plays warhammer at all, though!!!

I have every intention to get my future children into warhammer and take control of the house!!!

BUAHAHHAHAAH