Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grey Templar wrote:People, read your Space Marine codex.

There is more to the fluff than just the Space Marine codex.

Grey Templar wrote:
"Artificer armor is forged by master craftsmen and is even more Ancient and Ornate then a normal suit of power armor" - 4ed marine codex.

This doesn't contradict the more longer established notion that they are assembled through the addition of upgrades and honors onto a suit of marine armor. Even by that reasoning the oldest functioning suit will have become artificer armor.

Grey Templar wrote:
Artificer armor may be reproducable, but it is rare for anyone to do so. most suits are a collection of different marks. look at captain Sicarius's suit. it has a MkII Pauldron and lower half, a MkIII Breastplate with a Gorget added from a MkVIII. aside from the Helmet and Gorget every piece is from older marks.

There is a difference between reproducable and just produced. Each suit is a unique cobbling of old armor, ornamentations, and relics. The nature of Artificer armor is that it is the oldest, this doesn't disqualify MkVII or MkVIII from becoming artifcer armor, they just haven't been around long enough. Power armor can be made, but Artificer armor is a relic uniquely produced over life times.

Grey Templar wrote:
TDA is NOT easily made. Lexicanum says most "New" suits are made from scavenged pieces of terminator armor. the Artificers go out of their way to not make new suits. New pieces are made as needed and only after laborious searching to find existing pieces.

What you say though is correct for Terminator armor. New suits of Terminator armor can not be made. Just in the founding and re-equipping of the Grey Knights, to allow them as many Terminator squads as they had, required Terminator armor be taken from atleast 7 chapters (don't ask me how that was accomplished, but its the fluff.) Terminator armor is overtly bulky and as such you would never simply replace one material for another, if it meant it would have to be drastically thicker, thus it can not solely be material difference that gives it better protection.

Grey Templar wrote:
Adamentium is the metal i was talking about earlier.TDA incorporates Adamentium into its make up. older Marks of PA also had it, but MksVII and VIII do not. MkVI was a bridgeway Mk between Aquila and Heresy patterns having pieces common to both. my references are from the HH books i have read as well as Lexicanum.

Adamantium maybe present, but Ceramite has always been the material component in the armor plating. Terminator armor is a bit of a different beast then Artificer armor. At some point, Terminator armor was built and was as powerful at is today (maybe more so) Artificer armor wasn't. The origins just help point to the fact that it isn't as simple as saying "adamanteum". A component of Terminator armor defenses come from the large power pack that allows it to generate a protective energy field. Now maybe there is something to it. Adamantium is suppose to present in all power armor and since cerimite is the shell, we can assume Adamantium is the frame. Now maybe the metalurgy in the Impeirum is inconsitent enought that older armor has a better predisposition for becoming Artificer armor beyond their age.

Here is the simple proof to why MkII, MkIII, MkIV, and MkV are not synonymous to Artificer armor. The number one users of those armors do not benefit from a arificer armor equivalent armor save. Chaos Space marines, aside from what they loot or get from the traitors that come over to their side, they mostly use Heresy and Pre-Heresy armor.

Actually, that's right. If all of the earliest marks were artificer armour, then CSM would be bat-sh*t hard to kill due to their 2+ armour save. They don't have this, because the earlier armour marks have their own inherent weaknesses, and I'm not just talking about a lack of advanced targeting.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Actually, that's right. If all of the earliest marks were artificer armour, then CSM would be bat-sh*t hard to kill due to their 2+ armour save. They don't have this, because the earlier armour marks have their own inherent weaknesses, and I'm not just talking about a lack of advanced targeting.

Well, also, they seem to have a lot of different types of armour on them from different Mks, so they might just be incompatible, which makes them weaker. I don't know.

True, they do spend a lot of time stealing other's people's armour. However, I remember there being something in the previous CSM codex about the later marks of armour being highly coveted amongst the Traitor Legions (or what's left of them) which would suggest superiority over the earlier marks of armour.

Clearly MKI and MKII are NOT technologically equal to MKIII+, and MKIII, MKIV and MKV have some fairly glaring weakness as well.

Actually, MKVI probably falls into the 'too many exposed cables in bad places' category too.

I don't think there is any doubt at all that the later marks are, in fact, better, all the way up to the best, MKVIII, which is only limited in that it requires a new helmet design, and does not allow the use of MKVI helmets.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:True, they do spend a lot of time stealing other's people's armour. However, I remember there being something in the previous CSM codex about the later marks of armour being highly coveted amongst the Traitor Legions (or what's left of them) which would suggest superiority over the earlier marks of armour.

Yes. I agree. That's in the current dex. They much prefer MkVII, which is represented on the models. The often have heads,legs and shoulder pads from MkVII and chests and arms from earlier marks.

I'm sure they'res a large portion of CSM that have the older marks too though. There are just no models for them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:Clearly MKI and MKII are NOT technologically equal to MKIII+, and MKIII, MKIV and MKV have some fairly glaring weakness as well.

Actually, MKVI probably falls into the 'too many exposed cables in bad places' category too.

I don't think there is any doubt at all that the later marks are, in fact, better, all the way up to the best, MKVIII, which is only limited in that it requires a new helmet design, and does not allow the use of MKVI helmets.

What? I thought the only difference between MkVII and MkVIII is the raised neck thing?

