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Because the INAT FAQ makes arbitraryt rules changes and calls them clarifications?

You broke the rule down correctly, but forgot that tellion is in a unit, and therefore the subject "unit" applies to the entire unit.

No conferring is required.

Again: is an IC considered to be a "unit" by itself? If so, this may be why Stealth is worded as it is (to cover both ICs and groups of models that have the rule). While Stealth is not a *-rule, p48 says ICs joining units do not confer their USR. If Upgradable Characters are like ICs then Telion does NOT grant Stealth to the rest of his unit. The counterargument is that upgradable characters are never a "unit," except where everyone else has died--and even the it is not the "Telion unit" but rather the "remains of the Scout unit." Since Telion is never by himself a unit qua himself, it would seem that his Stealth is conferred to the rest of his unit. This seems to me to be a very technical reading of the rules--a pretty typical RAW loophole. It is clear why Telion has Stealth: his model has a camo cloak. He's meant to be with other Scouts with camo cloaks.

No conferring is required.

While an IC is joined to a unit it is part of that unit (read the IC rules, particularly the assault section)

He is NOT, repeat NOT granting ANYTHING to the unit. ALL Stealth states is the *unit*s cover saves are improved by 1

Is tellion in the unit? Yes? then the unit has their cover saves improved by 1.

No need to have any "conferring" there...

Yes, he is conferring a bonus as in without him they do not have that +1. Let me clarify that I see your point: Telion is not giving the Scouts Stealth but rather +1 to cover saves. But look at Harker, another 5th ed Upgradable Character, who explicitly gives other Vets in his Squad Stealth. It seems to me that benefiting from Stealth is the same thing as having Stealth. For example, if Harker dies does his Squad cease to have Stealth? Cease to be Catachan Devils? How about if Telion dies?

Manchu wrote:For example, if Harker dies does his Squad cease to have Stealth? How about if Telion dies?

Yes and Yes.

So a Catachan Devil Squad is no longer a Catachan Devil Squad when Harker dies? I can't agree.

Manchu wrote:So a Catachan Devil Squad is no longer a Catachan Devil Squad when Harker dies? I can't agree.

What exactly do the rules care if it is a Catachan Devils Squad?

The rules care if someone has Stealth. If no-one has it, then no-one benefits.

It's a Veteran Squad with the Catachan Devils rule....not a "Catachan Devils Squad". That being said, I would say if he dies the squad does not lose the rule. It says "Harker and his squad have the blah blah blah...", not "Harker gives the squad he is in blah blah blah". The wording to me says once you pay the points for Harker, the squad has the rule regardless of his status.

My take is that part of Harker's price is paying for a Vet Squad with Stealth, Move through Cover, and Scouts (that is, a Catachan Devils Squad as per Harker's flavor text). People who say that Telion's whole unit has Stealth w/o them taking camo cloaks are apparently saying this, too. In this case, having Stealth and benefiting from it are the same thing. But Harker's rules, unlike Telion's, explicitly say Harker's vets get those USRs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No conferring is required.

While an IC is joined to a unit it is part of that unit (read the IC rules, particularly the assault section)

He is NOT, repeat NOT granting ANYTHING to the unit. ALL Stealth states is the *unit*s cover saves are improved by 1

Is tellion in the unit? Yes? then the unit has their cover saves improved by 1.

No need to have any "conferring" there...

Telion is not an IC. He is an upgrade character. As for conferring, does the unit have stealth without him? No, and according to your argument they do when he is there therefore he confers the his USR to the unit which is not allowed by any rule that you can show.

Synnister wrote:No, and according to your argument they do when he is there therefore he confers the his USR to the unit

Patently false.
That has been covered.

The Stealth rule itself states that a unit is affect. Nothing need be confered for the Stealth rule to affect a unit.

The difference is that either the upgrade character gives other models in the unit Stealth or just gives them a cover bonus. Either way, something is conferred by the upgrade character. Harker is an example of an upgrade that gives Stealth. To my mind, it is clear that his Vets get the Stealth cover bonus whether or not Harker is alive. Telion himself has Stealth. The dominant reading in this thread is that single models (at least upgrade characters) are not units thus the word "unit" in the Stealth USR could only refer to the entire scout group that Telion is with. Assuming that is correct, what happens when Telion dies? Those who say that nothing is being conferred by Telion must also say that the scouts retain their bonus.

Manchu wrote:Those who say that nothing is being conferred by Telion must also say that the scouts retain their bonus.

Why? Are the models in his unit if he is not in a unit?

Manchu wrote:Assuming that is correct, what happens when Telion dies?

The Stealth rule no longer applies, as the model with it is no longer alive.

In other words, you would agree that Telion confers a cover save bonus.

I agree that Stealth states that the bonus applies to the unit. Stealth is not, however, confered.

