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In order to benefit from a Special rule you have to have access to it. Therefore, the USR must be conferred to the squad. As there is no rule allowing upgrade characters to convey their USR to the squad they are a member of, the unit cannot benefit from the USR.

I have stated several times that the interpretation of the sentence people claim grants the entire unit stealth is wrong. Simple English comprehension is all that's needed. In the sentence "all" refers to cover saves. Since unit is not the subject of the sentence it cannot be modified by the adjective 'all'. In that instance the rule is saying no matter the source of the cover save you get a +1.

Now if you look at the preface to the USR section it specifically talks about 'units of models' implying that it's talking about complete units having the USR. No where does it say that just one model in the unit is sufficient to give the entire unit stealth.

Also, why would GW specifically say that Harker gives his unit stealth? By the understanding contrary to my argument, it is completely unnecessary to include that distinction. So, I'm guessing GW forgot how stealth works when they wrote the IG codex. Or maybe you can't have a upgrade conferring stealth to their unit without their rule saying it. So, lets see I have precedent from the IG codex, the actual language of the rule supporting it. Oh, and lets not forget that GW also ruled in the SW FAQ about upgrade characters not conferring their USR.

Lets look at cost and balance. For less than the cost of giving the unit of 10 scouts camo cloaks plus cost of a scout sergent you get +1WS, +2BS, the ability to snipe, the ability to use his BS, and R36 rending bolter. That is by far the best priced SC ever I believe.

That's not a bad point, actually. If Telion gives Scouts in his unit a cover save bonus, you can get up to 27pts of camo cloaks while he remains alive. Considering a Scout sgt. is worth about 15pts, he's not far from making up his cost in cloaks alone as long as you're taking a ten-man Scout squad. Is that bolter and some extra BS and WS worth the balance? Is getting Telion for cheap worth taking a ten-man Scout squad? To be honest, these questions are really beside the point.

The point is that the Stealth USR says that a unit gets the cover save bonus. The word "all" never comes into it except, as you have noted, to clarify that the source of the cover save is not material to the application of the bonus. Think about this carefully: It does NOT say that the MODEL that has the Stealth USR receives the bonus. It says that the unit receives the bonus. Telion can never, under no circumstances be a unit in and of himself. There is no unit called Telion in Warhammer 40,000. In this case, the "unit" that the Stealth USR refers to must be the unit of Scouts of which Telion is a part.

You are also correct to wonder at the difference between Harker's rules, which explicitly grant the Stealth USR to his squadmates, and Telion's rules, which do not. The difference is that because each model in Harker's vet squad has the Stealth USR, it does not matter that Harker dies--they will retain the cover save bonus conferred by the Stealth USR. Telion--again, as you correctly note--does NOT confer the Stealth USR to the other Scouts in his unit. Instead, the unit benefits from him having Stealth USR because of that rule's wording. But if Telion dies--i.e., if the only model with the Stealth USR is no longer a part of that unit--then the rest of the unit ceases to benefit from Stealth. They do not cease to have Stealth. They never had it. They simply don't get the cover save that Stealth confers to the whole unit.

I have to admit, though, the SWFAQ on Arjac seems to throw a wrench in the works. Like Stealth, Stubborn uses the term "unit." But unlike Stealth, Stubborn explicitly mentions that ICs with Stubborn always confer Stubborn to the units they join. In other words, a unit joined by a stubborn IC has the Stubborn USR itself while that IC is with them. This must be the case because the only way to benefit from Stubborn is to actually have the rule (even if you only have it temporarily). This is not true of Stealth, however, or at least it does not have to be. The BRB RAW can support the interpretation that a unit that includes a non-IC model with the Stealth USR gets a +1 bonus to all of its cover saves even though the mere fact that one model in that unit has the Stealth USR is NOT enough to confer the rule to every other model.

Furthermore, the SWFAQ clarifies that Arjac does not CONFER the Stubborn USR to other models in his unit. So all your precedent really says is that upgrade SCs do not confer the USRs he comes with to other models in their units. It seems that everyone in this thread accepts that already. The point remains that RAW can mean that a model does not itself need to have the Stealth USR (or have it conferred upon them) in order to benefit from it.

Please note that while Telion can be considered a cheap way to give the unit of scouts camo cloaks, its also a fragile way to do so. There are various ways in which Telion can die before the rest of his squad is wiped out, so they would then lose the benefit.


It really just comes down to the fact that GW wrote the stealth rule differently than the other USRs. For whatever reason, stealth was written using the word unit. It also is not marked with an * so stealth is not lost when an IC joins a unit (not that it matters for an upgrade character such as Telion).