Well, aside from the backpacks, which are very not MkVII. And I think some of the helmets and torsos are meant to be older too.

Samus_aran115 wrote:What? I thought the only difference between MkVII and MkVIII is the raised neck thing?

I suggest you look at the concept artwork for the MkVIII its easier to see the intended differences, as opposed to how they watered the MkVIII down to work with the plastic kit.

The artwork shows many more changes to the armor.

The differences are the neck collar, the reinforced torso conduits, the reinforced ankles, a thicker belt, a modified helmet, the arms were meant to resemble a powerfist (without being powerfists), and the backpack has heat sinks added across the top of the large thermal vents.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:True, they do spend a lot of time stealing other's people's armour. However, I remember there being something in the previous CSM codex about the later marks of armour being highly coveted amongst the Traitor Legions (or what's left of them) which would suggest superiority over the earlier marks of armour.

Yes. I agree. That's in the current dex. They much prefer MkVII, which is represented on the models. The often have heads,legs and shoulder pads from MkVII and chests and arms from earlier marks.

I'm sure they'res a large portion of CSM that have the older marks too though. There are just no models for them

If you have access to Jes Goodwin's Gothic and Eldritch art book, his concept art for the 2nd-3rd edition Chaos Marines actually goes into detail about the combination of armor combination the big 4 god specific legions typically use. Specifying the the Plague marines as largely MkIII, with MkVI and MkVII upgrades... that Khorne Bezerkers are largely modified MkV, Emperors Children MkIV, MkV, and MkVI.... etc. So there are some models that represent aspects of the mix-matched armor. I think the simple fact is that components are generally similar enough that at the 40k scale aspect of the details required to distinguished them are inadequate with out the context that they are mixed and matched.

Yeah, actually I would have said that marks II and backwards would actually be a lot rarer in the Traitor legions than any other mark, due to the fact that most legions were fully equipped with Heresy-mark armour by the time of said event, I think. Besides, who would genuinely want to wear Thunder Armour if they could get their hands on a suit of MkV or better?

Older, broken down suit, are saved and used as parts for other suits. Artficer armor might be fitted with reworked components of such a suit that bears some importance to the chapter. Unlike any other armor, almost every suit of Thunder Armour stood in the presence of the Emperor. I think there are few things as significant as having some of the Emperor's mojo rub off on some armor.

I always imagined it as the sort of less sophisticated, rugged, and lighter armor that some 10th company Captain might wear, to keep up and ride with scouts and yet be afforded a higher level of protection. No surprise my Raven Guard 10th company command squad is converted to wearing Thunder Armor.

Otherwise I imagine it would be a largely cermonial piece.

Well, for the CSM, surely the presence of the Emperor is less of a factor? They do hate him, after all.

Maybe they'd enjoy corrupting it more

True, but I still couldn't see them wearing it. After all, even the loyalist chapters wouldn't actually wear the suit if they thought it was a holy relic. They'd worship it or something. CSM would probably defile it, then leave it where everyone can see the defilement.

Not only do the loyalist chapters wear thunder armor they go to war in it it is considered good mojo to be allowed to wear this armor and some chapters have ritual combat to have the honor of wearing it.

Seriously? They wear the out-of-date not-even-Power-Armour? Good god. SM's must be hardcore indeed.

Not as hardcore as Guard if you look at it that way

Indeed, Guard must be the most hardcore of all.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Well, for the CSM, surely the presence of the Emperor is less of a factor? They do hate him, after all.

That was just an example. The armor may have been worn by some long dead warrior of the chapter or was present at a particular important moment in the chapters history. In the religious 40k universe such occurances imbue armor with seemingly supernatural auras of protection.

In this instance you need to think of it less scientifically and more supernaturally. Its much like how the Spear of Longinus that pierced the side of Jesus is believed to be imbued with the unnatural ability to lead the army of the bearer to victory.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Seriously? They wear the out-of-date not-even-Power-Armour? Good god. SM's must be hardcore indeed.

Even if there are full suits of Mk1 armor floating around, you don't have to assume the full suits are worn beyond special situations. I can think of a couple: ceremonial, thats straight forward; tank driver, if your chapter has a limited number of power armor, the marine who drives the tank maybe able to get along with less power armor; scout command, where the lighter more robust ease of repair due to the less sophisticated parts lend its self to the more detatched operations.

Beyond that MkI armor really only exist in the practice the fluff has noted that often portions of older armor of religious significants to the chapter are often awarded as honors. So MkI armor may still be floating around as parts of a marine's armor. Now this doesn't mean they're utilizing the parts as they are provided. The fact is they're relics; but like the relics medieval crusaders carried they are incorporated as a reliquary or more superficially incorporated.

For example imagine Brother Caecius is honored, given a piece of armor from the suit warn by the chapters founder; being a piece of MkI armor, his Artisan retainer who maintains his armor then incoporates it into his armor by taking a MkVI shoulder pad Brother Caecius normally wears, layering and bonding the onrnamented plastisteel layers of the MkI on to the MkVI shoulder pad. If that happend a 100 times over a distinguished career, you end up with artificer armor. I'd suspect this is the main way MkI armor has been utilized.

Okay, that makes sense. It would be a lot more in keeping if they were attached to the suit as a relic, or a blessing.