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Abaddon - So your going to rush a trygon with any BA unit? smartarse.
It will be going 1st, with enough attacks to cause serious damage.
You wont be wounding it easily due to T6, and you need power weps to remove its 3+
Not only that, but it has 6 wounds, re-rolls all misses and can gain FNP from a near by tervigon.
Attacking it with assault marines or DC is useless.
You would have to flood it with characters and sang guard and hope for the best.

Being a nid player (allways have been) ive never lost a trygon in combat except once, and that was after being charged by my friends 2 thirsters.
Its allways been taken out via shooting as its impossible to stay in combat all of the time.

Fex's arent so bad to fight in combat, but you have to make sure it will die befire it gets to fight back, or you will lose alot, very quickly.

Now thats 2 very common ones.
Tervigon can be assaulted by anything with power weps really, since its not a fighter bug.

Dont charge the swarmlord with anything, its just dumb since it has a 3+/4+ in combat, causes instant death on 3d6 LD tests, and generally has high S and WS.

Normal tyrants arent so bad, but usually have a whip, so you wont be going 1st.
If they have hive guard aswell dont bother assaulting, you will get whipped then torn apart.

Jack

yes. this is the blood angels unit i'd assault it with.
10 assault marines meltagun x2 power weapon
1 chaplain combi melta power weapon
1 sanguinary priest combi melta power weapon

meltagun attacks
4 x 2/3 = 3 (rounding)
3 x 5/6 = 3 wounds

normal attacks
25 x3/4 19 (rounding)
19 x1/3 = 6
6 x 1/3 = 2 wounds

power weapon attacks
13 x 3/4 = 9
9 x 1/3 = 3 wounds.

Its dead before it even swings.
throw in another blood angels assault squad and special character and even the mighty swarm lord is toast. tyranid monstrous creatures just dont have enough attacks to kill all thos space marines before they get pwned.
AF

"Launch missiles into anything bigger than a coke can."

Haha this is getting sig'd

Abaddon - Keep in mind thats with you assaulting 1st, and for some reason going 1st against a trygon.
With a unit that far outweighs the trygon for points.

Keep in mind it has a much better movement speed than you do, so it will be the one assaulting, so there goes your shots at it.
It will shoot then assault, meaning its going 1st in combat aswell.

12 shots from the prime will on average kill around a single marine with FNP.
You then get 7 S7 attacks at WS5, with no saves or FNP allowed, re-rolling any misses.

so your looking at:

7 attacks
5-6 hits
4-5 dead marines.

So thats a total of 6 dead marines, leaving you with 4 marines + chappy and priest left.
What will thier attacks do now they dont have the extra charge attack and have lost numbers?

They wont kill it, and in the next turn it will clean up pretty much all thats left.


Also, dont forget your throwing an expensive unit at it as it is.
If someone takes 3 trygon primes, you cant take 3 of that unit, you cant fit it into the FOC.

Your using up 2 elites and a troop, and pretty much 1/5 or so of your points against a cheap ish heavy support option.

So, how do you tackle a monster mash army with those units?

3 trygon primes, glands
hive tyrant
hive tyrant / swarmlord
3 harpies
Could even throw in some tervigons in a 2,000 point game.



Its all well and good saying xxxxx unit could kill it, but you need to look at the bigger pic here.
Units cost points, and when you start stacking those up just to kill 1 of a possible 8+ TMC's, your then lost for units.

Not only that, but who is going to let you near a trygon with a large unit? they will be shooting at you, and more than likely tarpit the unit before throwing the trygon at you.

Math-hammering something out is one thing, but make it equil points, then take into account how the rest of the army will effect it and you have a much better view of it.

This isnt a dig at you, its just something tons of people miss all of the time.
And being both a BA and a nid player, i know what to avoid and what to attack from both armies. (yet throw DE at me and i havent got a clue)

The best way to beat Nidz with BA is the multi assault. Basically what you want to do is hit as many units as possible in one big multi assault, your squads should be hitting more than one Nid unit each so that you link all your assaults into one huge scrum. Bring some Sanguinary Priests so that all your units have furious charge. It's very important to engage both gaunts/genestealers and monstrous creatures. Basically what happens is you will end up with a huge combat resolution in your favor (10-15+ wounds). I'm assuming that the Nidz will have synapse so then each Nid unit will have to take this massive amount of armor saves due to the No Retreat rule and they will die in droves, including the monstrous creatures. If done right it can gut the Nidz in one brutal turn.

G

one of the biggest advantages you have as BA vs Nids is the superior mobility of your basic troops. The aweseomeness of all the giant monster close combat shredders is diminishedif you use the terrain to your advantage and jump over stuff, or even just using your full movement in a lot of cases. Pick apart his less threatening units in cc and pour any of your high str low ap shots into the big guys so when you do bring the fight to them you will only need a single wound or two.
And librarians (as already stated, Mephiston is really good for this) can use their force weapons to snuff out all sorts of big scaries

Jack
why wouldnt I be assaulting it? I have jump packs it walks
why wouldnt I be going first? I'm init 5 (dont remember a trygons init off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure its not 5 or better)

I dont agree with your math on the prime. if you're hitting on 3's then 7 x 2/3 = 4 or 5 hits wounding on 2s 3-5 wounds storm shield on the sergeant anywhere from 2-5 dead marines.

