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I am considering getting into Warhammer, but don't want to play an army that will put me at a disadvantage, so like the title says,

Now that the pdfs are up, what are the top tiered armies in 8th edition?

My own personal opinion. This cannot be accurately said till hundred if not thousands of games at tourny level are played but ill give it a try.

Top tier
Skaven, Lizards, Warriors of chaos

Skaven can field huge units of stubborn, leadership 10 tarpit units that cost around 100 points. Strong magic and shooting, no more guessing for their huge array of weapons.

Lizards- Undeniably have the strongest magic out of all the armies, Will be tough to deal with them almost always having 12 power dice a turn. High toughness, decently armored troups.

Warrior- Can field large numbers of very nasty infantry. Fairly strong magic

High
Daemons, Dwarves, Empire, Dark Elves, High Elves

Daemons- Not the powerhouses they once were, but will still be a decent contender imo.

Dwarves- The thing that punished them the most (being unable to charge if your opponent was good), T4 and not losing attackers from being hit first is amazing. No more guessing or partials, the got nasty.

Empire- Can field large units of troops and war machines, great all around

Dark elves- Took a slight nerf with being able to be hit back and what not, still a strong army in every phase of the game.

High elves- Buffed in that they will get to reroll misses... a lot. Very versatile in every phase.

Middle
Ogres, Orcs, VC, Beastmen

Ogres- Got stronger in the fact that they can now field units in larger blocks and still get all their attacks. Can no longer hide behind gnoblars tho, Good charging and decent magic.

Orcs- Took a slight buff from this edition as fielding huge numbers of troops is a good tactic. Also the fact that their lords and hero's are pretty cheap they benefit a lot from the percentages.

VC- These guys took a huge hit with the fear and terror not autobreaking. Also their magic got toned down a bit. Still a decent army, but no where near the powerhouse they once were.

Beastmen- Got a little better with the ability to field big blocks of troups, still lacking in the shooting and magic phases.


Low
Tomb Kings, Woodies, bretts

Tomb Kings- The incantations are going to be really really easy to dispell since we get to add our caster level to dispelling, but they dont get to add it to their invokes means they will be getting off a lot less magic, No more autobreaking really really hurt them.

Woodies- new skirmishing rules and evil forests.... dont need to say more.

Bretts- With the huge nerfs to cavalry, i just dont see them being nearly as strong, as its really easy to tarpit huge blocks of knights.

Whooo, you've put WoC at the top, and I'm starting them!

Noooooo, you've put Woodies at the bottom, and I currently play them!

I'm not so sure about this list, though. Why is WoC so high? And Lizzies (just the free power dice slann?) although I might agree about that after seeing some games.

One thing I think you're dead on about is skaven. Good god, they're SCARY now!

Well imagin that they roll say a 3 and a 3.

With a properly kitted slann they will have 12 power dice to your 3 dispell dice.... He WILL get spells off, and with how dangerous magic is in 8th...

One thing about the top tier armies i picked is that they either completely dominate one or two phases of the game, and do really well in others. Or the do extremely well in all phases of the game.

Warriors of chaos are sick in close combat, and their magic is nothing to sneeze at, they just lack shooting. Also the fact that maruaders are cheep and fieldable in big troops means they get to take advantage of stubborn a lot.

Nice analysis! Although for wood elves, I believe the special terrain effects/rules are optional- if so, they'd obviously rather not use them

Hey guys! Don't forget to add your Overviews to the thread I'm trying to get going for new fantasy players!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300823.page

ShivanAngel wrote:Well imagin that they roll say a 3 and a 3.

With a properly kitted slann they will have 12 power dice to your 3 dispell dice.... He WILL get spells off, and with how dangerous magic is in 8th...

One thing about the top tier armies i picked is that they either completely dominate one or two phases of the game, and do really well in others. Or the do extremely well in all phases of the game.

Warriors of chaos are sick in close combat, and their magic is nothing to sneeze at, they just lack shooting. Also the fact that maruaders are cheep and fieldable in big troops means they get to take advantage of stubborn a lot.

How will they magically obtain 12 PD from 3?

__________________________________________________

Here Is What I Think:

TOP TIER

#1 - Empire - The amount of warmachines, cheap troops, and Magic/Magic Def they can put out there is #1. WP still give the +1 DD. Meaning with 4 of those and the Rod of Power he will always out-dice you in Magic.

#2 - Dwarfs - 3 Cannons, 3 Grudge Throwers, 6 Bolt Throwers, and 2 Organ Guns all upgraded with runes plus rune priests giving magic def and tough troops castleing on a stubborn 9 will break alot of armies.

