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Gitsplitta wrote: What is "legal" is what I can field without anyone's permission, which I think is what Luna is after...

Which is nothing.

The entire game is a contract between two players. You agree to use a given set of rules.

No matter how 'legal' you think a given option may be, you're not going to be able to use it in a friendly game if an opponent decides he doesn't want to play against it. You can't force someone to play by the rules you want to use.

There is nothing set in stone about Forgeworld rules because there doesn't need to be. They're valid in tournament games if the TO decides to use them, and they're valid in friendly games if you and your opponent agree to use them.

I did a LOT of research on this, and even sent an e-mail to GW about it a month ago; but they didn't respond. I think what the OP was likely concerned about, as was I, that I would invest in 4 Thudd Guns for my DKoK army and then have people tell me they weren't "legal". Since I never got a response from GW I polled 3 of the local gaming stores in my area, in a very casual fashion. I mentioned that I was wanting to start a DKoK army, and was checking how players felt about facing an army like that.

The response was almost completely YES, DO IT as almost everyone loved the idea of seeing more ForgeWorld stuff on the table. People do, at least in my area, want to see new and creative armies on the table. There was ONE guy, in the next town over that said no, that the units were typically overpowered, and he didn't show up to lose to ForgeWorlds representation of the rules.

I respected that opinion, however, all three stores said they would not only allow them, they encourage people to use them, just not in tournaments. Not surprising at my local FLGS, as the owner has about 6 Warhounds and a Reaver himself.

I think, summarily, that if you're a tournament gamer, or a min-maxer beardy type, you would inherently have a problem with anything that was not straight codex (as if those are balanced lol). If you're a casual player like myself, and have almost no interest in tournaments, then FW is definitely acceptable. Most of the community is casual, after all. Tournaments are weekly, but casual gaming is daily.

I know you didn't want a debate, but until GW answers my e-mail on the matter, it's the best I have.

Kanluwen wrote:

Joetaco wrote:I'd say using a Forge World thing breaks the rules of using "official" GW things because the forge world things don't say they're official GW. Albeit I am using the dumb argument, "it doesn't say they are so they're not" GW does label things it wants in rulebooks and Codices such as the Deathspinnner. I see using the Forge World books akin to using the Apocalypse book or another codex in addition to your own, sure you can, but there's a time and place to use them which is not in a regular (not exactly friendly)game.

You've never actually read a Forge World book, have you?

One of the first things it says is that they're "official" GW products, and Codex legal.
As HBMC and Ph3ar said:
It's completely 100% legal to use, without having to ask permission, for regular games. However, it's considered poor form amongst gamers to just suddenly spring something like that on someone without any warning or even letting them see the rules/book. It leaves a window open for you to make crap up as you go along to ensure a win.

The only caveat about the legality is that tournament organizers can disallow them, just like they can with any other codex.

I don't like quoting myself, but I'm going to do it because this is the only real position that exists.

Games Workshop is not going to confirm or deny it one way or the other, because there's no reason to. The Forge World books say they're fully balanced and usable in standard 40k games. But again:

It's completely 100% legal to use, without having to ask permission, for regular games. However, it's considered poor form amongst gamers to just suddenly spring something like that on someone without any warning or even letting them see the rules/book. It leaves a window open for you to make crap up as you go along to ensure a win.

The only caveat about the legality is that tournament organizers can disallow them, just like they can with any other codex.

Kanluwen wrote:this is the only real position that exists.

No, it's not. It's extremely arrogant to think this. And we've already seen several examples in this thread that other positions exist, so you can't even use this tiny thread to back up this claim.

In fact, just to put you in your place, I'm going to disagree with you.

ForgeWorld is not and never should be legal in any sense. I will immediately decline any request for a game from anyone who uses ForgeWorld minis and ForgeWorld rules, going so far as to refuse to accept a DKoK army that "counts as" normal Guardsmen.

There, another position exists. What now?

SaintHazard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:this is the only real position that exists.

No, it's not. It's extremely arrogant to think this. And we've already seen several examples in this thread that other positions exist, so you can't even use this tiny thread to back up this claim.

In fact, just to put you in your place, I'm going to disagree with you.

ForgeWorld is not and never should be legal in any sense. I will immediately decline any request for a game from anyone who uses ForgeWorld minis and ForgeWorld rules, going so far as to refuse to accept a DKoK army that "counts as" normal Guardsmen.

There, another position exists. What now?

Your position is crap, as is your attempted "argument".

The official GW stance is that the Army Book takes precedence over the rulebook.

Guess what the FW books are?
Campaign books with an Army Book included.

The, again, only caveat is that most people will like to be warned ahead of time that you're going to be using it and having the rules available for them to get acclimated to--and that Tournament Organizers can opt to discount Forge World for the sake of running an easily managed tournament.

You didn't put diddily in place other than your foot in your mouth.

Well done on saying exactly nothing.

If we're going to play with semantics here, fine. GW's stance is actually that the codex takes precedence over the core rulebook.

FW has never published a codex.