The RAW is clear once you follow through the chain here, the key is realizing that there is no need for any conferring of stealth since as long as stealth isnt removed from the character the unit receives the bonus. Its the way the rule is worded, the UNIT gets the +1.

In a previous thread there was a long discussion about this key point, that thread involved Karandas but also brought Telion into the mix as well.



INAT decided that the RAI was different than the RAW in this case, so actually changed the rule. Or it may have been to bring stealth into line with the other USRs that are written differently.


Sliggoth

PS The fluff reason for stealth working this way is simply that the leader of the unit directs his troops and helps them seek better cover when he is with them. It is his skill and knowledge that gives them the improved ability to find cover and once he is no longer with the unit they no longer benefit from his skill/ wisdom.

Synnister - you have made TWO unsupported (and wrong) leaps.

1) You have assumed it is not possible for one model to give the benefit to an entire unit, despite no RULE stating otherwise

2) You have decided, for no reason, that the entire unit must have access to the USR in order to benefit. Which is incorrect.

The UNIT , whil e Tellion is alive, have their cover saves improved by 1.

That is it. Finito. the end. "All" is irrelevant to the discussion, the simple fact is that the UNIT has their cover saves improved by 1. It is also ironic that you talk about simple english comphrension when you keep ignoring this point, chooising instead to make rules up (see 1 and 2) to supprot your argument.

simply put: You are wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Synnister - you have made TWO unsupported (and wrong) leaps.

1) You have assumed it is not possible for one model to give the benefit to an entire unit, despite no RULE stating otherwise

2) You have decided, for no reason, that the entire unit must have access to the USR in order to benefit. Which is incorrect.

The UNIT , whil e Tellion is alive, have their cover saves improved by 1.

That is it. Finito. the end. "All" is irrelevant to the discussion, the simple fact is that the UNIT has their cover saves improved by 1. It is also ironic that you talk about simple english comphrension when you keep ignoring this point, chooising instead to make rules up (see 1 and 2) to supprot your argument.

simply put: You are wrong.

1) This is a permissive ruleset so you have not stated a rule that actually allows 1 member of the unit to consider the entire unit has having the rule. Oh, and as for not having a rule stating otherwise, why is that they talk extensively about how a IC interacts with units with USR? If as you say was true then they'd have to have no discussion about ICs conferring their USR to units they join. Since they actually give permission to the ICs to convey their USRs to units it kinda implies that you need express permission to do something. As opposed to just assuming that a USR covers everyone in the squad.

2) If the entire unit gets the rule then all members have to have access to the USR. Which they don't so that statement is incorrect.

All is not irrelevant. In order to assume that having 1 model in the unit is enough to consider them all to have stealth, then all must apply to the unit. Which, by all proper understandings of the English language, is not being stated in the rule.

Synnister, do you understand the difference between actually having the rule and just benefiting from the rule? The other Scouts in the unit with Telion do not have the Stealth USR. But because the rule talks about a "unit"--a word that cannot refer to Telion under any circumstances--those other models get the cover save bonus.

Please just try to answer this question: in the case of Telion standing in for the sergeant in a Scout squad, to which model or group of models does the word unit refer?

The rule talking about unit is because only complete units (ie squads and ICs) have USR. You keep talking about benefiting from the rule without actually having it and as a permissive rule set you have to have permission to use a USR. No where does it give you permission to use a USR without having the rule. If that were true then I'll say all my Grey Hunters are stubborn and have FNP since you don't have to have the USR to benefit from it. LOLs. My Grey Hunters are OP!!!

The models with the USR. Since Telion cannot convey the USR to the unit the game breaks. At this point you have to house rule what happens just like GW did with Arjac's stubborn. As for how I'd handle it, I'd say that you treat the unit as a complex unit per pg 25.

Synnister wrote:As for how I'd handle it, I'd say that you treat the unit as a complex unit per pg 25.

That is a very, very good point that I had totally missed. Stealth aside, a Scout squad with Telion would still have to take saves as a complex unit. Given this, there is no reason why the cover bonus could not only apply to him. Keep in mind that I already agree with you regarding the phrase "all of the unit's cover saves" meaning "any of the four categories of cover" rather than "every save taken by each model in the unit."

I have to say, it looks like you just won this debate!

Of course, we could both be wrong about the meaning of the phrase "all of the unit's cover saves." I don't think this is true, however. Non-complex units always take one cover save, right? So the guys who are not actually in the area terrain still get the cover save if they are part of a unit that has a majority of its models inside that terrain area. So let's say that Telion is one of those guys not in the terrain area. He still gets the cover save from the terrain (let's say a 4+). But when it comes time to roll cover saves, he has to roll separately from the other Scouts. He takes the same cover save as the rest of the unit (the 4+) but he ROLLS separately. To really belabor the point, that save is one "of the unit's cover saves" that make up the category of "all of the unit's cover saves" mentioned in the Stealth USR.

