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Captain Solon wrote:Sherman would easily be able to use it's special power, 'outflank' and shoot into rear armour. assuming all things are considered, a 75 mm cannon would be at least S6. whereas, though much more powerful, a Leman russ is nerfed to S10. it has a far superior range, but, is more like a walking toadstool. (bad image.) compared to the Sherman.

The sherman is outdated even by modern times. It's slow (30 mph or 48 km/h on-road speed), it's armor is nothing but perpendicular slabs of metal with no complexity or sloping, its armament is not capably designed to penetrate tank armor, and it has a very low operational range.

The Abrams is faster, better armored, better armed, has better operational range, and better electronics. Don't even begin to compare the Sherman to an Imperial tank of any kind.

the Tiger is at least BS5

No.

Abrahams, the most powerful slogger availible to humans today.

No, it's Abrams, named after General Creighton Abrams. Do your research if you're going to do arguments such as this.

Hitting 2 out of every 3 shots would be miraculously good aim for an American soldier.

The Leman Russ Battle Tank is an efficient, reliable, cheap tank capable of handling any type of terrain and environment short of ocean or molten lava, has a ridiculously powerful engine and is roughly as nimble as the Abrams while carrying more armament. And then there's the varieties of Leman Russ that are available.

The Destroyer Tank Hunter would wipe out every single modern tank in existence in a single shot. The Thunderer and Demolisher tanks would decimate any barricades or buildings we tried to hide in. The Punisher could wipe out entire infantry regiments in a few seconds. The Executioner could likely melt cars and destroy entire squads with each blast, and there's no guarentee our modern armor could actually protect against it so it oculd very well melt away tank armor as well.

And we have no working equivalent for the Baneblade and all its variants. Sentinels would be a mechanical wonder, and a single titan would decimate the armies of entire nations.


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Vrakk wrote:Modern day tanks would shrug off most of the weapons shot at them. Sloped armour, ablative armour, longer and far more accurate main weapons plus the ability to shoot accurately while moving would result in us winning the tank war.

I think we would have the advantage as far as infantry also. We have the ability to call in close range fire support from artillery to keep the masses down. And we have numbers - India and China alone could field enough troops (albeit poorly trained) that would make a Imperial Guard commander jealous.

1: Shrug off MODERN armaments. There is no proof that they could shrug off a lascannon shot, melta weaponry, battlecannon shot, autocannon shot... etc. Hell, there's no guarantee that they could shrug off plasma weaponry, either, and even multilasers might do some serious damage to modern tanks.
2: So can the Guard.
3: No, they wouldn't be jealous. Chenkov sacrifices millions of Guardsmen as a matter of course. Just tosses them into battle to grind away at the enemy, and there's always more where they came from.

I think we should let this thread just die its not at all be hard to see who would win

raptor8 wrote:and the current assult rifles would be S2 AP-?

S2! no way. A stub gun is the exact same as a modern day pistol and it's S3. An assault rifle is way more powerful than a pistol. It would be at least S3.

OK Imperial vehicles are made from Adamantium, not our steel from earth. So basically we would get owned.

If an AutoCannon can open a LR then an A10 would tear it to pieces.

Soldier of the imperium:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv 5+
Human (American marine and equivalents)
WS2 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld7 Sv 6+

Heh these are cool, but I don't know if I can agree with a modern day soldier being WS2, I2.

WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7 is the basic human profile. That is the profile allowed to hive gangers, servitors, tech priests, arbirators and most other humans who aren't particularly battle hardened.

I think anyone with basic training should have at least those stats, and I don't really see why guardsmen should be any tougher or better trained than modern career soldiers... I would have thought the opposite really since IG are essentially just conscripted cannon fodder.

Assault rifles are roughly equivalent, strength-wise, to autoguns. Autoguns are R24", S3 AP-, Rapid Fire.

SmackCakes wrote:If an AutoCannon can open a LR then an A10 would tear it to pieces.

An A10's weapon would tear any modern tank to pieces even faster. But you'd really have to have air superiority for it to manage to get close enough, even with its legendary toughness.

