Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When Sgt. Harker does not confer Fearless and Relentless on his Vet Squad--but he keeps them himself? How does Fearless work then?

If his squad does not have it then neither does he, as Fearless is one of the USRs that has an "*" next to it.

Gunnery Sergeant Harker has Feel-no-Pain and Relentless.

These only apply to himself and not to his squad.


He does not give Fearless.

The '*' only pertains to Independent Characters, not upgrade characters. Upgrade characters do not confer their USRs to the squad they are a member of unless their rules says specifically that it goes to the entire unit. There is no rule that says that you can therefore it is not allowed. Also, if you look at the ruling for Arjac's stubborn in the Space Wolf FAQ it says that he only benefits from the rule when the rest of the squad is dead. Stubborn is a USR that doesn't have an '*' so it is normally conferred to the squad by an IC.

Maybe I missed something but Harker isn't fearless. He has Relentless, FNP, and his squad and him have Stealth and Move Through Cover.

No, I just misremembered it being fearless. So Harker has FNP and Relentless even in squad--or must he wait until his squad is dead? (Although I am pretty sure he also gives his squad Stealth.)

FNP and Relentless are not "*" rules, so nothing happens with him. He gets to keep both rules, so if you apply wounds to him them he getrs to use FNP, and if he moves you can use his relentless to fire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:FNP and Relentless are not "*" rules, so nothing happens with him. He gets to keep both rules, so if you apply wounds to him them he getrs to use FNP, and if he moves you can use his relentless to fire.

The '*' rule in the USR section does not apply to him as he is a upgrade character. The rules discussing '*' for USRs is dealing specifically with ICs not upgrade characters.

Synnister wrote:The '*' rule in the USR section does not apply to him as he is a upgrade character. The rules discussing '*' for USRs is dealing specifically with ICs not upgrade characters.

Yes, this analysis is why I bothered to post the question but as I misremembered FNP as Fearless, it's moot anyhow. For Harker, at least.

FnP and Relentless are both rules that can apply to Independent models(not Characters, although IC can still benefit from these rules when attached to a squad without them), therefore yes if his squad moves he can still fire "payback", his Heavy Bolter; and if you assign a wound to him and he fails his Armor Save, then you can use his FnP.

The Only USRs that an IC has that get's conferred to a Squad they join are the ones that Specifically say they do, and to a very Slight degree Slow and Purposeful(although with S&P the squad does not benefit from it, just required to move at the Slow IC's pace).

Conversely the Only rules that get dropped by The IC or the Squad not having them are those with the *

How about Telion and giving his UNIT Stealth? This just came up in another thread. (I personally think it's just a loophole.)

Manchu wrote:How about Telion and giving his UNIT Stealth? This just came up in another thread. (I personally think it's just a loophole.)

It's not a loophole, it's how the Stealth USR works. If One model has it. the UNITS saves are improved.

Gwar! wrote:

Manchu wrote:How about Telion and giving his UNIT Stealth? This just came up in another thread. (I personally think it's just a loophole.)

It's not a loophole, it's how the Stealth USR works. If One model has it. the UNITS saves are improved.

How do you figure that? The character rules say that unless specifed, a character's special rule is not conferred upon the unit it joins, and nothing in the stealth rule says that a character confers it upon the entire unit (like night vision and stubborn for example)

Because that is what the USR says: the units saves are improved, tellion is part of the unit ergo the entire units saves are improved.

Yeah, my error, Telion is an upgrade character, not an independent character. Disregard.

Even if he was an IC, it would still work, since the UNITS Cover saves are improved. No-one else gets stealth, but the whole units saves are improved.

Are ICs not "units"? If not, does an IC with the Stealth rule not benefit from it because he is not a "unit" (assuming there is an IC with Stealth)?

Under the rules for independent characters on page 48, if an independent character joins a unit, its special rules are not conferred upon the unit (and Vice-versa) unless it is specified in the rule itself. Stealth improves the unit's cover saves but does not say that an independent character with the stealth special rule confers it upon a unit it has joined, so therefore, it does not. If a character with stealth joins a unit withou stealth, the character sould still gain the cover save bonus, butthe rest of the unit would notl.

Manchu wrote:

Synnister wrote:The '*' rule in the USR section does not apply to him as he is a upgrade character. The rules discussing '*' for USRs is dealing specifically with ICs not upgrade characters.