#3 - Skaven - Cheapest Troops + Ld 10 Stubborn + Rat Ogres for hitting Hard + Storm Banner + Great Magic + Decent if not great shooting = Win

#4 - Dark Elves - The only army that can field a nearly never ending magic phase, and the get access to 4 of the BRB Magic Lores However their standing can easily be pushed back into mid tier with some decent magic defence

#5 - WoC - Can Field a large amount of very nasty troops, and magic is strong. Hellcannon is so great now (THUNDERSTOMP!)

HIGH MID TIER

#6-8 - Lizzies - I hear their magic and combat are very good, but the Magic Defence that Empire + Dwarfs (and others too) put out knocks them down to mid tier. Without the magic backup they can have a tough time. Plus they will be taking shots in the face

#6-8 - Daemons - Have been knocked back quite a bit, but are still viable because of the strong troops and great magic (Core Wizards!). Tzeench and Nurgle are not very viable anymore IMO without a mix of other gods.

#6-8 - High Elves - Their Arcane Selection is as incredible as ever, and they can hit harder now with ASF+Initiative Higher

LOW MID TIER

#9-12 - Ogres - Got much much much much much much better. Impact + Stomp + Ranks gives them huge bonuses. Plus their magic is pretty good now. Still not a powerhouse, but MUCH better. They used to be the worst army!

#9-12 - O&G - Got buffs because of their cheap troops and characters. Magic is still a bit weak but a wolf rider unit with 3+ Goblin Big bosses in the front will probably be a common sight, and quite powerful

#9-12 - VC - Took a big hit from less magic and the fear nerf. Still can be pretty good though. Double Varghulfs will be common now that they get thunderstomp. Very nasty

#9-12 - Beastmen - Everything got half better and half worse. Your army will need to specialize in magic + monsters or hammer + anvil, but I cant tell how it will work.

#9-12 - TK - People are saying they are going to be really bad, but I think they'll be ok. Magic is now however many dice you wanted to use plus 2 more (3 for high priest) free, so I think it will get off pretty easily. Fear is gone for autobreak but Skullapults got better. I think TK will generally work in the same way they did before.

SAD

SAD - WE - Everything here got nerfed, skirmishers, shooting somewhat due to all the cover, their magic isnt so good. Tree army may work, but it will be hard no matter what you do.

SAD - Bretts - Nerfed Calvary, pretty much all that Bretts had or have. Cant really say much here.

They will have 12 power dice cause slann get an ability that let them roll an extra dice for each spell they try to cast that DOES NOT count towards the maximum dice pool.

I thought it says in the errata that the Slann ability does count toward the dice pool, did I misread that?

Here is one thing I am not 100% clear on:

Your 12 dice max power dice pool. Is that only at any given time, or can you only have access to 12 dice over the course of your magic phase (such as if you rolled 8 dice, can the slann only add a dice to four spells, or would their fifth also receive this?)

Im pretty sure that that rule states they cant use more then 6 dice to try to cast a spell.

You cannot have more then 12 dice at any one time I THINK, So if you have ways of generating power dice, then use them after you have spent some.

zeekill wrote:
#9-12 - TK - People are saying they are going to be really bad, but I think they'll be ok. Magic is now however many dice you wanted to use plus 2 more (3 for high priest) free, so I think it will get off pretty easily. Fear is gone for autobreak but Skullapults got better. I think TK will generally work in the same way they did before.

Incorrect, we roll 2 dice for priests and 3 dice for high priests. Nothing more, nothing less.

The good: Our magic phase is very reliable. We only need the power dice to dispel RiP annoyances, but otherwise don't really care how many dice we get for power... because we don't use em.

The bad: The enemy can easily dispel any of our incantations with tossing an equal amount of dice at it because their wizards can add their level to their dispels, but we don't add our level to the spell being cast.

The other bad: If you don't have a lot of priests, you'll never get spells off.

The potentially good: If you do have a lot of priests then no one, not even fat bearded midgets, will be able to stop all of your spells.


In small points games, TK are gonna be hurting without magic.
In larger games, nothing is going to stop the incantations... Even if we gave you 6 DD a turn.

I totally agree on Skaven.
Lizzies shouldn't be that high, but are due to the frackin uberness that is the Slann - best casters in the game. Lose your slann, lose the game.
Chaos aren't that good, Dwarves and Empire are tons better.
Ogres are high mid tier. They are beastly in a veteran players hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooooo... Would the Slaanesh Ld daemon bomb army reduce the ld of units even if they were stubborn???

radiohazard wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooooo... Would the Slaanesh Ld daemon bomb army reduce the ld of units even if they were stubborn???

Yes, as it reduces the base leadership and is not a modifyer like combat resolution. You are just stubborn at a lower number basically.

why do people ask these questions? When I played D&D minis, people would criticize other people for playing low-tiered warbands...

Does the Most Important Rule no longer exist?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:why do people ask these questions? When I played D&D minis, people would criticize other people for playing low-tiered warbands...

Does the Most Important Rule no longer exist?

