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Honestly, I'd say Lizardmen aren't top tier, mainly because Slann are so damn expensive. Stegadons are as well, and theyre a beast unit. Personally, Dark Elves rank much higher for me, what with Power of Darkness and Black Guard being able to horde. I think Druchii Magic is still very very strong, and the only seemingly obvious "nerf" they got was with Assassins.

Good, as aside from a gunpowder based unit, goblins are by far my favorite (gobbos only though... dunno, Orcs in WFB don't interest me like Orks in 40k).

why would you horde blackguard.... you know you can only field a maximum of 20 in a unit and that only gives you one rank and like 6 extra attacks total...

Sorry I meant Black Guard Death Star, I meant to type Corsair hordes, apologies!

Corsairs are still not that good imo. I play DE's and would much rather have a hoarde of spearmen and use the extra points some place else. I've found Witch Elves with a cauldron are quite effective and a better choice fothe same amount of points, especially with a BSB and the asf banner.

I've had quite a few games against a lot of armies with the new rules now. Playing as Vampire Counts every time.

Just a guess as to their strength:

Skaven: Top tier, very strong shooting, magic and hellpit abominations taking on armies alone. Steadfast benefits them inordinately.
Empire: Top tier. The amount of war machines and deadly shooting this army can take is silly. Empire Gunlines are frightening. Very strong magic defence.

Lizardmen: High tier. Slaan are overwhelmingly strong with Lore of Life. Step up benefits their low initiative.
Daemons of Chaos: High tier. Their magic no longer destroys armies on turn 1. Their list is still crazy strong. Flamers got BETTER.
Vampire Counts: High tier. Lore of the Vampires is still one of the best lores and they can still dominate a magic phase. Step up benefits a lot of their units, especially Grave Guard.
Dark Elves: High tier. Lost a lot with step up, kept a devastating magic phase and shooting phase.

Orcs and Goblins: Middle tier. Gained a lot from the newfound effectiveness of Horde infantry. Animosity still sucks.
Tomb Kings: Middle tier. FAQ helped them greatly. They can use ALL their dice on dispelling remains in play or bound spells. Their magic scales with points unlike all others.
Warriors of Chaos: Middle tier. Their big blocks of infantry are much scarier. Marauders with great weapons are underpriced and deadly. Still lacking shooting and vulnerable to shooting.
High Elves: Middle tier. Their dispelling is game changing and they gained Hatred vs almost everything with the new Always Strike First. Step up hurts.
Dwarfs: Middle tier. They can actually get the charge now. Shooting is better. Still slow, but step up helps. Magic defence may be good but they can't take advantage of the new lores.
Ogre Kingdoms: Middle tier. Ogres in Horde are close to unstoppable. Very fast army. Much improved magic. Still vulnerable to shooting.

Beastmen: Low tier. A bit lacking across the board.
Brettonia: Low tier. Cavalry are much reduced in effectiveness. Everyone who built a peasant/trebuchet based army will be okay though.
Wood Elves: Low tier. Step up and skirmisher rules cripple them.

That list is ok, though I would put lizardmen and beastmen up one...

I find it amusing how my high elves still always strike first AND benefit from the equivilent of 'eternal hatred' now. I honestly don't see what dark elves have over them now....i mean sure dark elf magic is still strong but our casting and dispelling is now stronger as well and we have less risk of blowing ourselves away on the nasty nasty miscast table. with always strikes first and rerolling misses against their T3 army i can see them us doing them a world of hurt.

So... Yeah about those Wood Elves.

Well, all I can say is.

Every single one of our melee units now sucks, due to the loose formation (minor annoyance) and then Steadfast. Which hey! look....everyone gets to be stubborn against our rank 0 units. It doesn't even matter if you take 3 Treemen, a squad of a spearmen can beat it in static Combat Res and they roll at their flat leadership until you wipe them out or run away.

Movement took a hit for us, given the forest rules (with the magic forests some of the rules you ignore as wood elves ignore all dangerous terrain rolls in woods) along with the Loose Formation.

The shooting hasn't changed anymore than everyone elses per-say, Waywatchers can march and shoot now but that's really all that really changed.

Magic..well the magic phase was really never the Wood elves high point, now it's just really quite sad. Granted you can try a lvl 4 spellweaver to get access to the Lore of Life but that's really all you can do.

So, In short. They need a new book of love.


Other notes, High elves look extremely nasty. (from a Wood elf point of view)

Teclis>ignores miscasts period, you can hope for him to roll a 3 or less total on the dice...but beyond that, you are mostly toast.

Did anyone notice the fact you can field 5 repeater bolt throwers at 2,000 points? That's 30 BS 4 shots a round, of your units are very much dead.


Funny enough my other army is Brets...so it's a great thing isn't it?...I mean I like the fact they fixed some really glaring issues with 7th.. but they more or less punked the WE, and Brets into the 7th ed. ogre Kingdoms.

I really don't know... I'll be trying to get another game in tonight, but dam if dryads/treekin/treemen aren't killy now! They own!! Yes, large blocks hurt us (like always) but we sure can kill stuff with our fighty units.

I'm also not so sure that Brets are in terrible shape- I saw a game of 8th ed where they wiped the opposing lizardmen army off the board.

These are all friendly games/builds I'm referring to- but I don't see these two armies as quite so low as people are making them out to be. Getting access to lore of life/beasts with a level 4 spellsinger makes woodie magic nothing to sneeze at, along with the wand of wych elm on the caster and a cluster of radiants in the list somewhere. Combat units are good (although, imho, wildriders and wardancers aren't attractive options anymore) and shooting is good as always, even a bit better.

It's not all gloom and doom for us tree dwellers

meh i got a new strat against treemen....

Replace all my hand weapons with a book of matches....

How you feel now RiTides?!?! mauahhahaha

Wood Elves are still darn good at higher point levels. Just have to tweak what you run like all the other armies. I'm still going to play them as a 2250 pt or higher army. At lower points I've ran into trouble. For my lower point games I'm going to go High Elves (yeah, yeah, I'm all about the Elves, I know). My third army will not be Elves however but Beastmen (love their chariots).

ShivanAngel wrote:meh i got a new strat against treemen....

Replace all my hand weapons with a book of matches....

How you feel now RiTides?!?! mauahhahaha

Boo! Hiss!!

I've had good luck with them at low point levels so far. You can take a treeman ancient and a treeman for under 2000 point games, unlike before, which is pretty nasty imho!