Imperial Guard constantly face off against far deadlier foes than modern humans do. I think any Guard regiment with even a single battle under its belt would find fighting humans a relief compared to what they normally fight.

Captain Solon wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:*FACEPALM*
NOT THIS DAMN THING AGAIN!
Its like a bloody Zombie. Now i need my shotgun!
Ok guys this is the stupidest topic ever!
Imperial would win. Like a piece paper vs the Sun win.

I don't know. those peices of paper have T6.

Alternatively, you give them SPF30+ and they then have sv 2+.

God. don't you read your Forgeworld releases?

Win!

O-T....
Doesn't the Imperium still use rivites???

Imperium would just send the space marines.
Land Raiders would shred them, and the Termies with Thunder Hammers and Storm shield would make them swiss cheese.
Not to mention they could get a Commander with a Relic Blade, who would be able to pop open even the strongest tank like a tin can.
And since we are talking about Fluff Marines(tm), the bolter would be at least S5 AP4 Assault 2 with the ability to cause multiple wounds (lets say 2) wounds per hit. This would be the average marine statline:
WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:3 Ld:10
Commander:
WS:9 BS:7 S:6 T:6 W:5 I:6 A:5 Ld:10
They would spit acid at tanks, and melt them.

Assuming they deemed the invasion important enough to send Space Marines.

Remember, Space Marines are incredibly rare. There are well over six times as many people in just the D/FW metroplex (north-central Texas) as there are Space Marines. There are several times more Imperial Worlds, at least, than there are Space Marines. I doubt our military could put up such a fight that they'd need any Marines.

thunder hammers cuting like swiss cheese thats lightning claws and powersord, they would be more like a red smear from a TT

JSK-Fox wrote:And since we are talking about Fluff Marines(tm), the bolter would be at least S5 AP4 Assault 2 with the ability to cause multiple wounds (lets say 2) wounds per hit. This would be the average marine statline:
WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:3 Ld:10
Commander:
WS:9 BS:7 S:6 T:6 W:5 I:6 A:5 Ld:10
They would spit acid at tanks, and melt them.

No. Marines are nowhere NEAR that statline even inside of Matt Ward's deranged little skull.

Like a Rash on everyones backside, these threads flare up again and again!

I would say the Imperium would win. We have too much red tape, and a fair amount of our people would probably join the Imperium just because their there.

That and, Imperium life is cheap, they could send in wave after wave at us while we can't. The Guard is meant to hold things in a battle of attritian, which is one thing that few current armies on the world are meant to do.

braindeadmonkey wrote:Title said land only, therefore we can ignore the obvious truth of the butt-licking we would get form battle barges

Deathstrike missiles are basically ICBMs.

I honestly can't believe some people are even taking this comparison seriously. Earth would be a smoldering ruin filled with death camps before the UN finished squabbling over who gets to negotiate with the invaders.

SmackCakes wrote:Also are their tanks really better? A Basilisks has an effective ingame range of 240 inches... We all know that in 40k 1 inch equals about 6 feet (man height). So the Basilisks has an effective range of 1440 feet, which is about 0.2 miles.

I don't know what the effective range of a modern tank like a Challenger 2 is... but I bet it's waaaaay more than 0.2 miles.

I don't think 40k IG army has anything that a modern army couldn't deal with in one way or another. In many ways they seem quite evenly matched. Las rifle = Assault riffle, flak armour = Kevlar etc....

GW game designers have talked about how the ranges of the table top game are not meant to be considered linearly. Such that at the start of the game when you're 4ft away, that might represent a mile, but that as you close the range represented by an inch shifts. Thus their isn't any good way of extrapolating range from the table top. If you look at Forge World's Imperial Armor I believe it places Basilisk cannons as being effective in the 15-20kM range.

Next, Las-rifle doesn't equal Assault Rifle. Autoguns are equal to Las Rifles but autogun's descriptions place them outside the realm of capabilities of modern assault rifles. An autogun, which is equal to a lasgun, was originally described as a 10mm caseless machinegun... no doubt going off of "Aliens." Point is a lasgun is equivalent to whatever sort of assault rifle we see decades from now or maybe a higher powered assault rifle, like a 7.62 as opposed to a 5.56.

