Astartes Power Armour and STCs

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**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Now, it's well known that most of the Imperium's technology either is an STC or is a very conservatively modified one. However, reading into the background of Astartes power armour, it seems to me that this type of armour was in fact an invention rather than a discovery, or at least a massive modification of what had gone before (as technically thunder armour was only half-recognisable as power armour)
This would fit with the general stuff about the SM, as to be fair a lot of their kit is non-standard in origin, such as the Predator Annihilator, which could also be classed as a sort-of invention.

What does Dakka think? Oh, and sorry if this thread topic has cropped up before.

**reds8n**

Sounds about right. I'm fairly certain that it's well established that as the Great Crusade uncovered more lost technology and ideas these were incorporated into later versions of the armour.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

That would make sense, considering there's about 9 or so marks of the stuff. Stands to reason they found cool gubbins to put in it each time.

**SilverMK2**

I seem to remember reading some fluff which said that the people (I think it was some guardsmen) who discovered an STC which detailed how to make stronger combat knives were given a planet each to rule over as their reward.

The power armour itself may well have started out as a home brew invention by the Emp (after all, the death guard (pre SM death guard) had powered armour made by the primarch) and been added to with bits and pieces of surviving STC tech as they went along.

There probably is an STC somewhere with a fully fledged power armour design on it that would blow SM armour out of the water.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

I'm pretty sure Thunder Armour was that STC. I mean, it was in common use.

**Just Dave**

Actually, i thought Thunder Armour was invented then improved upon via the STC's.
Maybe the Emperor had seen the Power Armour STC before and tried to 'copy' it. Not doing such a good job until they found the real deal?

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Well, Thunder Armour was basically a techno-barbarian weapon that the Emperor borrowed to use on his first Astartes, as I understand it. He then had the folks on Mars improve it to create Power Armour. Or so lexicanum says. It really depends on how accurate that is.

**nosferatu1001**

Also given that tales of heresy seems to indicate the emperor has been around since the frst Crusader, Thunder Armour may not have been "invented" by him so much as remembered / reconstructed out of available materials and techniques.

**Ruckdog**

Well, one of the first HH books (don't remember which one) describes an encounter where Horus's fleet finds a planet that has soldiers clad in power armor that was eerily similiar to that worn by the Astartes. This certainly suggests that there was some kind of Power Armor STC out there. I highly doubt that STC would have rendered aromor that is significantly more effective than what the SM are wearing in the "current" day, though.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also given that tales of heresy seems to indicate the emperor has been around since the frst Crusader, Thunder Armour may not have been "invented" by him so much as remembered / reconstructed out of available materials and techniques.

That's what I said. Seems that this is probably the most likely thing.

**Wyvern**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:This would fit with the general stuff about the SM, as to be fair a lot of their kit is non-standard in origin, such as the Predator Annihilator

Annihilators are STC's. Just because they arent a standard Predator, doesnt mean they arent an STC. Even the Baal is an STC, but the Blood Angels wont let any other Chapters have the STC, so only they have the Baal.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Actually, the Annihilator isn't an STC, it's a modification. It was modified by Space Wolf Iron Priests and nearly caused a war between the Wolves and the AdMech.

**Cambak**

SilverMK2 wrote:I seem to remember reading some fluff which said that the people (I think it was some guardsmen) who discovered an STC which detailed how to make stronger combat knives were given a planet each to rule over as their reward.

That would be one of the Gaunts Ghost's books.

**SmackCakes**

I seem to recall somewhere in the first Space Hulk fluff that TDA was developed first to be the standard armour worn by all marines. But it proved too bulky and expensive to mass produce, so power armour was then developed.

Of course whether or not that is still cannon is anyone's guess.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Probably been retconned since then. Pity, really.

**grisnag**

SmackCakes 2010/08/03 00:01:40 Subject: Re:Astartes Power Armour and STCs

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I seem to recall somewhere in the first Space Hulk fluff that TDA was developed first to be the standard armour worn by all marines. But it proved too bulky and expensive to mass produce, so power armour was then developed.

Of course whether or not that is still cannon is anyone's guess.

Yes I can recall that too

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

So essentially TDA came first, followed by Power Armour? Cool. That explains why Terminator armour is so revered, if it's that much of a relic.

**del'Vhar**

I was under the impression that TDA could no longer be made due to lack of its STC, hence the current marine codex stating that they would risk hundreds of men to recover some

**Grey Templar**

NO, power armor came first.

Most TDA is older then existing suits of Armor because most existing suits are from after the Heresy.

MkII "Crusade" was the first true power armor, but it was little more then a enclosed vacum suit with some minor targeting and comm systems as well as the Sensory enhancement systems.

MkIII "Iron" armor(as well as the Crusade pattern) incorperates a large amount of rare metal into the main plates providing great amounts of protection from the front then Crusade. Did not replace Crusade, but was simply used as assault troop armor.

MkIV "Maximus" used the same matierials as the "Iron" pattern, but was a refinement of the overall design to maximise the protection with the avaliable matierials.

MkV (so called Heresy pattern because it was the most common in use by the time of the Heresy)was developed because not enough of the "Iron" and "Maximus" suits could be made for the growing numbers of Space Marines as the metal was scarce. the compromise in protection vs production ability was the characteristic Studs found on heresy plates. the Studs provide nearly the same amount of protection as the full plates, but using far less of the metal.

All these suits are the Marks making up the collective group of Artificer armor. the 2+ save is provided by the rare metals making up the composition.

later Marks have less of the metal and as such have a poorer save.