The math isnt everything you're right but I think it's revealing. bug players dont have the kind of close combat superiority that their models and fluff leads them to expect.
AF

Agree with Slick and Black

Use your mobility to both make sure you get the charge and that it's a combat that you're OK with. It will only be a good idea to let him charge you if your in cover. If he's not used to a unit make sure it deals as much damage the first time before he realises how to counter it and does so. Make sure you have the right unit for the job as anti big bug units can deal with little bugs but it doesn't work the other way round without support.

why wouldnt I be assaulting it? I have jump packs it walks

You missed the packs out from your post, which adds the points up even more, comming on to around 500 or so now? (dont have the dex near me)
The trygon has fleet.

why wouldnt I be going first? I'm init 5

You are indeed, with FC.
If you get charged, your only I4, the prime would have FC aswell, boosting it from 4-5.

I dont agree with your math on the prime. if you're hitting on 3's then 7 x 2/3 = 4 or 5 hits wounding on 2s 3-5 wounds storm shield on the sergeant anywhere from 2-5 dead marines.

It would be hitting on 3's, and re-rolling all missed due to 2 sets of talons.
There is no storm shield, you also missed that from your post.


Abaddon, i think you need to post a list of what this Deathstar unit actually has, rather than adding as you go along, without telling anyone else or posting it.

You must be getting on for 1/4 of a 2k list by now, in which case, ill just throw in 2 trygon primes with adrenals to make it even on points.



To be honest, i rather sit back with 2 units of sternguard and make use of the special ammo.
with 2 units you can drop a trygon each turn with relative ease.





BBF: As allways, your theories on running BA's are pretty much without flaw.
Nice to see a BA player that uses such tactics.

Agree with BBF on the multi assaulting... the same goes for ork boyz... you may not do a ton of damage to either of your opponents after attacks... but the combat resolution will maul them horribly. The biggest fear nids have is having gaunts mixed in an assault with a tyrant or any big bug... you just focus the little gaunts and watch the big bugs go pop.

As long as you have priests nearby or mixed in your squads you will take VERY little damage from the horde portion of nids. The only thing that could stop you is if you let him get good assaults with trygons on you.

Another way to drop the nids is if you are unable to assault him in your turn.. But he will most likely be able to assault you in yours.. Hop into some area terrain and shoot him. There are very very very few units with offensive grenades in the nid book so most units will be striking at initiative 1.

Thanks for the help guys. This has given me tons of new ideas to play around with

Thanks for the kudos Jack. It's appreciated.

G

Jack
sorry I wasnt clear about the unit composition. This is what a bug player can expect to get charged by against an (experienced) blood angels player.

- assault marines (should) always have jump packs
- pretty much whenever you can buy a storm shield you do.
- if the priest isnt in the unit he's nearby, hence furious charge.
- librarians and chaplains are both cheap independent characters that confer preferred enemy on the unit they join, hence I assume preferred enemy also.

my point is that blood angels can whip bugs in close combat. they have ferocious cc units and better mobility so they can concentrate their force and rely on preferred enemy, furious charge, and bugs general lack of invulnerable saves to whip all the nasty toughness 6 guys. like trygons. If you want to look at something approximately equivalent to the trygon's cost (still a little more) look at a Blood angels honor guard squad with power weapons jump packs and storm shields. Again the trygon is history.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:- assault marines (should) always have jump packs

A great many talented tourney regulars disagree with you. Assault marines in fact can also take a discounted fast razorback with lascannons and twin-linked plasma.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:- pretty much whenever you can buy a storm shield you do.

Again, most players I know are buying inferno pistols or hand flamers in addition to their power fists, not storm shields.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:- librarians and chaplains are both cheap independent characters that confer preferred enemy on the unit they join, hence I assume preferred enemy also.

Most librarians take shield of sanguinius and either blood lance or fear of the darkness. No one I know takes chaplains.

What you are really saying is that blood angels armies that are tooled out for pure close combat can beat tyranid armies that are NOT tooled out for pure close combat.

Mechanized blood angels lists and even drop and shoot blood angels list get smeared by trygons. Mephiston is handled either through a deathleaper shadow in the warp combination while fighting lash whip equipped tyrants, and the rest can get smothered by a stream of cheap fearless termagants.

If you want to tool up on storm shields, power fists and jump packs you might be unafraid of a little nid CC, but what are you going to do against a gunline?

I think the Librarians are highly overrated... low number of attacks and no invulnerable save unless you pay lots of points. The Chaplain is the better choice.

Does the deathleaper -d3 ld power affect non IC units?

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Does the deathleaper -d3 ld power affect non IC units?

Being discussed again here. I say yes, Deathleaper's rule affects characters--it does not specify IC.