Obviously the Imperium has Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Plasma Guns, Meltagun, Flamers, and Lascannons, that the modern military has no similar infantry weapon to. A heavy bolter is a fully automatic 75mm guide assisted shell, an autocannon by todays standards is equivalent to whats in Bradly fighting vehicle which isn't man portable... plasma guns and meltaguns are going to burn holes through everything, and lascannons burn through tanks easily.

When a .50cal is equivalent to a heavy stubber and thats most readily available heavy weapon, Imperium out guns any modern force.

Titan walks on to the battlefield. Game over for humanity. now close this thread, i think we've all had enough of these

Titans with vortex weapons and cannons that make everything dead.

Joetaco wrote:Titan walks on to the battlefield. Game over for humanity. now close this thread, i think we've all had enough of these

Ah, if only nosferatu was here. "YOUR ALL STUPEED! HUMENS WOULD JUST USE PICARD MANEUVER! PICARD MANEUVER! PICARD MANEUVER! AND IMPERIUM WOULD ALL DIE!"

Carpet bomb the troop ships as they open up

i dont read the rules

aka_mythos wrote:post

Okay well your argument is convincing and I am inclined to agree with your points. Perhaps I am playing devils advocate somewhat here. I realise that the imperium is colossal planet conquering machine that could steam roll earth in days, but that isn't what the OP asked. He asked about a battle with IG Versus modern day troops and land only (which made it sound like he wanted to make it a fair test) And suddenly people are posting about how much IG would destroy everything, and how weak modern weapons and soldiers are... While I agree that modern troops don't have the futuristic wargear that IG have, I have to point out that does not mean that modern weapons would be ineffective.

For completeness sake: the description for the Heavy Stubber in my wargear book reads:

"old fashioned weapon ... To all intents the heavy stub gun is similar to a twentieth century heavy machine gun"

My Necromunda Rule Book describes Stub Gun as:

"Primitive type of hand gun ... is recognisable as a revolver or small automatic of the kind used since the twentieth century "

Given these explanations I think it is only fair that an Assault Rifle be considered equivalent to Autogun at S3, which gives us a frame of reference for the strength of modern weapons.

I can't really see any frame of reference for comparing tanks other than how easily they die in game... which is perhaps unrealistic. this makes it hard to draw conclusions.

But needless to say if I had to play a regular 2000 pt IG army, and I had 33331317 troops with autoguns, and something like a few razor backs (just for simplicity). I don't think I would feel too underhanded at all... not like people have been making out.

I think the biggest advantage/disadvantage is that unlike modern forces IG carry weapons that are designed to take out heavy armor. The modern army has Javelin missiles but thats a krak missile doesn't compare to a lascannon shooting a modern tank. Modern military relies on joint arms strategy, infantry doesn't carry much in the way of true heavy weapons because they rely on tanks or air support or artillery to take out armored targets. IG tanks would only have to worry about other tanks and artillery. A leman russ can be made of a variaty of materials depending on the planet it comes from but its suppose to be a type of plastisteel adamantine material... what ever that futuristic mumbo jumbo means thats seemingly more advanced than chobim and may not need to rely as heavily on the geometric tricks modern armor uses to optimize its strength. Against a Russ' front armor an Abram would really struggle.

When it comes to comparing lasguns to autoguns to modern assault rifles, even if you insist on that comparison the simple fact is a lasgun has more shots than a modern rifle man carries bullets. IG would out shoot modern infantry and be able to protract a battle beyond the capabilities of a modern force. IG would use attrition tactics where even if they lost 10 men for every 1 the killed they'd come out on top, since the perception on the value of life in the imperium is lower.

Playing devils advocate, the advantage of modern military over IG would be the ability to more accurately call shots and relay communications of enemy positions; battlefield awareness. Modern forces would have a better utilization of inteligence and indiginous forces. Modern forces because they are volunteer forces would tend to have a higher leadership value. The modern forces pack a lot more special roles into a squad, they have all the defensive grenades, vox, special and heavy weapons formationally that IG wouldn't. An IG squad has a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and 6 rifleman. A modern army squad is 8-16 with a designated marksmen, 2 machineguns, a number of auxiliary grenade launchers, at least two portable missiles, radios, hand grenades and a dedicated transports. In a battle they could do a little bit of everything even if they were eventually worn down.