So, by fixing some of the things you just entirely incorrectly attempted to parrot, I've essentially nullified your argument and in fact turned it against you. One word changed and bam, your argument means the exact opposite of what you intended.

If you want to maintain that there's only one stance, fine. There it is. You said it yourself, I just corrected the incorrect terminology.

Except that's not the incorrect terminology, and it proves that you've never actually read any of the more recent FW books. Post-IA4/5, it notes that the book's army list uses the Codex costs where there's nothing listed.

Which means it's a sublist of the actual codex.

Try again.

in friendy games: Yes, if your opponent agrees that FW stuff is OK. this may sound silly, but this whole game is by permission of the opponent. you have both agreed to play 40k, you have non-verbally agreed to use GW codecies(SM, BT, DH, WH, Eldar, BA, SW, DA, T'au, IG, DE, Orks, Tyranids) you must therefor verbally agree to allow FW rules(Models are exempt if being used as "Counts as" or they are simply Resin versions of GW models)

in Tournaments: Maybe, depends. if the Tournament allows FW models and Rules then yes. if not then no.


it is really simple.

most people will have no problem in friendly games, but you should ask.

If it "uses the codex costs" it isn't automatically a sublist of the codex, it means it refers to the codex in passing. I'm not even sure how this mind-bending alien logic came to be.

That's like saying that if it's white like that horse over there, it's a horse, even if it goes moo. Which is, frankly, something a four-year-old can work out as untrue.

So are you saying that if stadium lights light up, they're desk lamps? Or if "omnibus" has the words "omni" and "bus" in it, that's a form of public transportation that can carry anything? Or if this piece of rope is ten feet long, anything that is ten feet in length is a rope?

That's infant logic.

Not real world logic.

Are you an infant? You're sounding more like one by the minute.

Now I'm going to sleep. Try not to hurt your brain writing your next inflammatory, infantile post.

Thanks.

croggy wrote:they are in effect a 'fandex'

If FW units are fandex units, then all units are fandex units. FW = GW.

Equal, but seperate.

FW is a company that is owned by GW.


FW has its own Design corps and Sculpters that make its models.

FW is sort of the Rolls Royce of 40K minis. they are another supplier of models that happen to use the same set of basic rules as GW models.


There is NO reason, in my mind, for an opponent to disallow FW models and rules simply on the grounds they "aren't Official", now if you think the Profile and Pts cost makes it unbalanced then you have a reason. otherwise i would say you are just being a Jerk.


FW can also be seen as a "Testing ground" for GWs ideas. some FW models have become GW made and allowed products. Stompas are an example.

SaintHazard, Kanluwen... We're talking about toy soldiers here. If you can't do so in a civil fashion, then don't post.

Consider this the first and final warning. Continuing down the path you two are currently on is likely to see you taking a holiday.

So, how does this fit in with the suggestion in the core book for you to make your own scenarios above and beyond the "official" GW ones (and even has some samples)?

Really, the use of FW models and rules are no different than agreeing to those kind of rules or, even agreeing on what terrain on the table does what.

So it seems that

At tournaments you can use what the TO states is allowed

In friendlies there's nothing stopping you using FW, but people may decline you, and it's polite to let them know beforehand

they're not legal.

they'd be considered in GW approved codeci then.

they can't be considered basic games since they have their own supplement

but, things like mods and cool versions of tanks are fine.

FW rules are not allowed in almost any tournament. That leaves friendly games.
Ever tried to force someone to play with you a 40k game who doesn't want to? If he says "No", what would you do? Sue him? Punish him with the red plastic stick? There is no way to force someone to play with infantry against your shiny Titan army. So you have to be polite and ask him. Being polite doesn't hurt. Honest!

Ok, to help you guys out, I have ran across with this a custom Swarmlord model that the wife and I had comission. So I contact GW directly after alot of fighting with our local gaming store and the offical take on this was as such. In 4th end you were required to have 70 percent GW product for it to be a GW model, now in 5th they had removed that ruling offically. Now, the only thing that is asked is it be a tasteful model and it has to be approved via "count as" and "WYSIWYG" So you couldn't say a Pepsi Can is a Drop pod or anything to that nature, but you could make up a reasonable one or buy one that was say forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if need be I can link the texts in my email from a GW rep.

wait, you had someone make a custom Swarmlord model(which i am sure looks fantastic. Pics?) and the locals weren't allowing it?


my suggestion is to not allow them to shoot with any models that don't have eyes. not eye lenses in helmets, not view ports, but eyes. Don't let them use flamers out of tank fire points. make sure EVERY Eldar model is completely WYSIWYG(down to grenades) and cite the WYSIWYG paragraph just before the lists section. next appoc game, ally with DH or WH and bring 15 lance bombardments.


if they apologize keep playing there and go back to playing how you normally do(Common sense and Rule of Cool).

if they don't, slap them with the rule book and find a new store.