Because there are a lot of situations where warhammer is played in tournies, where money is involved....

I want to know where my army, or army im thinking about playing stands.

Shivan: Your list is something I more-or-less agree with. A big swap I would make would be switching WoC with Empire.

WoC will never be up there. I agree that you have strong infantry and the potential for strong magic, but you cannot have both in the same army. Meanwhile, Empire has the most devastating shooting period, and can get the screens and tarpits in front of it.

The problem with the huge war machine lists is the same problem O&G has with animosity...

There is a 1/6 chance of something going bad...

I'll take that 5/6 chance of wiping an army off the table any day...

I have to agree with people, Empire are probably the best army right now, if the list is built right they can out shoot anyone, and out magic defense "nearly" everyone.

Last night, I fielded a 2K list of high elves with Teclis vs. a 2K Empire with Balthazar Gelt and neither of us got a good spell off the entire game. It may have been due to my lack of doubles for most phases. :(

His shooting was so powerful I had to hide at 25" the entire game, if he tried to move up I volley fired the unit into the dirt, so he ended up relying on his Mortars, which worked very well since they ignored any cover benefits.

The only reason he didn't wipe me off the table was due to the sheer power of Phoenix Guard ward saves.

HiveFleet wrote:

radiohazard wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ooooo... Would the Slaanesh Ld daemon bomb army reduce the ld of units even if they were stubborn???

Yes, as it reduces the base leadership and is not a modifyer like combat resolution. You are just stubborn at a lower number basically.

Hmmm interesting.

Worth having a look, but I think I'll end up doing high elves. Theyre a bit good.

I think orcs and goblins got a huge boost. They have very good magic defense. I expect you'll see the staff of sneaky stealin and the +3 dispel dice banner in every army. -1 PD to the opponent and +4 DD to the orc player is very reliable defense.

Cheap ranked troops are huge. Rerolling panic near the ASB is huge for them as well. Cheap warmachines and the room to take them is going to be devastating when it gos well, and still effective when a few misfire.

Access to lots of good common magic items also fills in a lot of holes.

Overall, they are going to be underestimated at first, and quite powerful as people learn how to play 8th.

Yes, Orcs & Goblins did take a big boost. They're still not top tier (they'll never be top tier so long as they have a one-in-six chance of doing nada), but they're not as low as they once were. O&G's greatest advantage is that they have major potential at anti-magic work, what with a possible +4 Dispel Dice, -1 enemy Power Dice and a character at +5 Dispel Attempts to boot. Not impossible to match in other armies, but at lower point levels such as 1000pts (you can get at least the +4 DD and -1 enemy PD with a solid core choice and about 100pts in Heroes) that's pretty hard to match.

They have a +3 dispel dice banner!? With the staff of sneaky stealing, that's crazy... really, really good magic defense!

And lots of cheap troops to run in big blocks along with some warmachines. Basically, I'm saying the same thing you said, but I agree- they're definitely competitive now, if fielded well!

RiTides wrote:They have a +3 dispel dice banner!?

Banner is you add your rank bonus to your Dispel Dice pool. You can add it to any (Orc) that can carry a Magic Standard, meaning blocks of Boyz or Black Orcs can use it without needing to dedicate your BSB. Makes it immune to sniping too.

Wow! That's excellent . Good to see O&G standing tall once again!

I beg to differ with WE being at the bottom. Take a look at their FAQ Ancients no longer take up a rare and lord slot. In other words four of them can be fielded in a 3000+ game. I dont care what army you're playing four treemen are sick.

Yes, and nieto- I want a cookie for that one

I've got 3 treemen, and I'll be fielding them for around 3K games! Probably just 2 at 2.5K or lower, though. Thunderstomp FTW!

Unfortunately, any kind of cannons are just going to ruin my day

Another problem for Lizzies is the fact that basically everyone does more damage in CC via supporting attacks. Spear Saurus do exactly as many attacks as before, but lose attacks sooner since they need 3 ranks to fight. Also, mixed skink units are worse than ever...

The slann is indeed very powerful though. Most lores will see a loremaster slann getting four or five free dice a turn. I finally get to be one of those 'i used this in an old edition before it was popular' grognards, yay!

The only thing I hate about the HE PDF is the loss of extra specials and rares, though we get to ignore the duplicate rule ( I havent looked into that yet). This does mean we have to take more crappy HE infantry but at least Sea guard are good now a little on the expensive side but good.

RiTides wrote:Yes, and nieto- I want a cookie for that one

I've got 3 treemen, and I'll be fielding them for around 3K games! Probably just 2 at 2.5K or lower, though. Thunderstomp FTW!

Unfortunately, any kind of cannons are just going to ruin my day

Sir Ill give you more then a cookie!! That just totally made my day, plus everything else with the changes in my other two armies......good times man good times.