Yes, this analysis is why I bothered to post the question but as I misremembered FNP as Fearless, it's moot anyhow. For Harker, at least.

Another sort of tricky rule that needs to be remembered is that if Harker fired his Heavy Bolter, the unit cannot assault. Sure, he's relentless and he may fire and assault, but the "unit" still shot a heavy weapon and the unit itself is not relentless.

time wizard wrote:Under the rules for independent characters on page 48, if an independent character joins a unit, its special rules are not conferred upon the unit (and Vice-versa) unless it is specified in the rule itself. Stealth improves the unit's cover saves but does not say that an independent character with the stealth special rule confers it upon a unit it has joined, so therefore, it does not. If a character with stealth joins a unit withou stealth, the character sould still gain the cover save bonus, butthe rest of the unit would notl.

Yes, that is what SHOULD happen.

That isn't what actually happens though.

Gwar! wrote:

Manchu wrote:How about Telion and giving his UNIT Stealth? This just came up in another thread. (I personally think it's just a loophole.)

It's not a loophole, it's how the Stealth USR works. If One model has it. the UNITS saves are improved.

That's not right. The 'all' in the rule is referring to the cover saves not unit. It's saying that no matter where the cover save comes from it gets +1.

Synnister wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Manchu wrote:How about Telion and giving his UNIT Stealth? This just came up in another thread. (I personally think it's just a loophole.)

It's not a loophole, it's how the Stealth USR works. If One model has it. the UNITS saves are improved.

That's not right. The 'all' in the rule is referring to the cover saves not unit. It's saying that no matter where the cover save comes from it gets +1.

Actually it is right, if one model has stealth, "All of the units cover saves are improved by +1." The only other sentence in the stealth USR is fluff text.

It actually says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1". All and unit's describe cover saves. All can't describe unit's. Also, GW has made it clear that upgrade characters don't confer their USRs even in cases where the USR text says that it does.

Synnister wrote:It actually says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1". All and unit's describe cover saves. All can't describe unit's. Also, GW has made it clear that upgrade characters don't confer their USRs even in cases where the USR text says that it does.

So the unit's cover save is improved, but that does not apply to the unit?

What did I miss in the post?

He has no leg to stand on, no USR is being conferred to anyone. If any single model in a unit has stealth the entire unit benefits, precisely because of how its worded.

Also, you're trying to break the sentence down; but even what you copied from the rulebook doesn't support your assertion .... reading comprehension ftw ....

kill dem stunties wrote:He has no leg to stand on, no USR is being conferred to anyone. If any single model in a unit has stealth the entire unit benefits, precisely because of how its worded.

Also, you're trying to break the sentence down; but even what you copied from the rulebook doesn't support your assertion .... reading comprehension ftw ....

Exactly. Reading comprehension on this rule has failed several times. In the sentence, armor saves is the subject of the sentence. Unit's is a possessive noun and All is an adjective. The adjective and possessive noun modify the subject of the sentence. The USRs are written for entire units of models having the USR. Just having 1 model in the unit with the USR does not apply the USR to the entire unit.

Except that is exactly what does happen.

When the unit has a cover save, it is improved by one.

While the IC is joined to the unit the IC is part of the unit, therefore the subject "unit" applies to the ENTIRE unit the IC is with.

Youre missing the point of the argument....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that is exactly what does happen.

When the unit has a cover save, it is improved by one.

While the IC is joined to the unit the IC is part of the unit, therefore the subject "unit" applies to the ENTIRE unit the IC is with.

Youre missing the point of the argument....

I have no idea what you're going on about with ICs. I was discussing how Telion's USR does not convey to the unit if they don't buy camo cloaks.

Except that it does, because of how the rule is worded, you can break it down and analyze it all you want, but you are wrong.

kill dem stunties wrote:Except that it does, because of how the rule is worded, you can break it down and analyze it all you want, but you are wrong.

Then why does the INAT FAQ agree with me? I break it down because the rule has been interpreted wrongly by many people. You've still failed to point to a rule that says an upgrade character conveys his USR to the unit he's with. If your interpretation of the wording of the stealth rule was correct, then Arjac's stubborn would apply to the unit he is with. And by looking at the SW FAQ we know that it doesn't work that way.