Except cover saves are taken as a whole, there is no ability to have a seperate cover save to other members of the unit.

I have demonstrated permjission: the unit has +1 to their cover save.

Please demonstrate where this permission is revoked. Actual rules this time, please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except cover saves are taken as a whole, there is no ability to have a seperate cover save to other members of the unit.

They don't have separate cover saves. He just rolls the same cover save separately.

While we're asking questions I'll throw one at you. If Arjac replaces a Wolf Guard model in a unit of Wolf Guard terminators, when you look at the stubborn rule where it says stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers, what model or group of models does units refer? According to the logic behind the argument for stealth benefiting the entire unit, then it would apply to all of the termies but we know that's not the case.

Because the GW FAQ ignoerd the rules and changed them, without issuing an errata.

Next question?

You still have not refuted the permission gained in "the units cover saves" - Tellion is not, and never is, a unit (he is always a Scout unit) therefore the "unit" cannot refer to tellion.

Oddly enough, it refers to the Scout unit.

That's the same point I was making, nosferatu.

I guess it comes down to this: any Scout squad with a Sgt is a complex unit. That means when the unit takes a cover save, the regular Scouts all roll at once and the Sgt rolls separately. Regardless, each model takes the same save (e.g., 3+, 4+, etc). At this point, Telion would add the +1 to his separate roll of the unit's cover save. What Synnister has been saying is that there is no reason to believe that he would add this +1 to the rolls of the other Scouts because "all of the unit's saves" does not mean "every save taken by every model" but rather "every save taken by the unit" (e.g., 3+, 4+, etc). In other words, "all the unit's saves" DOES NOT MEAN "all the unit's rolls."

As this clearly breaks the rules of the game you have to house rule it. Thus, I'd look to oh I don't know maybe .... GW for guidance on how to house rule USR being conveyed to units with an attached upgrade character.

Except that he would not do that, as the subject is "unit" - by only improving Tellions cover save by 1 you have broken the Stealth USR.

Now that I think about it more, I'd say that like Arjac's stubborn, Telion's stealth would not go into effect until he's the only member left if you did not buy camo cloaks for the unit. But that's clearly a house rule. Since, just like Arjac's stubborn, the wording of the USR breaks when the squad he is attached to does not have the USR and there is no specific permission granted by the SC's rule entry.

Except that you cannot compare to Arjacs stubborn, as that is a rule that is entirely different to Stealth. Added to the fact that the FAQ is a specific FAQ concerning just Arjac....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Synnister wrote:As this clearly breaks the rules of the game you have to house rule it. Thus, I'd look to oh I don't know maybe .... GW for guidance on how to house rule USR being conveyed to units with an attached upgrade character.

It doesnt break the rules of the game; you have yet, despite requesting this a few times, yet to show where the permission "the units cover saves are improved by 1" is removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that he would not do that, as the subject is "unit" - by only improving Tellions cover save by 1 you have broken the Stealth USR.

Hmm, I also see your point. So you are saying that "cover saves" refers to the result of the roll rather than the class of save (+3, +4, etc.). After all, if you gave +1 to the class of cover save you would be making it worse (+3 cover is better than +4 cover). In this case, "all of the unit's cover saves" must refer to the results of each roll for a cover save taken by the unit--Telion's as well as all the other models.

Right?

Well, it refers to the value required to pass the cover save, i.e. improving it from a 4+ to a 3+ roll.

While Tellion is alive with members A-D of the unit (theres that "unit" word again, who'd have thought...)

Is model A part of the unit? Yes? Then the models cover save is improved by 1, as that is what the rule states when applied to the model.

Is model B part of the unit? Yes? Then....

Repeat for all models in the unit. Done. Every single model in the unit has an improved cover save.

Failing to improve the cover save for every component of the unit is breaking the Stealth rule. So not only is Syn lacking a rule which removes permission, in absence removal of this permission you are breaking a rule....

In GW land, math runs like this:

(4+) + 1 = (3+)

?

Are you sure it's not saying 1d6+1?

Except that is not the correct equation.

"improving the save by +1" is not the same as "take the value of the save and add +1"

Improving the save here, because of what "imprioving" means (to make better" means reducing the value required by +1.

@nosferatu: Alright, now I think I'm back on track. Let me lay out the steps and you can check each one. Synn, you can show me where you think I am wrong, too.

(1) Because Telion is not an IC, even when he is the last remaining live member of a Scout Squad unit he is still comprises the Scout Squad unit.

(2) The Stealth USR says "all of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1."

(3) "Cover saves" here refers to class of save (4+, 3+, etc) rather than result of the roll on that save (which are referred to in other USRs as "rolls").