Mephiston is not a character hence it does not affect him. He is a unit of one.

G

He is unique.
Unique models are characters.
(See the rules for Unique)

Editing to add:
I did start by saying it is being discussed . . . and in YMDC, even.

Yeah keep that in YMDC. There is no need to discuss it here.

G

Shep
you said: "a great many talented tourny players disagree with you"
who?

you said: "Again, most players I know are buying inferno pistols or hand flamers in addition to their power fists, not storm shields."
who?

you said: "What you are really saying is that blood angels armies that are tooled out for pure close combat can beat tyranid armies that are NOT tooled out for pure close combat."

ummm.... more or less yeah. if you go back to my 1st few comments you'll see that's basically what I said. alot of bug players think that because they're playing bugs they're unbeatable in close combat. it ain't so. I dont know why anyone would build a non-close combat oriented blood angels force but if they did then I guess it would be different. I think it's safe to assume that if someone is playing blood angels they're playing a close combat oriented army. Their fluff, models, and rules all encourage assaults over shooting.

that being said even if the bugs do tool up for close combat blood angels can win. The last time I played bugs I whipped the swarm lord and his bodyguard with 2 squads of assault marines 1 chaplain 1 librarian. The bug codex has a couple of units that are really hard core in close combat the rest of them are actually pretty tame.

I dont think blood angels have to fear anybody in close combat right now. not if they get the charge.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To your last question Shep if everyone has a jump pack the whole army has descent of angels. If I have 40+ marines with feel no pain 4+ cover an 18" charge and 10+ melta weapons I don't have much to fear from their shooting. Some guys will die but the majority will strike next turn.
AF

I do know this... A BA army tooled for cc will beat the tar out of a nid army tooled for cc.

G

yah

Jump troops....flamer and melta.....

SM 10-20 meat sheild to keep em buisy, keep it cheap.

Devestator squads armed with ML/Plasma.

Land Raiders.

Whrilwinds are great too.

Land Raider lotsa bolters/flamers

That should help a Blood Angel army very well

Does he have a Tyrannofex?

If he does not have at least 1 Tyrannofex, I would fit the following into your list:

Reclusiarch
15 Death Company with 2 Fists
Land Raider Crusader

When they get the charge, they will utterly crush any units they contact with massive multi assaults, even MCs. WS5 and rerolls mean they hit 90% of the time against WS3 or lower and 75% versus WS5 or higher. Even against T6, with furious charge and rerolls they're wounding 2/3s of the time.

If he doesn't have reliable non-assault AV14 killing capacity, a massive DC squad is the sort of fire and forget tactical nuke that you can simply unleash on his army while maneuvering and shooting with the rest of your stuff.

If he does take several Tyrannofexes, then this isn't a great unit to field, but based on what you've said so far, I don't see a problem with plopping down the Fun Bus.

A plain old librarian with a jump pack does great against nids and all other armies. An all comers jump infantry really needs psychic defense, and there are only 2 choices. A jump librarian or Mephiston. Mephiston has his merits when fighting a CC army or a hybrid cc/gunline, but he is double the cost of a jump librarian and is an excessive waste of points when fighting gunlines. A jump spam BA list really does need psychic defense when fighting eldar, tyranids, or chaos, to not have any physic hoods is to invite disaster. When it comes down to it Mephiston and a Plain jump librarian are both excellent choices, so it all comes down to where the BA player wants to spend points and their playstyle.

2 wounds and no invo is rarely a problem if the librarian is played right. As an IC the librarian can detach from a damaged squad and reattach to a full strength squad. As long as the squad with the IC has a cover save from other jump squads in front a 3+ armor 4+ cover FNP squad is very difficult to kill, thus the librarian is difficult to kill.

As far as powers go I have found shield of Sanguinis and unleash rage to be the most effective in an all comers list.

The primary reason why I favor a plain jump librarian over mephiston is mephiston doesn't have shield of Sanguinis. Shield isn't a very good choice when fighting nids as only Zoeys ignore power armor at range, but it's absolutely vital when fighting other armies. If the other army can spit out a large volume of AP2 or AP3 firepower shield of Sanguinis is absolutely vital for an all comers list.

Unleash rage is the other must have power. The loss of Mephiston hurts in CC, but a librarian with unleash rage can make a lot of that up. The librarian, a sanguinary priest with a power weapon, and an IC like Dante can all detach from their squads and reattach to a unit of Sanguinary Guard before charging an enemy unit. The Sanguinary Guard with a Chapter Banner will give every attached IC an additional attack, and combined with the librarian's unleash rage the unit becomes a deathstar. The librarian and SP will have a combined 10 power weapon attacks at WS5 S5 with rerolls to hit, Dante would be up to 7 attacks with rerolls to hit, and the Sanguinary guard would have rerolls to hit. It's a good solid hammer.

One can argue the Mephiston is conditionally better, but when facing a gunline with a lot of AP2/AP3 one can argue that a Librarian with shield of Sanguinis is conditionally better. The end result is both choices are excellent solid choices for an all comers list with each being better under certain conditions.