Ya, the Swarmlord is in my Gallery, we haven't painted it only for the factor of, we can't use it around here =(

*takes a look*

Score


time to be a RAW lawyer.


the guy who won't play that likely has problems with the Swarmlord rules NOT the model. either way, BRB to the groin and Dark Eldar under the nails.

I don't know why some players get so bent out of shape about this. Personally, I suspect it's a class envy thing.

Anyhow, I don't see what the issue is here, at all.

1. Forge World is Games Workshop. They are located right in the same building complex as the rest of the HQ in England.
2. If you visit the FW website, the bottom of the screen clearly informs you that the site and content are owned by Games Workshop

Copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2000-2010. All Rights Reserved. Games Workshop, the Games Workshop logo, the Forge World, Warhammer and the Warhammer 40,000 device are either ®, TM and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2010, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved. Games Workshop Ltd, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. Registered in England and Wales - Company No. 01467092. VAT No. GB 580853421

3. The spines of the books themselves have a Games Workshop logo on them, just like my army books/codicies, rulebook
4. These books say "copyright Games Workshop" in them.
5. The books themselves make a point of saying that they are game legal.

Forge World is no different than any other Games Workshop product. They're completely legal, and the rabid deniers may not like them (because of balance, or jealousy, or class anger, or whatever),, but that doesn't change the basic facts. It's one more expansion in the 40k realm, one that's supposed to bring some variety and FUN. Remember FUN- that's kind of why people play GAMES in the first place.

This tiresome bickering back and forth over this stuff is insane.

Luna,

I have never seen an 'official ruling' on this. Mostly because I believe that the 21st century GW has 'do not say anything that might impede sales' coded into their genetics. Nor do I believe you will ever see one.

I would like, however, to throw my weight behind the observational discussion, and separate out the Forge World Miniatures from the Forge World Rules.

FW Rules:
Tournament: Whatever the Organizer is allowing. If nothing has been stated, then the default is 'No Forge World Rules'.
Casual Play: Allowed, but your opponent has the right to refuse to play you.

It is important to note that, in casual play, anyone has the right to refuse to play you, be it due to Forge World Rules, that they don't like IG Valkyries, or they hate your shirt.

FW Miniatures:
Tournament: Allowed, if they are a different model of an existing GW Codex Unit. The various 'patterns' of the Leman Russ Vindicator, as an example.
Casual Play: Allowed.

Again, as noted previously, people like to proxy in a Forge World unit for other things, because it am be cool or they're trying out new units, or, as I saw yesterday, they forgot their two demon princes, so borrowed a couple of dreads. Rar.

--B.

well i had a game today against a member of staff at my local store, i used my fw dkok commissar as a normal commissar
and my fw cadian shotguns as veterans with shotguns. The member of staff told me about his own dkok army and how he loved the models. i then remembered this thread so i though i would ask him for the answer. he told me it was really about the opponent but gw has recently (last week iirc) stated that dkok from the seige of vraks can be used. but he did make sure to note that you should bring alternativerules and/or models just incase you have a squiffy opponent

Captain Solon wrote:they're not legal.

they'd be considered in GW approved codeci then.

Good thing they are in GW approved books then.

Grey Templar wrote:*takes a look*

Score


time to be a RAW lawyer.


the guy who won't play that likely has problems with the Swarmlord rules NOT the model. either way, BRB to the groin and Dark Eldar under the nails.

I'd actually say the issue is the model. That thing is huge, as is the base it's on.

I do have to wonder what store it was that had the folks disallowing it, since he's in my neck of the woods apparently.

Melissia wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:they're not legal.

they'd be considered in GW approved codeci then.

Good thing they are in GW approved books then.

QFT now to start the dkok army with the free pdf.

DKoK simply has some different options then normal IG.

other then the options you can't use the basic troopers should be fine.




my view is..

you payed the dough and time to paint up these highly detailed models. you deserve the chance to use it.


@Kanluwen. yes, the base is larger. so it can get hit with Blast and templates easier. the model being larger is actually a hinderence as it will make getting cover extreamly difficult. it's the "Crawling Wraithlord" argument. if its crawling it can't shoot as well, if its frakkin huge then its easy to shoot it(which is what Nids are vulnerable to)

But by that same notion of the base being larger means it can be in combat with more models, and at the same time be in combat with them at a bigger distance than the standard Dreadnought based models we've seen, which limits his exposure to shooting.

And this is the Swarmlord we're talking about, after all. Why would you want him not actually in combat?

The shop I am refering to is a wonderful gaming store one of the best I have ever been too, they just have a requirement that a model is 70 percent or better, which was a former ruling of GW during 3rd and 4th editions from what I was told. The reason why they enforce this was due to the fact that they had folks coming in with pop bottles and saying they were drop pod, I can honestly said I wouldn't allow that in my personal games. Now if it was foam that you had shaped, painted and detail to make into something a spore that is a different story, but a can of coke you just finished drinking...I don't think so.

try and convince them that the model is fine.

if they still don't like it put it on a Dread base. a unwanted sacrifice, but better then scrapping the whole model.


if they still say it is too big remind them that makes it nearly impossable to get cover for it.