(4) Improving a cover save by +1 means that 5+ becomes 4+, 4+ becomes 3+, etc.

(5) All units take only one cover save (4+, 3+, etc) even though complex units are required to roll their saves separately.

(6) Whenever a Scout Squad unit containing Telion (i.e., Telion hasn't died yet) has cover, the cover save category FOR THE UNIT is improved by +1.

Now, Synn, correct me if I am wrong but you main points are:

(1) The Stealth USR does apply to whole units BUT . . .

(2) There must be some general allowing a SC's USRs are effective when they are a part of a unit with models that do not have that same USR.

(3) There is no such rule.

(4) Therefore the wording of the Stealth USR therefore means that Telion's Stealth is only in effect when (a) all other models in his unit have camo cloaks or (b) when he is the only model in the unit.

And nosferatu's response (again, correct me if I am wrong) is:

The wording of the Stealth USR itself is the general (special) rule allowing the Stealth USR of an SC (as distinct from an IC) to remain effective even when other models in the same unit do not have the Stealth USR.

To which Synnister replies:

Why should SC's keep the Stealth USR in a squad with models that do not have it when IC's cannot?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that you cannot compare to Arjacs stubborn, as that is a rule that is entirely different to Stealth. Added to the fact that the FAQ is a specific FAQ concerning just Arjac....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Synnister wrote:As this clearly breaks the rules of the game you have to house rule it. Thus, I'd look to oh I don't know maybe .... GW for guidance on how to house rule USR being conveyed to units with an attached upgrade character.

It doesnt break the rules of the game; you have yet, despite requesting this a few times, yet to show where the permission "the units cover saves are improved by 1" is removed.

Actually the wording for stubborn and stealth are very similar. They both say Unit's test is blah. As for the FAQ, it's a clarification for the rule that, although specific to SW, it applies to USR and upgrade characters which is the exact same issue we're having with Telion. You have yet to show where one model comprises the entire unit.

It's in a different codex and it's FAQ not errata but the tomb spider and scarab combo for necrons says that the tomb spider doesn't get the bonus to cover but the scarabs do get the +1 from stealth.

"Q. How does a Tomb Spyder with Scarab Swarms
work with the vulnerable to blasts/templates and
stealth special rules?
A. Since this is a complex unit (see page 25 of the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook), all wounds are
allocated to specific models. Only the wounds
allocated to the Scarabs are doubled for
vulnerable to blasts/templates and gain the +1
cover save bonus for stealth."

Syn - i dont need to show where one model comprises the entire unit. I have simply shown that Stealth improves the units saves.

The Scout unit is the unit, Telloion is NOT a unit.

Please show where this permission is removed. If you are unable to do so your argument has failed.

And also please note that stealth does not have a *, so even if the model in question is an IC stealth is not lost if the IC joins another unit.

And yes, unit means all of the models that are together in that group. Its since they used the strange wording in stealth that stealth operates differently than the other USRs (including stubborn).

For stubborn, the rule tells us it operates on stubborn units. The unit has to be stubborn, and the rule tells us that IC confer stubborn onto the unit they join. This does lead to the problem of an upgrade character NOT conferring stubborn on his unit btw.

For stealth, the rule tells us that it operates on the unit. The unit dosnt have to have stealth tho....it just has to be a unit. So there is no conferring of a USR going on at all, stealth is written clearly (and poorly) to say that a unit with a stealth model gets the improved save.


Stealth is NOT conferred onto the unit. But the wording of the stealth rule is such that the cover save of the UNIT is improved by +1.


Sliggoth

Well it seems that at every opportunity GW has to rule on this, they've gone with not allowing 1 model in the unit being enough to allow every model to benefit from stealth and various other USR. They've also gone so far as the specifically write that one upgrade character does confer the stealth rule to his unit. I guess I'll just take their word on it and not some cryptic/mystic (incorrect) interpretation that has been offered on this forum.

Alas, as I've said before nothing can really be gained from further discussion and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Synnister wrote:Well it seems that at every opportunity GW has to rule on this, they've gone with not allowing 1 model in the unit being enough to allow every model to benefit from stealth and various other USR.

Please list the "opportunities".

Gwar! wrote:

Synnister wrote:Well it seems that at every opportunity GW has to rule on this, they've gone with not allowing 1 model in the unit being enough to allow every model to benefit from stealth and various other USR.

Please list the "opportunities".

Necron scarabs and tomb spiders.

That's not Oppertunities. Thats a Single instance of GW Changing the Rules via FAQ for an outdated codex with a rule that is not the same as the USR with which it shares its name.

The fact of the matter is, RaW, a Single model with the USR "Stealth" is all that is needed for the whole unit to get +1 to its cover save.