Exactly so. Harker gives other models in his unit the Stealth USR. If Telion gives anything at all to other models in his unit it is a cover bonus based on the wording of the Stealth USR, which only he has. But that wording seems tricky to me. For example, if an IC with Stealth joins another unit, the wording of Stealth would seem to imply that that unit would start to get the cover bonus. Page 48 seems to preclude that, however. Furthermore, are ICs units in and of themselves? If no, then they can never benefit from Stealth as interpreted in this thread even when they have the Stealth rule themselves. Finally, can someone check Telion's Wargear listing for a camo cloak. I am at work and do not have the Codex in front of me.

Furthermore, are ICs units in and of themselves?

Yes. As was explained to me, in 40k "unit" is defined by coherency. If a group of models must stay within coherency throughout the entire game, then it is a unit. Can a IC join and leave units? If so, then he is his own unit.

Yes, I agree that ICs are units in which case I also think the Stealth USR was written to cover both ICs and multi-model units but not necessarily upgrade characters and their relationship to the rest of their units. The RAW can support Telion's Stealth giving other models in his unit a cover save bonus but I don't think it's as simple as that. If Telion's Wargear listing includes a Stealth cloak, I guess his Stealth USR could reflect that. The counterargument is that writing Stealth as well as listing camo cloak is redundant.

IC's (as opposed to upgrade characters like Telion) can be units.
They can also be(come) part of a unit.

Also, Telion's wargear does NOT contain a camo cloak.

kirsanth wrote:IC's (as opposed to upgrade characters like Telion) can be units.
They can also be(come) part of a unit.

Also, Telion's wargear does NOT contain a camo cloak.

which is why he has stealth so that when you buy camo cloaks for the unit he fits in with their stealth. As for the 'all' in the sentence in the stealth rule, is it not more probable that since there are varying types of cover (ie barricades, area, interposing models, etc.) that the all is saying that no matter the source of the cover save you get a +1? As opposed to say kroot who get improved saves if in woods.

Synnister wrote: As for the 'all' in the sentence in the stealth rule, is it not more probable that since there are varying types of cover (ie barricades, area, interposing models, etc.) that the all is saying that no matter the source of the cover save you get a +1? As opposed to say kroot who get improved saves if in woods.

I do not think that makes more sense, actually but I understand whever you are coming from with that. I think you are focusing on the wrong part, though.
Regardless of what "all" means, "the unit's" is not vague. It refers to Telion's unit in this case.

This is distinct from other USRs e.g."stubborn units gain" or "relentless models" or "units subject to rage" or "units with this ability" or "the model is" or "a unit with this rule".

However, this is a permissive ruleset and you have yet to reference any rule that allows upgrade characters to confer their USR to the unit they're in. That is why you have to look at the language of the sentence.

Synnister wrote:However, this is a permissive ruleset and you have yet to reference any rule that allows upgrade characters to confer their USR to the unit they're in. That is why you have to look at the language of the sentence.

How many times does this have to be explained? No-one is saying Telion gives stealth to the unit.

What we are saying is Stealth itself says to improve all the units cover saves, so even though no-one else has Stealth ALL THE UNITS COVER SAVES ARE IMPROVED.

There is your permission.

The word "all" in the language of the Stealth rule absolutely refers to the cover saves and not to the models in the unit. This is not dispositive of the debate, however, because the key word is "unit's" rather than "all." As Telion can never exist independently as a unit--given that even when every other model in his Scout Squad is dead, he is the remnant of that Stealth Squad unit rather than the "Telion unit"--the language of the Stealth rule therefore could indicate that the entire Scout Squad, i.e., the "unit" in question, receives a bonus to all of its cover saves.

Gwar! wrote:

Synnister wrote:However, this is a permissive ruleset and you have yet to reference any rule that allows upgrade characters to confer their USR to the unit they're in. That is why you have to look at the language of the sentence.

How many times does this have to be explained? No-one is saying Telion gives stealth to the unit.

What we are saying is Stealth itself says to improve all the units cover saves, so even though no-one else has Stealth ALL THE UNITS COVER SAVES ARE IMPROVED.

There is your permission.

And your interpretation of the rule is wrong. I think at this point nothing more is being added and we'll have to agree to disagree and I'll happily play via INAT ruling which most tourneys use.

Synnister, what is your argument exactly?

That stealth from Telion does not affect the rest of the unit.

Sure, but why not?

Because the poster is convinced that the rule "stealth" has to be conferred to other models in the unit, when the language of Stealth in fact makes not such requirement.

If one model in a unit has Stealth, the UNITS cover saves are improved by one.

That is it, end of. INAT is, as is often the case, wrong on the actual rules as they have been written down but possibly not on the intentiion of the rule.

The more I think about this issue, the more I think that RAW and RAI are actually the same here.

The difference between having Stealth and benefiting from it lies in how the unit looses the bonus to cover saves. In Telion's case, his unit looses it when he dies. This is because he is the teacher and the other Scouts are benefiting from his mastery. If he's not around, they don't know what to do and so loose the bonus. Harker, by contrast, is a commando who works with other commandos. If Harker goes down, the rest of the Devils still know what's what and so keep their bonus.