Tactically the modern army would make use of suppressing fire to pin down enemy forces and then rely largely on heavier assets to clean up, thus without a large use of vehicles IG would be made less mobile.

SmackCakes wrote:Given these explanations I think it is only fair that an Assault Rifle be considered equivalent to Autogun at S3, which gives us a frame of reference for the strength of modern weapons.

Stub gun != autogun.

A Stub weapon is inferior to an Autoweapon. Effectively, a stub weapon is pretty much exactly like modern weapons, while an autogun is far more advanced, a caseless fully automatic and highly reliable weapon of the future.

Melissia wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:Given these explanations I think it is only fair that an Assault Rifle be considered equivalent to Autogun at S3, which gives us a frame of reference for the strength of modern weapons.

Stub gun != autogun.

A Stub weapon is inferior to an Autoweapon. Effectively, a stub weapon is pretty much exactly like modern weapons, while an autogun is far more advanced, a caseless fully automatic and highly reliable weapon of the future.

I completely agree but in game terms they still both have S3. Which is why I said equivalent.

Yes, and a scout outside of power armor has the same strength as a Marine inside it. So does a human in power armor and a human out. Even though power armor DOES enhance strength in both cases. And Orks are S3 standard unless they're charging, even though an Ork can easily rip a man's arms out of their socket and then pull his head off with a nice pop afterwards without breaking a sweat. "Strength 3" is a huge range. "Roughly" equivalent would be right... VERY roughly.

As said in another thread, if there were point fives, it would probably be 3.5 for ork strength, 2.5 for stub gun strength, and maybe 3.5 for autogun strength (don't quote me on this. I know somebody is gonna quote this and put it in their signature, just to spite me.)

after watching the military channel im 100% certain that our Artillery outclasses anything in the 40k universe though. Given the various gps targeting and techno sorcery surrounding them they can pick out targets quickly and accurately. Several pieces can be set up, place several rounds, pack up and leave in 15 minutes or less.

Ennkay wrote:after watching the military channel im 100% certain that our Artillery outclasses anything in the 40k universe though. Given the various gps targeting and techno sorcery surrounding them they can pick out targets quickly and accurately. Several pieces can be set up, place several rounds, pack up and leave in 15 minutes or less.

Imperial Guard artillery is also known for its accuracy and mobility. The difference is mostly that IG artillery has a far deadlier payload and has less care if they cause friendly casualties.

aka_mythos wrote: An IG squad has a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and 6 rifleman. A modern army squad is 8-16 with a designated marksmen, 2 machineguns, a number of auxiliary grenade launchers, at least two portable missiles, radios, hand grenades and a dedicated transports. In a battle they could do a little bit of everything even if they were eventually worn down.

Except, of course, there are about 40,000x more guard squads than Earth squads, and even going by the codex you could easily have a "squad" be a mob of 50 men with 5 heavy weapons, 5 assault weapons, and 5 tanks to rival the best Israeli offerings.

Melissia wrote:

Ennkay wrote:after watching the military channel im 100% certain that our Artillery outclasses anything in the 40k universe though. Given the various gps targeting and techno sorcery surrounding them they can pick out targets quickly and accurately. Several pieces can be set up, place several rounds, pack up and leave in 15 minutes or less.

Imperial Guard artillery is also known for its accuracy and mobility. The difference is mostly that IG artillery has a far deadlier payload and has less care if they cause friendly casualties.

they definitely do not care as much about friendly casualties, however the deadliness of the payload is arguable

No it isn't. Earthshaker rounds are quite well known for their incredible destructive power.

SmackCakes wrote:

raptor8 wrote:titans, long rang guns(the big guns) baneblades, shadow swords if the guardsmen were cadians it would be even worse for modern militarys

The only thing IG don't seem to have is nukes... Modern Humans win!

*slaps in the face with a deathstrike missile*

Yep. The Deathstrike missile is effectively an ICBM.

And the God-Emperor save you if they pull out a vortex deathstrike missile.