MkVII was developed shortly before and during the Heresy.

Terminator armor is difficult to produce, but not impossable. new suits are unheard of, most of the time it is a single piece.

Terminator armor was developed shortly before the Heresy using Dreadnought, power armor, and hostile enviroment engineer suits.

as such suits of Artificer armor will indeed be older then terminator armor.

**aka_mythos**

Grey Templar wrote:
All these suits are the Marks making up the collective group of Artificer armor. the 2+ save is provided by the rare metals making up the composition.

Umm thats not right. Artificer armor though older isn't just an older "off the shelf" suit of power armor. While a suit of Artificer armor could be based on those older marks it does not necessarily have to be. Artificer armor are "masterpieces," in the classical sense; a unique suit of armor made by a Techpriest/Techmarine/Artisan as proof of their skill. As a marine gains honor, a techpriest will modify a marines armor with honors and modifications to his armor. Those modifications that utilize rarer resources are what turn a suit of power armor into Artificer armor. That said it could very well be the use of rare materials or internal geometry or any other method to improve its protective ability; isn't specifically attributed to a "metal," since power armor's armor plates are suppose to be a cera-metal alloy with a low level hardening energy field.

With in the Imperium it may take an individual Techpriest a decade to produce an individual suit of armor, artificer armor is built over a life time.

The GW articles on power armor has been paraphrased on Lexicanum: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour
The biggest thing you've got wrong is the "inferior" nature of Mk6, Mk7, and Mk8 power armor. For example the Mk6 was the end result of the research developement that the Mk4 resulted as production prototype from. And the Mk7 and Mk8 are suppose to be refinements to that design adding additional plates to cover the more easily damaged components under additional armor.

**EarlyEscaper**

what mythos said

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

I would agree with aka_mythos, it would seem logical for later marks to be better than their predecessors, as they incorporate more advanced biomechanical interfaces (whatever that actually means) and targeting systems.

**aka_mythos**

Something to consider... Even though the imperium is in a technological dark age that limits the vast majority of their technology from developing, just like the medieval dark ages, armor was so crucial that despite the limitations of resources armor still saw innovation, albeit rudementary ones. The different variants of Marine power armor mirror this; materials haven't changed, most components haven't changed, and the innovations are rather basic limited to the number of redundancies and the thickness and layering of the materials.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Even so, the armour would have been improved with the advancement of the marks. It just doesn't make sense to create an update that is worse than the previous suit.

**aka_mythos**

That's implicit to what I was saying. Even still in the fluff there are mentions of changes being driven by loss of capabilities, such as going from the MkIV to MkV, the design went from one respirator to a double respirator because the capability of producing the more sophisticated single respirator was lost. In this area the MkVI reverts to one because of the need for quanitity over quality during the Heresy, but by the MkVII we again see the double respirator. Point being depite these sorts of changes none have been so drastic as to reduce protective performance. By MkVIII its obviously a step up in sophisitcation over the MkVII and to a degree that its now the exclusive power armor of the Grey Knights. An elite task force would never take lower quality equipment, which only supports the notion that MkVIII is superior, showing a lineage of improvements not decline.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Okay, so essentially, the changes in marks are generally not so much advancement as necessity, but there have been overall improvements.
In that case, not only is Power Armour a non-STC, it also has evolved throughout the ages, unlike a lot of the other stuff the Imperium uses.

**aka_mythos**

Correct. It is one of the few thriving areas of Imperial research.

This is not to say that components of the armor can not be STC designs. A particular fibrous-metal muscle servo that appears in 20 locations in a given suit could infact be an STC design that is cranked out at some consistent pace. In much the same way the reliance on older armors for spare parts can be attributed to supply not meeting demand, or just the outright loss of an STC template for a particular "signal relay module" or other part. Power armor is in many ways more sophisticated than a Rhino. A Rhino is a single STC but something like power armor, which is more complicated maybe an assemblage of STC template components.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

That would make a lot of sense, especially if Thunder Armour was an STC that the Emperor modified to create his early suits of Power Armour. I could envisage them adding new functions to the suits as they discovered more relevant STCs.

**Samus_aran115**

del'Vhar wrote:I was under the impression that TDA could no longer be made due to lack of its STC, hence the current marine codex stating that they would risk hundreds of men to recover some

I'm pretty sure TDA is easily made. Expensive, but easily made. It's not really that different from power armor, it just has more metal and dakka strapped on it

**Grey Templar**

People, read your Space Marine codex.

"Artificer armor is forged by master craftsmen and is even more Ancient and Ornate then a normal suit of power armor" - 4ed marine codex.

Artificer armor may be reproducable, but it is rare for anyone to do so. most suits are a collection of different marks. look at captain Sicarius's suit. it has a MkII Pauldron and lower half, a MkIII Breastplate with a Gorget added from a MkVIII. aside from the Helmet and Gorget every piece is from older marks.

the same goes for terminator armor.

TDA is NOT easily made. Lexicanum says most "New" suits are made from scavenged pieces of terminator armor. the Artificers go out of their way to not make new suits. New pieces are made as needed and only after laborious searching to find existing pieces.

Adamentium is the metal i was talking about earlier.TDA incorporates Adamentium into its make up. older Marks of PA also had it, but MksVII and VIII do not. MkVI was a bridgeway Mk between Aquila and Heresy patterns having pieces common to both. my references are from the HH books i have read as well as Lexicanum.

the one thing newer marks are supierior in is the Integrated systems within the armor. better targeting, life support, and comm systems.